Concealment Power too powerful? Options

[Neraph]

I have seen in someone's signature in his DS posts a quote something like, "If a GM doesn't understand the hacking rules, hacking gets weaker. If a GM doesn't understand the magic rules, magic gets stronger." Perhaps a little black and white, but he does have a point. As a GM myself, I worry about work in the matrix, because I don't understand it (not having bothered to spend the time to figure it out), and welcome players' help when we go there. As a GM, I am not the least bit afraid of PCs with magic, and I don't have to go out of my way to gimp them. The world as written in the books already has it out for them.

Lurkeroutthere, 5th post of this thread.

[Saint Hallow]

Sounds like a normal game to me, no reason to get defensive and almost reverent all of a sudden.

Not defensive at all. Sorry, forgot to put a smiley on my previous post. Here you go... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) LOL!

[Irion]

@pbangarth

1) Use of Edge or not, repeated use of this level of magic will sooner or later kill the user. Russian roulette, anyone?

This is quite a lie. It won't if you have some dice to throw around.
Yes, theoretically the spirit could roll 12 hits out of 12 dices. This would translate into 24 DV. Sounds a lot. The chance is 1 to 500.000.
Yes, it might happen. So after maybe 500 times (Once per run should be often), translating to 5 to 10k karma. I guess with that you might even survive it.
And to be clear here: Everything short of heavy weapon does not call for force 12, force 9 would be more than enough.

2) The world in many places is antithetical to magic use, either in its own intrinsic magical nature, or because of the existence of all kinds of technology. NPCs know this. The tougher the NPCs, the more they know it.

Yes, if you go for a BC of 4 and more, Spirits are stopped in their track...

3) As per SR4A, page 192, "Magical skills and abilities produce an astral signature on anything affected
by them, which is detectable using assensing." So a force 12 spell or the summoning of a Force 12 spirit will leave a tell-tale signature for 12 hours, unless overtly erased. In a world in which magic over Force 3 is illegal for most people, this signature will draw the most lethal response available. No matter how tough your PC, someone/something in the world is tougher. Every time the spirit (the one whose signature links directly to the PC) does something magical, like Concealment, it leaves the same trace. "You want me to clean up after myself? That will be another service, sir."

Well, actually not really. The signature is only at the point you activated the spell/summoned the spirit etc.

And a signature is not that big of a problem.
Find siganture, memorize signature and find mage. Well, there are bigger threads, I guess...

[Seth]

I have seen in someone's signature in his DS posts a quote something like, "If a GM doesn't understand the hacking rules, hacking gets weaker. If a GM doesn't understand the magic rules, magic gets stronger." Perhaps a little black and white, but he does have a point. As a GM myself, I worry about work in the matrix, because I don't understand it (not having bothered to spend the time to figure it out), and welcome players' help when we go there. As a GM, I am not the least bit afraid of PCs with magic, and I don't have to go out of my way to gimp them. The world as written in the books already has it out for them.

Well said. I share your views.

None of the shadowrun systems are perfect. They all work OK though. If you find they are broken, then a reread of the rules or a question on this forum usually answers it. You will always get a flamewars around "spirits are broken", but personally I am finding that nothing is more "broken" than a sniper, and they exist in the real world, and are as deadly as the game portrays in the real world.

My personal list of broken stuff is:

• direct combat spells need a tiny tweak (it's only overcasting that causes problems)
• critter powers need to be easier to resist
• Pixies are too good
• Drakes aren't good enough

That's about it. Concealment is cool, but the bad guys use it too, and the perception die pool for most people is adequately high.

[Draco18s]

None of the shadowrun systems are perfect. They all work OK though. If you find they are broken, then a reread of the rules or a question on this forum usually answers it. You will always get a flamewars around "spirits are broken", but personally I am finding that nothing is more "broken" than a sniper, and they exist in the real world, and are as deadly as the game portrays in the real world.

Its not so much that the magic/matrix rules are broken so much as a GM that doesn't fully understands the rules doesn't know how to counter magic (i.e. using background count). Likewise one that doesn't understand the matrix doesn't know how to make it useful. We all tend to think of it being like the internet, but it's not.

[Marwynn]

Why would a Nigh Invulnerable God-like being want to serve such a squishy entity? You are absolutely nothing to him, literally. It is sheer hubris on the Mage's part to even think that he has a right to command such an Entity, let alone summon him. Spirits above a certain Power should ALWAYS Spend Edge to resist summoning. At our table, that Ranking is 4+. Some set it at Greater than the Mage's Magic Rating. I like our better. Either way does work.

Besides, Edge expenditure is at the whim of the GM. Spend it is my motto.

A Christian Theurgist begged a high archangel to come to his aid since the Black Magician had an Arch Devil (both Force 12) who he made some sort of bargain with: he prays so hard he bleeds. The Shaman calls on a powerful Elemental to defend him due to his years of service. The Blood Magician had a few vats of O positive.

Not every Spirit is belligerent or unwilling, even at that power. Not all summonings are viewed as degrading either.

This doesn't mean Magic can't severely cripple a game (master) that is unprepared for it.

[Draco18s]

A Christian Theurgist begged a high archangel to come to his aid since the Black Magician had an Arch Devil (both Force 12) who he made some sort of bargain with: he prays so hard he bleeds.

The mentalist projects forth the perfect vision of himself, literally pouring his soul into its creation and spilling blood as his physical body deteriorates in the presence of such self-perfection.

You get the idea.

[Neraph]

Not defensive at all. Sorry, forgot to put a smiley on my previous post. Here you go... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) LOL!

My friend has a quote along the lines of "Curse you, internet; your lack of conveying inflection has robbed me again!"

[Draco18s]

My friend has a quote along the lines of "Curse you, internet; your lack of conveying inflection has robbed me again!"

Indeed.

[Warlordtheft]

Suggestion regarding the original post. Instead of a negative dice modifier to the perciever, use it as a positve modifier to the the infiltrator.

By RAW though things to keep in mind:
Don't forget to add in the perceivers bonus's (magnification, untrasound, actively looking, etc, etc).
The difficulty of infiltrating from point A to point B (note it is not always a given that 1 hit=a successful infiltration roll).
Astral perception is different from physical, so modifers there are different.

If your players are using force 6 spirits willy nilly, they should be on runs with equal difficulty. From the one players response though, I don't think this is the case.

[LostProxy]

If your players are using force 6 spirits willy nilly, they should be on runs with equal difficulty. From the one players response though, I don't think this is the case.

We fought a force 12 spirit, a force 6 spirit, and then two spirits who could have been anywhere between 7-10. And we can't dodge ranged attacks.

Yes, they are of equal or greater difficulty.

[Irion]

And we can't dodge ranged attacks.

What do you mean by that?

[LostProxy]

House rule he mentioned earlier in this thread. There is no dodging ranged attacks. It's a rule from 3rd edition and offered as an optional rule in one of the books. Can't remember which.

To be absolutely clear what I mean is no Ranged attack Vs Reaction or dodge. Cover and what not still applies. But that's not much.

[pbangarth]

@pbangarth

This is quite a lie. It won't if you have some dice to throw around.

Come on, man. Contest an opinion or even the facts without calling a guy a liar.

Yes, theoretically the spirit could roll 12 hits out of 12 dices. This would translate into 24 DV. Sounds a lot. The chance is 1 to 500.000.
Yes, it might happen. So after maybe 500 times (Once per run should be often), translating to 5 to 10k karma. I guess with that you might even survive it.
And to be clear here: Everything short of heavy weapon does not call for force 12, force 9 would be more than enough.

Assuming the mage can deal with a Drain of 6 or so ( a pool of 18), the spirit doesn't need the extreme case of 12 hits. 8 or more should do nicely to give a DV of 16P, 6 of which are handled by the Drain resistance, the rest of which kill the mage. The statistics make it look unlikely. For example:

10 times ==> ~.02 chance of 8 or more happening
100 times ==> ~.18
500 times ==> ~.61
1000 times ==> ~.85

So sure you can say he's safe for hundreds of summonings, but it can happen on the first try, and sooner or later it will happen. My experience trying this kind of over-summoning is that sooner is more likely. Maybe I just have bad luck.

Yes, if you go for a BC of 4 and more, Spirits are stopped in their track...

... or any number of readily available technological solutions.

Well, actually not really. The signature is only at the point you activated the spell/summoned the spirit etc.

And at every point/subject where the spirit uses any of its powers. Yes, the particular Concealment power makes it hard to notice you, but if they do, the summoner/spirit is seriously marked.

And a signature is not that big of a problem.
Find siganture, memorize signature and find mage. Well, there are bigger threads, I guess...

Not much bigger threats than when the entire police magical squad is searching for you... you having broken a law so blatantly and with such power they fear you and send everything they have.

[Saint Hallow]

Not much bigger threats than when the entire police magical squad is searching for you... you having broken a law so blatantly and with such power they fear you and send everything they have.

Huh... I wonder who's on the FBI's top 100 most wanted list in SR 2070... what did they have to do in order to get on there?

[Irion]

@pbangarth

So sure you can say he's safe for hundreds of summonings, but it can happen on the first try, and sooner or later it will happen. My experience trying this kind of over-summoning is that sooner is more likely. Maybe I just have bad luck.

This would be a good point, if the run itself would not be a risk.
So you are about to choose:
2 percent chance to die in 10 times or about 50% chance to die on the run. (If the GM is using force 12 spirits make it a 100% chance to die)

And even with 16 physical. You will edge up your drain test and live. (Right, you may forget about the run and you will be eaten by the force 12 spirit of the opposition. But this would have happened if you did not try too.)

And at every point/subject where the spirit uses any of its powers. Yes, the particular Concealment power makes it hard to notice you, but if they do, the summoner/spirit is seriously marked.

Thats not that clear for sustained powers. If it is that way, you will get a lot of astral fingerprints all over the place. Still hard to find the mage it belongs too. Nearly impossible.
But it really does not matter, because it would be still the mark of the spirit. So the will need to find him on his metaplane. I would not walk into the metaplane of a force 12 guardian or fire spirit. (Have to check, maybe the search power might help..)

Not much bigger threats than when the entire police magical squad is searching for you... you having broken a law so blatantly and with such power they fear you and send everything they have.

Depends on your Gameworld. If spirits never use edge to resist summoning, this means they will be used. Maybe not force 12, but force 8,9 and 10.


Anything mundane to oppose a force 12 spirit has to be extreamly powerful.
The only gun, able to really hurt it, is a gauss rifle handled by a guy with quite a dicepool. What would this weapon do to any mundane runner short of several 100 Karma and ware worth in the millions? (And this weapon is only a danger, because the rules ignore how hard to handle it should be in confined space)

In short: A force 12 spirit is an "I WIN"-button only needed in situations of "you die".
If your GM is not out to teamkill the group, a force 9 spirit is enough. This thing is still immune to 80% of the weapons in the book.
And here the same stuff applys only with less drain.

[phlapjack77]

...snip...
SnS needs 7 net hits against a force 12 spirit. ( 21 dice)
Not to mention you would need to hit it first. A reaction from 14 to 16 (core book) means you are looking at about 35 to 37 dice.
Thats quite beyond the scope of a starting char...

Not really that important, I'd just like to add that the spirit wouldn't get a reaction or dodge either in their gameworld (I assume), so the dice pools for the character to damage the spirit wouldn't have to be as high as you say...

[Irion]

@phlapjack77
Yes, this is true. But the same is true for the spirit. So some force 12 firespirit would turn that guy to ashes first INI-Pass.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Anything mundane to oppose a force 12 spirit has to be extreamly powerful.
The only gun, able to really hurt it, is a gauss rifle handled by a guy with quite a dicepool. What would this weapon do to any mundane runner short of several 100 Karma and ware worth in the millions? (And this weapon is only a danger, because the rules ignore how hard to handle it should be in confined space)

Ummmmm... Not really.

ITNW for a Force 12 Spirit. 24
Gause Rifle: AP Half -4

That leaves that force 10 SPirit with exactly 8 Points of remaining ITNW. Gause Rifle does 9p + Net.
So, I net hit is 10P, soaked with Body +8 Dice. For a DP of 20 (Force 12 remember). the average soak is 3, and the Bought soak is 5. This will hurt that Force 12 Spirit, and that is only a single net hit. I am betting on more than a single net hit from a PC gunner who is going up against a Fore 12 Spirit (He probably is throwing 16-20 DIce after all).

Of course, the Spirit can dodge, for ~24 Dice (Dependant upon Type), but that means spirit does nothing else. Otherwise he only has ~12 Dice to React out of the way. My Money is on the Gunner at that point. And woe be unto him if the Gunner has 3 passes. Spirit loses at that point, because he is either disrupted or ineffective.

Of course, in OP's world, the Spirit gets no dodge at all. Yes, the Spirit ashes one opponent; But the others have the potential to swiss cheese the spirit.

Anyways... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Aerospider]

Ummmmm... Not really.

ITNW for a Force 12 Spirit. 24
Gause Rifle: AP Half -4

That leaves that force 10 SPirit with exactly 8 Points of remaining ITNW. Gause Rifle does 9p + Net.
So, I net hit is 10P, soaked with Body +8 Dice. For a DP of 20 (Force 12 remember). the average soak is 3, and the Bought soak is 5. This will hurt that Force 12 Spirit, and that is only a single net hit. I am betting on more than a single net hit from a PC gunner who is going up against a Fore 12 Spirit (He probably is throwing 16-20 DIce after all).

Of course, the Spirit can dodge, for ~24 Dice (Dependant upon Type), but that means spirit does nothing else. Otherwise he only has ~12 Dice to React out of the way. My Money is on the Gunner at that point. And woe be unto him if the Gunner has 3 passes. Spirit loses at that point, because he is either disrupted or ineffective.

Of course, in OP's world, the Spirit gets no dodge at all. Yes, the Spirit ashes one opponent; But the others have the potential to swiss cheese the spirit.

Anyways... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Don't forget Edge, which a Force 12 spirit should be using quite liberally.

DP 20 with an Edge of 12 gives an expected 13 hits on the soak test.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Don't forget Edge, which a Force 12 spirit should be using quite liberally.

DP 20 with an Edge of 12 gives an expected 13 hits on the soak test.

What does a DP of 20 and Edge 4 Give you for the Shooter's net hits? Spirit is still wounded. Do that 2 or 3 times, and Spirit is back on his home plane.

[Machiavelli]

A LOT of theory. Wow. The SR reality looks different, you know it. Arguing on the internet is like winning at the special olympics....i think you know the rest.^^

[pbangarth]

@pbangarth

This would be a good point, if the run itself would not be a risk.
So you are about to choose:
2 percent chance to die in 10 times or about 50% chance to die on the run. (If the GM is using force 12 spirits make it a 100% chance to die)

I agree wholeheartedly, as I did earlier.

And even with 16 physical. You will edge up your drain test and live.

I stayed away from talking about Edge, because then we start talking about spirits using Edge, and that's an old, acrimonious discussion.

Thats not that clear for sustained powers. If it is that way, you will get a lot of astral fingerprints all over the place. Still hard to find the mage it belongs too. Nearly impossible.
But it really does not matter, because it would be still the mark of the spirit. So the will need to find him on his metaplane. I would not walk into the metaplane of a force 12 guardian or fire spirit. (Have to check, maybe the search power might help..)

I don't think a sustained power leaves a trail wherever it goes. I do think whenever a spirit implements a power, it leaves a signature. And the spirit's signature is linked to the summoner's. Enough hits on assensing and you see that link.

Anything mundane to oppose a force 12 spirit has to be extreamly powerful. The only gun,

Whne I talk about technology, I don't just mean guns for shooting the spirit, I also means detectors, barriers, traps, diversions, etc. that are available to the most mundane of opponents. And as far as magical impediments, a simple ward is enough to screw up a lot of magical plans.

In short: A force 12 spirit is an "I WIN"-button only needed in situations of "you die".
If your GM is not out to teamkill the group, a force 9 spirit is enough. This thing is still immune to 80% of the weapons in the book. And here the same stuff applys only with less drain.

For the most part, I agree with this opinion. I firmly believe no such thing as an "I WIN" button exists in Shadowrun.

[pbangarth]

As an afterthought, not completely germane to this discussion though, I would like to draw your attention to THIS post.

[Neurosis]

Please bare with me, as I am still learning the SR4 system (I am a SR2 vet).


It seems to me that the Concealment Power as described in the core book is way too powerful and would allow the players to basically waltz in almost anywhere with impunity.


Let's take for example, a character with an infiltration skill of 4 and an agility stat of 5. Now let's imagine that a friendly Force 6 Spirit uses his Concealment power on this character. Basically, from that point on anyone trying to perceive that character on the physical plane would be subjected to a -6 dice modifier AND with whatever dice pool left, would have to beat the character's Infiltration 4 + Agility 5 on a perception roll? I can't think of many places that this fella would not be able to get into. Yeah, he probably would not be able to waltz into the Aztechnology Pyramid and a few similar places, but pretty much any other lesser places would be wide open to him. Or am I missing something here?

Now, let's say this guy gets really daring and manages to convince his mage friend with Magic Attribute of 6, to summon a Force 12 Spirit. Let's say the mage friend manages to summon a force 12 spirit (and survive). Now this force 12 spirit could conceal this guy on our example and cause anyone trying to perceive him to suffer a -12 penalty on perception tests, both physically and astrally.

Now, if this I described so far is correct, my question is: Where would'd this fellow be able to sneak into? Worse, with a Force 12 spirit with concealment power, I could potentially turn any crappy commuter plane into a Stealth bomber for hell.

I must be missing something, because this power seems to be too unbalanced to make the game practical. Please let me know what I might not be considering here. Thanks.

Yes this is how it works.

Yes my team always uses this tactic.

Yes they always manage to get caught anyway. : )

In short: A force 12 spirit is an "I WIN"-button only needed in situations of "you die".
If your GM is not out to teamkill the group, a force 9 spirit is enough. This thing is still immune to 80% of the weapons in the book. And here the same stuff applys only with less drain.

How does this 'win'? It gets two IPs manifested. And the bad guys don't even need to shoot at it. If they have any brains at all, they'll shoot at the damn mage. I just don't see how this prevents a GM from 'teamkilling' the group. (Which in my experience a GM would not do in the way that involved rolling dice unless a team had thoroughly earned it.)