Concealment Power too powerful? Options

[Aerospider]

What does a DP of 20 and Edge 4 Give you for the Shooter's net hits? Spirit is still wounded. Do that 2 or 3 times, and Spirit is back on his home plane.

Assuming that the shooter will almost certainly be rerolling hits (as opposed to adding Edge dice) he would expect 12 hits. In the context of the gaming group at the centre of this thread (i.e. no dodging ranged attacks) the spirit should expect a nearly fatal wound. By RAW it would more likely be only 2 or 3 boxes (given an Edged dodge roll providing an extra 7 expected hits). With a damage track of around 14 boxes that's very minor, but in either case the spirit can return 'fire' and hit the shooter with a 24 DP power (- injury mods) and that would be it.

Point of order - I'm not making the point that Force 12 spirits are unkillable or even necessarily broken, but if numbers are being crunched we must be thorough.

[Irion]

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
You got me wrong.
The gauss rifle is the only weapon that can hurt such a spirit.
You need quite a pool to get over reaction +1net hit. (Would be around 15-19) (visibility modifiers etc. ) (Yes, if the spirit is not able to dodge...)

But what does such a rifle do to your avarage runner? (24 Armor is not that easy to get as is a body of 10 to 14)

@pbangarth

I stayed away from talking about Edge, because then we start talking about spirits using Edge, and that's an old, acrimonious discussion.

Well, my point was, that spirits should use edge. (If they do not, the summoner still can. The one has nothing to do with the other)

I would go for: Edge = Force/2, spirits edge up the test on summoning and binding. Now a force 12 spirit throws 18 dice to resist. (And probably will be able to reroll 3)
Thats something you do not use light minded.
For a force 4 spirit it is 6 instead of 4 and he might reroll 1or 2. So not really a big deal

For the most part, I agree with this opinion. I firmly believe no such thing as an "I WIN" button exists in Shadowrun.

Well, of course there are runs to be made, were such a spirit is not the solution.

@Neurosis

How does this 'win'? It gets two IPs manifested. And the bad guys don't even need to shoot at it. If they have any brains at all, they'll shoot at the damn mage. I just don't see how this prevents a GM from 'teamkilling' the group. (Which in my experience a GM would not do in the way that involved rolling dice unless a team had thoroughly earned it.)

Because a mage who is able to summon a force 9,10,11 or 12 spirit is most of the time not able to fight Yes, some super focused builds who have never seen anything except their gun, are born rich with restricted gear etc...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
You got me wrong.
The gauss rifle is the only weapon that can hurt such a spirit.
You need quite a pool to get over reaction +1net hit. (Would be around 15-19) (visibility modifiers etc. ) (Yes, if the spirit is not able to dodge...)

But what does such a rifle do to your avarage runner? (24 Armor is not that easy to get as is a body of 10 to 14)

It is NOT the only weapon that can kill the spirit, unless you completely disallow weapons that by RAW would cause harm to that soirit.. Just thougt that I would point that out.

Well, if the Runner is armored, it likely reduces him to a few points of armor or less, and then he takes 10p+ just like the spirit.

I have a human Body Guard... Body 9, Armor 12. He survivced 6 Hits from a sniper using a Barrett and AV Rounds. It can be done. Without a lot of Edge even (Spent two to aid in soaking) Of course, he was shooting through the building (Penthouse/Elevator/Armored Glass/Reinforced Walls/Etc.) to hit us, but Meh. Everything is going to be situational. Anything can be killed. *shrug*

[Seerow]

I have a human Body Guard... Body 9, Armor 12.

How did you get a human with 9 body? The only way I can think of would be pretty roundabout and cheesier than I'd expect from you, no offense.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

How did you get a human with 9 body? The only way I can think of would be pretty roundabout and cheesier than I'd expect from you, no offense.

Full Borg Conversion (45 Limbs, Torso and Head Shells)... But not Drone.
Unfortunately, he does not have any armor in that conversion *Shakes Head*

Is there another way without Metagenic Surge, Genetic Optimization, and the Enhanced attribute Quality? RAW, I know, but pretty Cheesy.
Well, maybe not cheesy, but damned expensive.

[Seerow]

Full Borg Conversion... But not Drone.
Unfortunately, he does not have any armor in that conversion *Shakes Head*

Ah that would do it. Yeah that's kinda silly to get body on your limb replacements but not armor, given the armor is generally much more useful thanks to stacking.

I was thinking he was doing something silly like metagenetic improvement+genetic optimization+adrenal pump (or whatever the bio is that gives +1 to all physical), which is why I said it sounded too cheesy.





Anyway, back to your regularly scheduled topic about spirit powers.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Ah that would do it. Yeah that's kinda silly to get body on your limb replacements but not armor, given the armor is generally much more useful thanks to stacking.

I was thinking he was doing something silly like metagenetic improvement+genetic optimization+adrenal pump (or whatever the bio is that gives +1 to all physical), which is why I said it sounded too cheesy.

Anyway, back to your regularly scheduled topic about spirit powers.

Well, he can always wear armor. The capacity slots he had, he used for a lot of other necessary Things. He wears Either 10/6 armor in "Business Attire" or 12/7 Armor in "Camouflage Utilities." These could go a bit higher now that War and Attitude are out.
Yes, the other route is a bit cheesy.

[Seerow]

Well, he can always wear armor. The capacity slots he had, he used for a lot of other necessary Things. He wears Either 10/6 armor in "Business Attire" or 12/7 Armor in "Camouflage Utilities." These could go a bit higher now that War and Attitude are out.
Yes, the other route is a bit cheesy.

Even with Arsenal he could have gotten himself much higher than 12/7...especially with 9 body but that's besides the point.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Even with Arsenal he could have gotten himself much higher than 12/7...especially with 9 body but that's besides the point.

Yes, He could have. Blatantly obvious armor tends to leave him a little Obvious (Even more so than the visible cranial shell does). He tends to stay a bit low-key most of the time. But yes, he could wear some atrocious combinations of armor should he desire to do so.

[Udoshi]

I was thinking he was doing something silly like metagenetic improvement+genetic optimization+adrenal pump (or whatever the bio is that gives +1 to all physical), which is why I said it sounded too cheesy.

I dunno, I've occasionally considered making Heavy Weapons Guy in shadowrun - a regular old Human who meets the Body 8 minimum to fire Heavy Weapons without proper bracing from arsenal's More Ways to Die section.
Not even making him GOOD, just enough to take a typical heavy weapon trolls place on a team.

[Neraph]

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
You got me wrong.
The gauss rifle is the only weapon that can hurt such a spirit.
You need quite a pool to get over reaction +1net hit. (Would be around 15-19) (visibility modifiers etc. ) (Yes, if the spirit is not able to dodge...)

If you've paid attention to this thread than you'd understand that the group we're giving advice to does not allow Reaction or Dodge for firearms.

[Bodak]

How does this 'win'? It gets two IPs manifested. And the bad guys don't even need to shoot at it. If they have any brains at all, they'll shoot at the damn mage.

Manifesting has no effect on IPs. If it is manifesting, it still has the same number of IPs as it does when purely on the Astral plane, not manifesting. It won't care if goons shoot at it while it is only manifesting as it has no physical presence in that form - it's only a psychic projection to selected minds.

As you say though the mage, if physically present, is at a much greater risk from shooters - especially if identified as a mage. So always carry a cyberdeck and firearm - keep them guessing!

[Irion]

@Neraph
Yeah, which leads to the runners beeing dead one shot too. (Unless the took same real cheese to it. Yes I know, you play after rules no one would even think of, so I guess your PC could easy surive beeing shot at with a railgun several times... But if we go to cheeseland, ITNW does not care about armor penetration. (Which is quite reasonable anyway, because the bullets will pass through an airspirit anyway. So it would actually not be a factor.)

The avarage runner, not pulling some cheese, has maybe 9 to 20 points of armor and a body from 3 to 9.
Yeah, you could build goons who are a danger for a high force spirit but could be killed by a sam. Mostly by giving them low INI and close to no armor but high damage.
So you would need to summon low level spirits, which would still kill the goons and could easy be replaced.
Or your GM could allow a beeing with the brains of Einstein and the intuition of the mentalist (do not find a real world example right now) to use some tactics. Which would increase their "power" quite big time.

[Neraph]

@Neraph
Yeah, which leads to the runners beeing dead one shot too. (Unless the took same real cheese to it. Yes I know, you play after rules no one would even think of, so I guess your PC could easy surive beeing shot at with a railgun several times... But if we go to cheeseland, ITNW does not care about armor penetration. (Which is quite reasonable anyway, because the bullets will pass through an airspirit anyway. So it would actually not be a factor.)

I take offense and this is not accurate. Everything I say is pure RAW (or can be allowed by it) except when I talk to someone about a houserule they have. R4 freeware Skillsofts? According to the sidebar on page 110 of Unwired it's perfectly legal. Using the Calling rules as an AI in a drone body? Again, completely RAW. Getting Inhabitation Spirits to Inhabit weapons a-la Bloodmourne? Calling rules say it's RAW.

Saying ItNW (= Hardened Armor = Armor) is not affected by AP? Not RAW.

The avarage runner, not pulling some cheese, has maybe 9 to 20 points of armor and a body from 3 to 9.

The Horseman of the Apocalypse. A Bod 1 character can have 32 armor just from it. I fail to see how using the Modification Rules as presented is "cheese."

[Yerameyahu]

Every single thing you mentioned is the definition of cheese. It doesn't mean 'illegal'. And the more of those things you combine, the more exponentially cheesy it gets.

[pbangarth]

And the more of those things you combine, the more exponentially cheesy it gets.

Mmmmm... creamy, smelly, Québecois, exponential cheese. Mmmmm.....

[Draco18s]

Mmmmm... creamy, smelly, Québecois, exponential cheese. Mmmmm.....

Now I want to design a game system (likely intended for a computer multiplayer pvp) that uses this concept of "exponential cheese."

Such that everything is so horribly overpowered and seemingly unintentional stacking that it should not be balanced but it is.
Simply due to the fact that if you make yourself, say, "immune to bullets" then the other player(s) pull out melee or explosives (which every class will have one or the other, or both at the expense of not having bullets).

Is it cheating to be immune to bullets? Yes. Is it fair? Yes.

"Fine, you're immune to bullets. That's ok, I've got explosives."

[Neraph]

Every single thing you mentioned is the definition of cheese. It doesn't mean 'illegal'. And the more of those things you combine, the more exponentially cheesy it gets.

I still don't see it. Choosing an Assault Rifle over a pistol is then "cheese," as is choosing Ex-Ex ammo over standard. If you see something allowed by RAW and utilize it I fail to see how it is "cheesy." Being a gun-adept is "cheese." Using tasers is "cheesy" because you ignore most of their armor. Dealing Stun damage to a Troll is "cheese" because you are targeting their weaker Condition Monitor.

It's not "cheese" - it is use of superior tactics.

[Draco18s]

It's not "cheese" - it is use of superior tactics.

So riding around in a segway cocoon with tank armor is "superior tactics"?

[Yerameyahu]

Neraph, that's simply the definition. That's what the word means. It's not a choice between 'cheese' and 'superior tactics'. It's the *over* use of legal-but-optimal tactics, *usually* the result of poor game balance and/or insufficient synergy oversight. 'A' is fine, 'B' is fine, 'C' is fine, but 'ABC' is problematic for the *game*. It's a sliding scale, a continuum, but the more extreme, the more obviously 'cheesy' it is; and, as I said, it multiplies as you combine them.

The object is not to win. It is to have a fun game in a world of balanced challenges. 'Cheese' in any game creates un-fun monocultures; cookie-cutters, noob-tubes, and so on.

[Neraph]

So riding around in a segway cocoon with tank armor is "superior tactics"?

Absolutely. With a Full Mechanical Arm or a Weapon Mount you can still attack also and you do all of this with some of the least threat to your character.

In fact, in Ragewind's 200+ armor megadrone instance, the only way I could think of to "kill" him was to collapse a building on him (then War! came out and they had an "it dies" button in it). He and the drone would survive, but enough time under that wreckage would eventually be the end of both of them.

When faced with things that look "out of the box" you must think that way yourself to overcome them. It is no different than the revolution that firearms had on "conventional" warfare or how guerilla warefare has revolutionized the old "stand in a line and each side take turns shooting until no one moves anymore" warfare.

EDIT:

Neraph, that's simply the definition. That's what the word means. It's not a choice between 'cheese' and 'superior tactics'. It's the *over* use of legal-but-optimal tactics, *usually* the result of poor game balance and/or insufficient synergy oversight. 'A' is fine, 'B' is fine, 'C' is fine, but 'ABC' is problematic for the *game*. It's a sliding scale, a continuum, but the more extreme, the more obviously 'cheesy' it is; and, as I said, it multiplies as you combine them.

Yes, but people insist that "Vehicle" + "Armor" + "Rigger Coccoon" = cheese.... but that is exactly what the rules allow for! In fact, that's what the logical end to those rules is!

[Irion]

@Neraph

Saying ItNW (= Hardened Armor = Armor) is not affected by AP? Not RAW.

Well, it would break the thread to discuss it, but both is supportable.
But strictly RAW immunity ignores net hits, see below why:
(Like I said, the thing about armor penetration is also missing... But it is only in brackets if you look at hardend armor. So there are those two interpretations. But if your really go RAW without thinking, immunities ignore AP)

This
... meaning that if the Damage Value
does not exceed the Armor, then the attack automatically
does no damage.

If the modified Damage Value of an attack does not exceed
the Armor rating (modified by Armor Penetration), then it
bounces harmlessly off the critter; don’t even bother to make
a Damage Resistance Test.

Getting Inhabitation Spirits to Inhabit weapons a-la Bloodmourne? Calling rules say it's RAW.

But it might not be working like you assume it is working....

(I do not know who said it but: Magic is only as long overpowered as long as the GM does not know the rules.

A Bod 1 character can have 32 armor just from it.

And nothing is stopping a GM from hitting you with encumbrance rules for that. (Nothing in the book says, that cyber or natural armor does not count against this limit. The only thing really mentioned is magic armor in the FAQ)

[Critias]

When faced with things that look "out of the box" you must think that way yourself to overcome them. It is no different than the revolution that firearms had on "conventional" warfare or how guerilla warefare has revolutionized the old "stand in a line and each side take turns shooting until no one moves anymore" warfare.

Unless things are so "outside the box" that to "revolutionize" anything would mean an end to the RPG that people felt they were signing up to play. Bringing WWII-era green army men to a wargame where people were planning a Napoleonics battle might mean that (to you) you've got a revolutionary tactical, strategic, armor, and munitions advantage; but it might also mean (to them) that you're a prick who's ruining the game for other people.

And so what counts as "cheese" versus what counts as "superior tactics" varies from game to game, and game table to game table. Agree on it for yourself, your friends, and your game group. Bickering about it on the internet as though the terms can be handily defined in a universal fashion is just a waste of time and a mood-wrecker.

[KarmaInferno]

"Cheese" is kinda subjective.

However, if you are doing something for the sake of "power" that the designers arguably had not considered or intended, it's possibly verging on "cheese". Even if the designers DID intend it, if your fellow players and GM are rolling their eyes, it's possibly getting into cheese-land.

It also matters what kinda campaign you are playing. if everyone has dice pools in the 16-20 range, then a 22 probably isn't too cheesy. But a 22 in a average 12 DP game likely is.

For example, I play a mystic adept rigger pixie in Shadowrun Missions. She's a Voodoo-variant tradition. He dice pools are in the 16-24 range when the campaign averages in the 12-14 range. She effectively has 40+ armor at most times and is pretty much immune to gas, disease, and other biological-affecting attacks. She gets to fold most combat and physical skills into Gunnery or Pilot. People roll their eyes at the character constantly. I freely admit the character is utterly, completely cheesetastic. I am under no illusions on that. She's pink-mohawk personified.

My other character is an elderly merc character. He is optimized nine ways to sunday, yet I haven't had anyone so much as raise an eyebrow at him. This is because I deliberately picked only optimizations for him that cannot be argued against, ones that are clear, unambiguous, and without any grey. He's my "black trenchcoat" serious-serious character, so I keep on the conservative side for him.

There is a thin line between "Cheese" and "Optimization". But a good gauge on if you've crossed it is how other players and GMs react.



-k

[Mardrax]

It also matters what kinda campaign you are playing. if everyone has dice pools in the 16-20 range, then a 22 probably isn't too cheesy. But a 22 in a average 12 DP game likely is.

DP doesn't always say that much. In a game with DPs of 16 all 'round, the guy who has 16 drain resist dice has probably been trying hardest to get there.