Concealment Power too powerful? Options

[Draco18s]

EDIT:
Yes, but people insist that "Vehicle" + "Armor" + "Rigger Coccoon" = cheese.... but that is exactly what the rules allow for! In fact, that's what the logical end to those rules is!

Rigger Cocoons are for riggers not for mounted vehicular weaponry piloted by a gunnery adept.

[Zaranthan]

Rigger Cocoons are for riggers not for mounted vehicular weaponry piloted by a gunnery adept.

"Rigger" cocoons are nicknamed after the people who are usually in them. There's nothing stopping you from tossing the VIP you're extracting into it to keep them safe from stray gunfire (and prevent them from escaping at the same time).

In fact, sticking your gunnery adept teammate in there to handle the guns while you focus on driving is a fantastic idea! Not only can you each specialize in your roles harder, if somebody forces a crash test, you don't lose an action's worth of return fire trying to stay on the road.

[Yerameyahu]

It's all about the combinations, as I said. A normal driver in a normal car, that's fine. When it's a pixie in a cocoon in a motorcycle (arguably!) converted into a tank mech, *that's* an issue.

Neraph, it will never be relevant to argue 'the rules allow it'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) And the logical *extremes* of game rules tend to be problematic, because rules aren't perfect.

[Neraph]

@Neraph

Well, it would break the thread to discuss it, but both is supportable.
But strictly RAW immunity ignores net hits, see below why:
(Like I said, the thing about armor penetration is also missing... But it is only in brackets if you look at hardend armor. So there are those two interpretations. But if your really go RAW without thinking, immunities ignore AP)

Disagree. We can start another thread on it if you want.

But it might not be working like you assume it is working....

(I do not know who said it but: Magic is only as long overpowered as long as the GM does not know the rules.

Eh, that's why you Bind it. Then it works like you think it does.

And nothing is stopping a GM from hitting you with encumbrance rules for that. (Nothing in the book says, that cyber or natural armor does not count against this limit. The only thing really mentioned is magic armor in the FAQ)

Except that encumberance only applies to worn armor. You add the vehicle's armor to yours, but you're not wearing the vehicle.

EDIT:

Neraph, it will never be relevant to argue 'the rules allow it'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) And the logical *extremes* of game rules tend to be problematic, because rules aren't perfect.

He started it. Kind of. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Irion]

@Neraph

Disagree. We can start another thread on it if you want.

There is nothing to discuss. Once it is the modified DV, the other time it is not. I really no not see any room for a RAW-discussion here. (RAI there is, granted)

Except that encumberance only applies to worn armor.

Well, it is never stated like that.

You add the vehicle's armor to yours, but you're not wearing the vehicle.

The vehicle is " wearing" the armor, and guess what it is limited by.

RAW discussions with you are impossible in my experience. You go from "I am right, show me where the rules say I am wrong, explicitly".
Meaning you shift the burden of prove to the other side and expect them to prove a negativ. Thats like proving you did not do something. Mostly it is impossible if you did not plan for it ahead.
It is useless to have a discussion like that, because you could argue that adding red strips to an car makes it go faster. I could not prove the rules say it does not.

[Traul]

Absolutely. With a Full Mechanical Arm or a Weapon Mount you can still attack also and you do all of this with some of the least threat to your character.

Before calling it superior or even tactics, you should define the objective. What good does a minitank do to a runner? I don't want to run with someone who cannot climb stairs, fit through the side exits, hide in the blind spot of the corridor cameras,...

With non-lethal weapons instead of an LMG, it could make a nice riot control tool, though. Much more flexible than a Citymaster.

[Zaranthan]

I don't want to run with someone who cannot climb stairs, fit through the side exits, hide in the blind spot of the corridor cameras,...

The Walker Mode mod handles stairs just fine. As for hiding, this is a "big guns" sort of setup. You wouldn't bring it with you unless you were expecting to break out the Heavy Weapons dice.

With non-lethal weapons instead of an LMG, it could make a nice riot control tool, though. Much more flexible than a Citymaster.

Instead? What's this "instead" business? They make gel rounds for machine guns, too. Nice, big ones with powder charges that still lower their targets' armor ratings.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The Walker Mode mod handles stairs just fine. As for hiding, this is a "big guns" sort of setup. You wouldn't bring it with you unless you were expecting to break out the Heavy Weapons dice.


Instead? What's this "instead" business? They make gel rounds for machine guns, too. Nice, big ones with powder charges that still lower their targets' armor ratings.

Just so you know, Gel Rounds are NOT Non-Lethal, they are just Less Lethal. Especially when fired from "Nice Big Machine Guns with Powder Charges that still lower their Target's Armor Ratings."

[Zaranthan]

You're just as likely to die from a taser hit, or a bunch of flash-bangs, or anything else that does a whole mess of Stun damage at once.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You're just as likely to die from a taser hit, or a bunch of flash-bangs, or anything else that does a whole mess of Stun damage at once.

Yes, you are... Which was the point. Non-Lethal is a Myth.

[Traul]

SR4 has freeze foam for such circumstances.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

SR4 has freeze foam for such circumstances.

True, forgot about that...

[Seerow]

Stairs still exist in 2070? I thought it was all elevators now.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Stairs still exist in 2070? I thought it was all elevators now.

They do indeed... The corps did not tear down all the slums to provide Elevators to the SINless after all.

[Yerameyahu]

Fire code.

[Draco18s]

As for hiding, this is a "big guns" sort of setup.

Is it, though?

Before calling it superior or even tactics, you should define the objective.

Precisely. ShadowRun isn't a game of winning. It's a game of losing as slowly as possible.

And while a tank wins combat, it isn't the best for not losing.

[Paul]

Stairs still exist in 2070? I thought it was all elevators now.

I fail to see any reason for them not exist. People, even in 2072, are still people. Ladder wells, or stairways , are more than just functional in some cases they are aesthetically pleasing in some cases.

[Zaranthan]

Is it, though?

Why else would you need 30 armor?

[Irion]

Stairs existed for over 2000 years now, I guess this won't change to 2070.
If you have legs, stairs are just a great invention.

[Yerameyahu]

I assume he was joking. You guys are silly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Personally, all my characters have Hydraulic Jacks; they just leap to their 3rd floor flat.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I assume he was joking. You guys are silly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Personally, all my characters have Hydraulic Jacks; they just leap to their 3rd floor flat.

Cuts down on the walking anyways. Also good for leaving as well; just step off the landing onto the sidewalk. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Zaranthan]

Pfft, hydraulics are so last year. Every place worth living in has a lighter-than-air leather chair out front.

[Seerow]

I assume he was joking. You guys are silly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Personally, all my characters have Hydraulic Jacks; they just leap to their 3rd floor flat.

Good point. Our Walker tank should definitely have hydraulic jacks and 9 strength in its cyberlegs, for maximum jumping capability.

[Yerameyahu]

Totally. Except walker mode isn't cyberlegs. Vehicles can only take arms, AFAIK.

[Seerow]

Totally. Except walker mode isn't cyberlegs. Vehicles can only take arms, AFAIK.

Are you sure? I was under the impression Walker Mode granted the equivalent of cyberlegs, just like Mechanical Arm granted the equivalent of cyberarms.