Concealment Power too powerful? Options

[ikarinokami]

Nope no dodge skill or reaction roll on firearms. No stick and shock. A fire fight will get you killed. Fighting spirits will get you killed. Stay hidden, and run like hell if you get spotted.

[Aerospider]

So it is the same result as usally:
Summoning is broken!
It is in no way sane that a stupid little fucker with 50 Karma is able to command a beeing godlike intelligenz just for the heck of it.
A Force 12 Spirit gets an intellect of 24 (kombination of Logic and Intuition).
Thats beyond even the most augmented human. A Pixi might be able to get that high, if you go for crome critters and genetically altered pixies.

And you know, the powers do also scale with the force.
Concealmet is broken to begin with. No defance against it, you do not even need to know about the guy you are hitting with this.
It hits all kinds of perception. I mean a simple troll does not care about the camelion suite. Concealment reduces his dice too.

Broken spirit + broken power =broken? How would have thought of that?


So if I get you group problem right, the GM is abusing high force spirits as is the group. Maybe both of you should stop doing that, because there is no way a Sam is able do do anything against a force 12 spirit. (Well, there are very special builds for sams out there, who can....)

It's not much of a challenge to show something as broken if you don't factor in any of the negative aspects. Not very enlightening either.

A Force 12 spirit will deal an average of 8 physical drain, assuming the "stupid little fucker" doesn't have Magic 12. Specifically, there's a 61% chance of at least 8P, 37% chance of at least 10P and 18% chance of at least 12P, at which point we're at instant death levels if the drain roll isn't good. And that's assuming the spirit doesn't use Edge, which it really would.

For players, particularly starting ones, this is a really big deal – especially since a lot of BP/Karma needs to be sunk into the summoning pool just to have a reliable chance of achieving some net hits in order to actually make use of the spirit. And you might only need 50 Karma to be able to do it (not quite sure how you came to this, since Magic 6 alone is 50 BP minimum) but if you don't pile the BP/Karma into your drain attributes too then your prospects are even worse.

For the megas? They'll want bound spirits for their patrols (since security is constant whilst infiltration is ad hoc) and binding a Force 12 spirit is even more unfeasible. You're now looking at an 74% chance of at least 14P drain and 58% chance of at least 16P drain, again without Edge. The expense of a mage who has the minimum Magic rating to even try is very high, so no corp is ever going to put their wage-mages' lives at such risk on this level of defence.

To surmise – yes, a Force 12 spirit should not be expected in any kind of corporate security that isn't guarding something that will bring down the entire AAA on its own. But it is not broken that magicians are able to dabble in the great power of spirits because the costs and risks are also great. The balance may not be quite right for you, but a one-sided argument focused on the most extreme and rare of cases is not a good one.

[Seriously Mike]

Nope no dodge skill or reaction roll on firearms. No stick and shock. A fire fight will get you killed. Fighting spirits will get you killed. Stay hidden, and run like hell if you get spotted.

Well now that's weird, since you specifically have a reaction roll against being shot and if you declare Full Defense, you can add Dodge to that (SR4, p. 151). And that, kids, is the difference between a Killer Game Master and a schmuck that can't even be bothered to read the bloody rulebook.

[Machiavelli]

A thermal smoke grenade + a flash-pak + a loud explosion wil give perception modifiers, but they won't be subtle ways to get past guards.

The same might be said about the concealment power. A Force 12 spirit manipulates the environment in order to conceal the target, giving a -12 perception modifier to notice it. To grant such a high modifier, the concealment effect might be pretty obvious.

???? You are joking, aren´t you? Blade...master of english humor and sarcasm.^^ ....."so unsuspicious that you are flashy again"....funny.

[ikarinokami]

Well now that's weird, since you specifically have a reaction roll against being shot and if you declare Full Defense, you can add Dodge to that (SR4, p. 151). And that, kids, is the difference between a Killer Game Master and a schmuck that can't even be bothered to read the bloody rulebook.

Its a house rule. Full defense and reaction is still allowed on melee and thrown weapons but not on firearms, indirect combat spells or elemental power attacks. The game is extremely lethal. We know the rules. The Gm just likes a very lethal game.

This post has been edited by ikarinokami: Sep 12 2011, 12:36 PM

[Mardrax]

Its a house rule. Full defense and reaction is still allowed on melee and thrown weapons but not on firearms, indirect combat spells or elemental power attacks. The game is extremely lethal. We know the rules. The Gm just likes a very lethal game.

And really, (ab)use of options to stay out of said combat is what it results in.
For the players: don't forget the chameleon suit with thermal dampening for another -4 on normal perception and -6 on thermal. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[KarmaInferno]

Its a house rule. Full defense and reaction is still allowed on melee and thrown weapons but not on firearms, indirect combat spells or elemental power attacks. The game is extremely lethal. We know the rules. The Gm just likes a very lethal game.

Here we go again. If you're discussing house rules, please say so up front, otherwise everyone will think you are discussing the rules as written and confusion will abound.




-k

[Machiavelli]

KarmaInferno is right. If you don´t like to dodge, play SR3. ^^

[camberiu]

wait, what dodge has to do with the concealment power? How did this discussion veer into that? Whatever dodge is allowed or not has NOTHING TO DO with the concealment power discussion. Just wanted to make that clear.

[Critias]

wait, what dodge has to do with the concealment power? How did this discussion veer into that? Whatever dodge is allowed or not has NOTHING TO DO with the concealment power discussion. Just wanted to make that clear.

Except that it pretty obviously does, because one of the players brought up the lack of dodging as the reason they're being so concerned with stealth and perception (IE, "abusing" the concealment power). You're insisting that the AIDS epidemic has nothing to do with condom usage, basically. If your players are terrified of getting into a fight, it's only natural they're going to find everything they can find that increases their methods of avoiding those fights.

[Machiavelli]

Sometimes you bring it down to the point...i like that.^^

[camberiu]

If your players are terrified of getting into a fight, it's only natural they're going to find everything they can find that increases their methods of avoiding those fights.

I have no problem with them being terrified of firefights. I have no problem with them doing everything they can to avoid those fights. I am all for them trying to be as stealthy, discreet and "black ops" as possible. I just want to make sure we are reading, interpreting and using the concealment rules correctly. I don't see what the discussion of the correct use of the concealment rules has anything to do with dodge.

[Saint Hallow]

First off, let me say sorry for omitting some info here. We appreciate the info people are giving us about spirit powers & such...

1. GM has decided to make the game more lethal, a la SR3 combat rules regarding firearms. No Dodge or Reaction rolls to avoid gunfire, Indirect Spells, & other forms of high-speed ranged attacks.
2. You are right the GM has NOT thought about ways to circumvent our mage(s) from summoning a really powerful spirit & having it use its Concealment powers on us & other abilities to overcome a majority of obstacles.
3. I feel the things we have done were in reaction to prior runs we had, in which we failed utterly, due to being quickly overwhelmed by the GM's use of op-forces. 1 of our very first games had us going against a squad of Red Samurai in a VTOL. There was also a dragon in another session.
4. Some of you have brought some good points about how Conceallment doesn't work against pressure plates, laser tripwires, MAD scanners, or cameras focused on other things than people.
5. The Concealment power is rather vague on if it's Physical or Mana based & agaisnt which sense it applies to. So far, from what we can tell, Concealment affects visual & hearing. We haven't tried taste, touch, or smell.
6. I think a majority of the things we have NOT encountered (on the technical side of things) is due to fact we lack a Hacker & Rigger. So B&E stuff that require technical skills have been out of our domain.

I saw a majority of people were in agreement that Spirit powers are awesomely overwhelming & powerful. Magic (when strong enough) means you can do anything.

[Traul]

The problem is not Concealment, it is Concealment from a Force 12 Spirit. Players are not supposed to summon such a beast on a regular basis, and when they do, it is certainly not supposed to be to cast Concealment. It is your houserule that made the drain from a Force 12 spirit look like the safe solution.

Concealment is good against astral perception, it is good because it stacks with gear, but it is not more powerful than gear as long as the mage does not oversummon.

6. I think a majority of the things we have NOT encountered (on the technical side of things) is due to fact we lack a Hacker & Rigger. So B&E stuff that require technical skills have been out of our domain.

B&E does not require a lot of skill: the tools almost work on their own, but they are expensive. A decent logic and a couple of ranks in Hardware should be enough, so it's an easy branch even for an hermetic mage. The hacker's job is more to shut the sensors down.

[Saint Hallow]

We have no houserule regarding drain. Our mage is uber-specialized, & such has always somehow avoided suffering any type of major drain. How she has been able to summon force 12 sapirits is beyond me. I don't say anything b/c I wanna live & hope all my runs are milk runs with a Force 12 backing us up. As I posted before, it seems with Magic, you can do anything... get it high enough & powerful enough that is.

[Traul]

We have no houserule regarding drain.

Let me rephrase that: it is the no dodge houserule that made taking the drain from a Force 12 Spirit look safer than risking to get spotted.

[Critias]

As I posted before, it seems with Magic, you can do anything... get it high enough & powerful enough that is.

Well, if your group sees mundane combat as an automatic failure and you don't have a rigger or a hacker (so that you GM is ignoring electronics and technology, pretty much) then sure. You guys are then going to (naturally) see magic (the only staple of the setting that remains) as the answer to all life's little problems.

[ikarinokami]

I survived the summoning on the force 12 spirit because of luck. the GM rolled one 1 hit on the opposed test.

I usally stick with a force 6 spirit. Again in the context the ONLY reason we lived is because i had a force 12 spirit. it was not overkill, and it and oursevles barely made it out alive. Yes our opposition was that intense.

And saint hollow is right, i really don't like summoning that much, but we didnt have a hacker or a rigger, or anyway to deal with tech. we did a few runs without summoning, and needless to say, it did not go well, a hairs breath from a TPK.

To Me the game is working about right, if you are on a run and you get caught, the likelyhood of death and a TPK is high.

We are definately applying the concealment rules correctly. as for being overpowered, i dont think so. There are counter measures like wards. We have another house rule, where attacking disrupts the power.

The majority of time on our runs, is spent planning, and thinking of ways to make quietest and most undectable entry possible, and to leave unnoticed. and for that we use, our magic, every tech, and every skill and lot time to make that endevour possible.

This post has been edited by ikarinokami: Sep 12 2011, 04:30 PM

[Fortinbras]

Don't forget that to use the Critter powers literally is against the rules.

The game mechanics given for the powers below are not intended
as hard and fast rules, but as guidelines for the gamemaster. Players
should never be absolutely certain of the capabilities of a critter, particularly
Awakened ones. There is always a chance that a power may work
slightly differently for one particular paracritter, especially one designated
as a prime runner critter. Uncertainty is a wonderful dramatic tool.

If you play the Critter powers as written, you aren't playing by the rules as written. If that helps to scale it down or interpret the ability of what ever you like.

[DamienKnight]

First... Force 12 spirits have 12 edge... they are almost always going to use at least one point of that on the summoning test. Force 12 spirits KILL mages.

Second.. Concealment can always be beaten by a spirit of equal force. Spirits have intuition = force, and perception= force max of 6. A force 6 spirit will have 12 perception dice, with 6 left over to spot another force 6 spirit after concealment is factored in.

It is very powerful. It gives magic a ridiculous edge over anything physical. Spirits are pwn.

If you are having difficulty accepting the unbalanced spirit powers, here are two house rules I recommend:

1. Concealment grants bonus dice to stealth tests, instead of reducing opponents perception dice.

2. Mages can use their banishing dice as a kind of counter-spelling again spirit powers.

The second rule makes banishing an actually useful skill, and still only adds a few dice to defend against what is usually Spirit Force x 2, so its not unbalancing.

[Seriously Mike]

Uhhh... Isn't the drain value a constant you have to soak with Willpower+Logic? My guess is that mage thought about that in advance and has at least decent pool for that, like 7-8 dice. But it still can tear the mage's ass off, pretty literally.

[Draco18s]

Spirits have intuition = force, and perception= force max of 6.

Uh. Spirit skill ratings aren't capped...A force 12 spirit has, quite literally, a Perception skill rating of 12.

[Nath]

Otherwise, one Magician with Detect Life spell or Detect Magic spell (which is gonna pick up the spirit itself). In this case, it is not a Perception Test, it's a Resistance Test, Spellcasting+Magic against Willpower+Counterspelling.

Detect Life doesn't pick up spirits.

Yes. Detect Life will instead pick up the invoker or his friends, if they did intend on using Concealment to sneak in.

[ikarinokami]

First... Force 12 spirits have 12 edge... they are almost always going to use at least one point of that on the summoning test. Force 12 spirits KILL mages.

Second.. Concealment can always be beaten by a spirit of equal force. Spirits have intuition = force, and perception= force max of 6. A force 6 spirit will have 12 perception dice, with 6 left over to spot another force 6 spirit after concealment is factored in.

It is very powerful. It gives magic a ridiculous edge over anything physical. Spirits are pwn.

If you are having difficulty accepting the unbalanced spirit powers, here are two house rules I recommend:

1. Concealment grants bonus dice to stealth tests, instead of reducing opponents perception dice.

2. Mages can use their banishing dice as a kind of counter-spelling again spirit powers.

The second rule makes banishing an actually useful skill, and still only adds a few dice to defend against what is usually Spirit Force x 2, so its not unbalancing.

spirits using edge on a summoning test seems alot lame to me. on a binding test sure, but for a summoning test?

[ikarinokami]

Uhhh... Isn't the drain value a constant you have to soak with Willpower+Logic? My guess is that mage thought about that in advance and has at least decent pool for that, like 7-8 dice. But it still can tear the mage's ass off, pretty literally.

no the drain value is not constant. its the number of hits it rolls on an opposed test x2. its dice pool is its force. so again, i got very lucky. the gm could have roll 12 in which case it is 24p. again it would not have mattered because if i hadnt summoned it, we were going to die.