Concealment Power too powerful? Options

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

spirits using edge on a summoning test seems alot lame to me. on a binding test sure, but for a summoning test?

Why would a Nigh Invulnerable God-like being want to serve such a squishy entity? You are absolutely nothing to him, literally. It is sheer hubris on the Mage's part to even think that he has a right to command such an Entity, let alone summon him. Spirits above a certain Power should ALWAYS Spend Edge to resist summoning. At our table, that Ranking is 4+. Some set it at Greater than the Mage's Magic Rating. I like our better. Either way does work.

Besides, Edge expenditure is at the whim of the GM. Spend it is my motto.

[Critias]

I'm not normally an advocate of Spirits boning the PC by spending Edge to resist a summoning test -- but when someone's summoning a powerful spirit (like they just were) and that spirit flubs it and rolls just a single success out of twelve dice? Yeah. I think it's perfectly reasonable for the GM to go ahead and have it plink away and Edge point, to reroll those failures.

[X-Kalibur]

Screw the sensors I just set monowire all over my hallways then all you have to do is follow the blood.

I like this plan.

[ikarinokami]

Why would a Nigh Invulnerable God-like being want to serve such a squishy entity? You are absolutely nothing to him, literally. It is sheer hubris on the Mage's part to even think that he has a right to command such an Entity, let alone summon him. Spirits above a certain Power should ALWAYS Spend Edge to resist summoning. At our table, that Ranking is 4+. Some set it at Greater than the Mage's Magic Rating. I like our better. Either way does work.

Besides, Edge expenditure is at the whim of the GM. Spend it is my motto.

it's lame for the same reason that offering 10 years jail and 2.5 years post release supervision for Criminal Sale of controlled substance in third to both the guy with the book lenght rap sheet and the guy with the first arrest.

it's just tacky, can you do it sure, but that doesnt make it right.

[Aerospider]

it's lame for the same reason that offering 10 years jail and 2.5 years post release supervision for Criminal Sale of controlled substance in third to both the guy with the book lenght rap sheet and the guy with the first arrest.

it's just tacky, can you do it sure, but that doesnt make it right.

Is it equally tacky for the spirit to use its own Edge to help with fulfilling the summoner's wishes?

[ikarinokami]

I'm not normally an advocate of Spirits boning the PC by spending Edge to resist a summoning test -- but when someone's summoning a powerful spirit (like they just were) and that spirit flubs it and rolls just a single success out of twelve dice? Yeah. I think it's perfectly reasonable for the GM to go ahead and have it plink away and Edge point, to reroll those failures.

i guess we will have to agree to disagree on this. why you would bone a player summoning a level 12 spirit the shadowrun equivilent of a hail mary pass, when they just got attacked by level 12 spirit, a level 6 spirit. more are l on the way, and not to mention a group of high level soldiers (6) on way each one more than enough to take out the team. if you are going to use to use edge on a test that normally doesnt call for it in that situation. then you should cease with the illusion of a game and kill the players outright, or switch to call of cathulu.

[Neraph]

First off, let me say sorry for omitting some info here. We appreciate the info people are giving us about spirit powers & such...

1. GM has decided to make the game more lethal, a la SR3 combat rules regarding firearms. No Dodge or Reaction rolls to avoid gunfire, Indirect Spells, & other forms of high-speed ranged attacks.
2. You are right the GM has NOT thought about ways to circumvent our mage(s) from summoning a really powerful spirit & having it use its Concealment powers on us & other abilities to overcome a majority of obstacles.
3. I feel the things we have done were in reaction to prior runs we had, in which we failed utterly, due to being quickly overwhelmed by the GM's use of op-forces. 1 of our very first games had us going against a squad of Red Samurai in a VTOL. There was also a dragon in another session.
4. Some of you have brought some good points about how Conceallment doesn't work against pressure plates, laser tripwires, MAD scanners, or cameras focused on other things than people.
5. The Concealment power is rather vague on if it's Physical or Mana based & agaisnt which sense it applies to. So far, from what we can tell, Concealment affects visual & hearing. We haven't tried taste, touch, or smell.
6. I think a majority of the things we have NOT encountered (on the technical side of things) is due to fact we lack a Hacker & Rigger. So B&E stuff that require technical skills have been out of our domain.

I saw a majority of people were in agreement that Spirit powers are awesomely overwhelming & powerful. Magic (when strong enough) means you can do anything.

When you remove the ability to survive firearms then you should expect the group to turn to the next most powerful thing. The GM got exactly what he set himself up for, and that is a group that will never be shot.

[ikarinokami]

Is it equally tacky for the spirit to use its own Edge to help with fulfilling the summoner's wishes?

in our game, a spirits edge comes from the summoners own dice pool. So it's very rarely used. edge in our game is usally used to save our skins. like resisting a 22P hit from a level 12 spirit, with only a 14 dice pool. Again i find it amusing, that everyone thinks we are waltzing through these missions.

I have been personally carried out on quite a few of them.
one of the characters had a blanked rule of no barren missions.

we are just happy when we survive these missions.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

i guess we will have to agree to disagree on this. why you would bone a player summoning a level 12 spirit the shadowrun equivilent of a hail mary pass, when they just got attacked by level 12 spirit, a level 6 spirit. more are l on the way, and not to mention a group of high level soldiers (6) on way each one more than enough to take out the team. if you are going to use to use edge on a test that normally doesnt call for it in that situation. then you should cease with the illusion of a game and kill the players outright, or switch to call of cathulu.

Hey, at our table, the NPC's suffer under the same rules as the PC's. You would never have faced that Force 12 Spirit at our table to start with. A Hail Mary Pass is a Force 7 Spirit, Maybe. Force 12 is something way different, in my opinion. That is the point where you run (Well anything above Force 6 really, unless you knew that going in). You do not stay around and play "Summoning" games. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Jazz]

Please bare with me, as I am still learning the SR4 system (I am a SR2 vet).

You make me think of someone but who... Oh snap, that's just me (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (SR1 vet)

Now, let's say this guy gets really daring and manages to convince his mage friend with Magic Attribute of 6, to summon a Force 12 Spirit. Let's say the mage friend manages to summon a force 12 spirit (and survive). Now this force 12 spirit could conceal this guy on our example and cause anyone trying to perceive him to suffer a -12 penalty on perception tests, both physically and astrally.

Until the spirit vanish, yes.

Now, if this I described so far is correct, my question is: Where would'd this fellow be able to sneak into? Worse, with a Force 12 spirit with concealment power, I could potentially turn any crappy commuter plane into a Stealth bomber for hell.

I don't know but not that far from the non concealed mage.

If the character have no dicepool to divide while infiltrating, and if you consider conceal to be a P+M power (it's a P power, that don't work on unliving things), yeah he can be unspot by guards, spirits and dogs. Climbing a wall and managing to bypass security systems while infiltrating is another problem.

There's a lot of cameras in Archologies.

(could say BS, still learning aswell)

[ikarinokami]

When you remove the ability to survive firearms then you should expect the group to turn to the next most powerful thing. The GM got exactly what he set himself up for, and that is a group that will never be shot.

We still get shot alot, but it is true, we try our very hardest not be shot, because more likely than not, at least one of us would not survive.

I think we are being rational shadowrunners. if you live in a world that is so lethal, that some punk kid can take out a prime runner, you use every trick at your disposal to hide and evade fights. For the record i don't think we have been cheesy or cheap. even with concealment we have detected a few times.

honestly i am suprised by this conversation. it was an absolute miracle we didnt have a TPK on the last mission. there is no way we make it out alive without concealment.

[Critias]

i guess we will have to agree to disagree on this. why you would bone a player summoning a level 12 spirit the shadowrun equivilent of a hail mary pass. when they just got attacked by level 12 spirit, a level 6 spirit. more are l on the way, and not to mention a group of high level soldiers (6) on way each one more than enough to take out the team.

in our game, a spirits edge comes from the summoners own dice pool.

All we can do is share our opinions and give our advice based upon the information your group is giving us. Your GM came on here talking about how he feels the Concealment power isn't balanced. Then, a smidgen of data at a time, we've learned other parts of the story.

One part was that a Force 12 Spirit was summoned basically consequence-free, which was a concern to your GM. Then, slowly, we were told that it happened due to strange luck. When we commented that "luck" is something with a mechanic built right in to be manipulated (IE, Edge), it was only after we made those sort of suggestions that...slowly...more information trickled to us about more house rules in play. These are big things, these house rules you guys keep conveniently not mentioning, when first asking for input or advice.

Ranged combat being absurdly dangerous? Yeah, that's kind of a big deal and is naturally going to shift the nature of a campaign.

The group being absolutely worthless when it comes to electronics/technology (and as such that aspect of security being largely ignored, in-game)? Hey, that's also kind of important, and explains why there's such a magical focus going on.

Spirits only getting Edge from their spellcaster? Hey, guess what, that's nice to now when someone's bitching about spirits, and spirit summoning being too easy, and how spirits work.

Noticing the pattern here? We get a statement like "I think X is a problem," and then when we make suggestions about how to get around X, or reasons X normally isn't broken, or ways to mitigate X, or ways we got by X in our games, or ways for corporate security to be able to handle X, we get a response like "Well that won't work in our game because sky yellow moon cheese platypus rhubarb," and then we realize that you guys have yet another table rule in play that changes the whole nature of X.

Again i find it amusing, that everyone thinks we are waltzing through these missions.

I have been personally carried out on quite a few of them.
one of the characters had a blanked rule of no barren missions.

we are just happy when we survive these missions.

You can be "amused" at what we think all you want to, but please keep in mind that the only opinions we can form are opinions based on the stuff you and your buddies tell us. So maybe to you you guys are barely surviving, but to us? All we know is:

I play at Camberiu's game & can tell you first hand the insane power that Concealment has & how we've abused it with our mage.

And:

Our mage summons a powerful spirit to use it concealment power on us, then as we're sneaking in/around, the mage then uses trid phantasm to make whatever door/window we're about to open look like it's shut. Shape Metal the door open, we go through, shape it close, drop the phantasm. That's how we've been bypassing metal doors & cameras.

So maybe instead of being amused (and then defensive) at the suggestions people are making, you guys could be a little more communicative to begin with.

If your GM comes in here asking for help because Concealment is so powerful his players aren't being challenged, and then another player clarifies and points out that yeah, you guys are "abusing" the "insane power," and just totally "bypassing" doors and cameras all the time...well, guess what? That's the mental image we're going to get of your game, okay?

[ikarinokami]

All we can do is share our opinions and give our advice based upon the information your group is giving us. Your GM came on here talking about how he feels the Concealment power isn't balanced. Then, a smidgen of data at a time, we've learned other parts of the story.

One part was that a Force 12 Spirit was summoned basically consequence-free, which was a concern to your GM. Then, slowly, we were told that it happened due to strange luck. When we commented that "luck" is something with a mechanic built right in to be manipulated (IE, Edge), it was only after we made those sort of suggestions that...slowly...more information trickled to us about more house rules in play. These are big things, these house rules you guys keep conveniently not mentioning, when first asking for input or advice.

Ranged combat being absurdly dangerous? Yeah, that's kind of a big deal and is naturally going to shift the nature of a campaign.

The group being absolutely worthless when it comes to electronics/technology (and as such that aspect of security being largely ignored, in-game)? Hey, that's also kind of important, and explains why there's such a magical focus going on.

Spirits only getting Edge from their spellcaster? Hey, guess what, that's nice to now when someone's bitching about spirits, and spirit summoning being too easy, and how spirits work.

Noticing the pattern here? We get a statement like "I think X is a problem," and then when we make suggestions about how to get around X, or reasons X normally isn't broken, or ways to mitigate X, or ways we got by X in our games, or ways for corporate security to be able to handle X, we get a response like "Well that won't work in our game because sky yellow moon cheese platypus rhubarb," and then we realize that you guys have yet another table rule in play that changes the whole nature of X.


You can be "amused" at what we think all you want to, but please keep in mind that the only opinions we can form are opinions based on the stuff you and your buddies tell us. So maybe to you you guys are barely surviving, but to us? All we know is:

And:

So maybe instead of being amused (and then defensive) at the suggestions people are making, you guys could be a little more communicative to begin with.

If your GM comes in here asking for help because Concealment is so powerful his players aren't being challenged, and then another player clarifies and points out that yeah, you guys are "abusing" the "insane power," and just totally "bypassing" doors and cameras all the time...well, guess what? That's the mental image we're going to get of your game, okay?

I don't think getting past Camera is that powerful. when failing to get past on detected means your death, or when they are sufficient counter measures to stop it.

I think "over powered" really depends on context, and given the rules we have regarding range combat, and the fact, that things like mono filament wire, attacking from concealment breaks the concealment, wards, doesnt work lifting objects or opening doors, to makes the power just about right.

do we use it alot, yep, is it fool proof, no. has it ever been fool proof no. if the GM wants to be ban, I'm fine with it, but I can't imagine our characters surviving more than a couple of missions or much less completeing them.

[Saint Hallow]

First off... as was stated in the 1st post, our GM (Camberiu) is an SR2 vet & not an SR4 person & he wanted people's opinions & thoughts about Concealment.

I think many folks here shared the consensus that Critters/Spirits & their powers do share some possible game unbalancing ramifications. Concealment being the primary power of concern.

As for how our game plays, the houserules, the checkered past/history of our runs & how our current modus operandi came about by abusing this power really isn't all that relevant anymore. Though from what people have seen here blame (if you can even call it that) is shared by both ends of the table & sides of the screen.

[Aerospider]

in our game, a spirits edge comes from the summoners own dice pool. So it's very rarely used. edge in our game is usally used to save our skins. like resisting a 22P hit from a level 12 spirit, with only a 14 dice pool. Again i find it amusing, that everyone thinks we are waltzing through these missions.

I have been personally carried out on quite a few of them.
one of the characters had a blanked rule of no barren missions.

we are just happy when we survive these missions.

Well if spirits don't have their own Edge in your game then of course it will seem odd for it to use it when resisting the summoning!

It's tremendously bad form to act aloof and condescending to people trying to help you balance your game when you've totally redefined core aspects of RAW and wonder why it's all out of whack.

[Aerospider]

+10 Karma for Critias

[ikarinokami]

Well if spirits don't have their own Edge in your game then of course it will seem odd for it to use it when resisting the summoning!

It's tremendously bad form to act aloof and condescending to people trying to help you balance your game when you've totally redefined core aspects of RAW and wonder why it's all out of whack.

well i wasnt being condescing. I was however disagreeing with the your fundemental point that the game is out of whack. it is not. nor do i think concealment is being abused or broken, within the context of the game it is played it is fine. The game as it stands is deadly and extremely fun, we all feel a sense a relief when we finally complete a mission which is awesome.

I did appreciate the persons, who pointed out the varies magical and technological counter measures that can be used against concealment.

I do agree though that our wonderful GM did not give proper context to the question. things like we had for the most part had only 2 or 3 players at time. that the three main players were a street sam, a sport rifle adapt and a mage. so in general our game are magic heavy, as previously we had no means of electronic counter measures, so our GM righly so did not really look into the varied varity of sensors that are possible.

I thinkwhat our GM was looking for was the different means to defeat concealment besides brute means which he had on the last run and were perfectly reasonable within the context of run.


So Thanks to everyone who gave excellent mundane choices. and apolgies to those who thought i was being condesending.

[Mardrax]

I think many folks here shared the consensus that Critters/Spirits & their powers do share some possible game unbalancing ramifications. Concealment being the primary power of concern.

I'd vote for Engulf as the primary power to worry about. As spirit able to tag you with it, then zip off to the astral to sustain it from over yonder until you drop is quite worrisome. Or possibly Fear. That power that has you roll Will vs 2Force at LoS ranges. Or how about Movement? Ever seen a troll run 1000kph? How's about a motorcycle clocking in a safe speed of Mach 1.35? Or Mach 2.3 when used by a Force 12 spirit? And that's not even a customised motorcycle yet. Concealment really isn't all that bad.

[Mikado]

No dodge? Well that's freakin' news. First, there IS such a skill as Dodge, to say nothing of the Full Defense action - if you're getting shot at, it's wiser to cartwheel your ass behind the nearest obstacle, be it a corner, a copy machine, a large crate or a car, than stay in the open and return fire.

I do not think that he was referring to the dodge skill. I read that as there is a defense or counter to any option the players or NPC’s use. Whether it is spirits, guns or hacking, you can counter everything. But I could be wrong....

[Irion]

Spirts above force 6 tend to be out of sanity. That is quite obvious. There are some things holding up, but in general...
And honestly, if they use edge for the summoner or not is just icing on the cake, not the real deal...

[Critias]

I do not think that he was referring to the dodge skill. I read that as there is a defense or counter to any option the players or NPC’s use. Whether it is spirits, guns or hacking, you can counter everything. But I could be wrong....

In this instance, you are. They're talking about some house rules in use at their local game, that takes away the defense rolls that are normally in place, turning every ranged attack into a resisted roll. There is no defense (reaction, or reaction + skill) roll against ranged attacks in their game.

[Seriously Mike]

no the drain value is not constant. its the number of hits it rolls on an opposed test x2. its dice pool is its force. so again, i got very lucky. the gm could have roll 12 in which case it is 24p. again it would not have mattered because if i hadnt summoned it, we were going to die.

Duh, my bad. But a lesson for the future: in a situation where you're going to die, just summon the biggest, baddest combat spirit you can, sic him on the enemies and haul ass in the opposite direction, taking advantage of the confusion.

[Neraph]

All we can do is share our opinions and give our advice based upon the information your group is giving us. Your GM came on here talking about how he feels the Concealment power isn't balanced. Then, a smidgen of data at a time, we've learned other parts of the story.

One part was that a Force 12 Spirit was summoned basically consequence-free, which was a concern to your GM. Then, slowly, we were told that it happened due to strange luck. When we commented that "luck" is something with a mechanic built right in to be manipulated (IE, Edge), it was only after we made those sort of suggestions that...slowly...more information trickled to us about more house rules in play. These are big things, these house rules you guys keep conveniently not mentioning, when first asking for input or advice.

Ranged combat being absurdly dangerous? Yeah, that's kind of a big deal and is naturally going to shift the nature of a campaign.

The group being absolutely worthless when it comes to electronics/technology (and as such that aspect of security being largely ignored, in-game)? Hey, that's also kind of important, and explains why there's such a magical focus going on.

Spirits only getting Edge from their spellcaster? Hey, guess what, that's nice to now when someone's bitching about spirits, and spirit summoning being too easy, and how spirits work.

Noticing the pattern here? We get a statement like "I think X is a problem," and then when we make suggestions about how to get around X, or reasons X normally isn't broken, or ways to mitigate X, or ways we got by X in our games, or ways for corporate security to be able to handle X, we get a response like "Well that won't work in our game because sky yellow moon cheese platypus rhubarb," and then we realize that you guys have yet another table rule in play that changes the whole nature of X.


You can be "amused" at what we think all you want to, but please keep in mind that the only opinions we can form are opinions based on the stuff you and your buddies tell us. So maybe to you you guys are barely surviving, but to us? All we know is:

And:

So maybe instead of being amused (and then defensive) at the suggestions people are making, you guys could be a little more communicative to begin with.

If your GM comes in here asking for help because Concealment is so powerful his players aren't being challenged, and then another player clarifies and points out that yeah, you guys are "abusing" the "insane power," and just totally "bypassing" doors and cameras all the time...well, guess what? That's the mental image we're going to get of your game, okay?

With the weight of House Rules they are working under we really can't help them much. The reason RAW is RAW in the first place is because it works (most of the time, within reason). When you start altering what the professional game designers have made you shouldn't be surprised when the game starts really frakking up. It's like popping the hood of the car and removing things that you don't think are important... and then the AC doesn't work, or the lights don't work, or the brakes don't work.

EDIT:

Or how about Movement? Ever seen a troll run 1000kph? How's about a motorcycle clocking in a safe speed of Mach 1.35? Or Mach 2.3 when used by a Force 12 spirit? And that's not even a customised motorcycle yet.

My land speed record with a 400 BP character is Mach 4.93.

[Dr.Rockso]

With the weight of House Rules they are working under we really can't help them much. The reason RAW is RAW in the first place is because it works (most of the time, within reason). When you start altering what the professional game designers have made you shouldn't be surprised when the game starts really frakking up. It's like popping the hood of the car and removing things that you don't think are important... and then the AC doesn't work, or the lights don't work, or the brakes don't work.

EDIT:
My land speed record with a 400 BP character is Mach 4.93.

Just curious...how did your character survive going that fast?

[Draco18s]

Just curious...how did your character survive going that fast?

Magic. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)