Summoning Spirits, Obedience and expectations Options

[Paul]

This is a spin off from another thread, where a player suggested it's okay to summon a high powered spirit, in this case a force ten I think, and use it to plan "the run", as they put it. Dakka Dakka seems to most vocally support this, quoting a small blurb in Street magic:

When a spirit owes services and a service is requested, however, the spirit must obey. A service can either be situational (such as “Help fight these Triad enforcers” or “Put out that fire”) or power-related (such as “Sustain Concealment on me until I ask you to stop”). If a spirit is asked to perform a specific task, it will use any and all powers in its arsenal to complete that task, but will terminate those powers once the task is complete. If the spirit is asked to use a single power, it will continue to do so for as long as it is able to or until the conjurer asks it to cease.

As his backing behind this idea.

I feel this ignores a vast swath of what summoning entails, including a lot of the flavor text in the core book that says spirits oppose being bound, and dislike it. It also ignores flavor text that states the nature of spirits is one metahumanity doesn't quite understand, and it ignores a small blurb on how GMs should play spirits as NPC's. But mostly I think it's a dick move, and the SR4 equivalent of entering a cheat code.

Even if we ignore that a spirit is an alien intelligence from extra dimensional plane, who may or may not be able to help the PC's in any significant way (Smarter than the PC's does not equate to able to plan in depth "Shadowrun", or a sound tactical or strategic plan.), and even if we ignore that a spirit, even a bound one that is immensely friendly to the PC's may have it's own goals-this just sits wrong with me.

Now I am not posting this thread to attack Dakka, but rather instead of bogging the other thread down with more of this discussion I thought I'd move it here. I greatly believe in that everyone runs their own game, and there is no one true way, only whatever is fun. But I am curious what would you do if the players tried to do this in your game? Why?

[Hound]

Wait wait, so by "plan the run" you mean like, ask the spirit what it thinks you should do to accomplish your run? If so, man I hope one of my players tries that!

I agree with you OP, spirits aren't human, they see the world in a very different and alien way. The book also specifically mentions that they are generally clueless about technology, to the point that they can't even see or interact with AR. Just go with it, but respond in a way that's appropriate to the spirit's type and the player's tradition. Norse magician asks guardian spirit how to acquire item from inside heavily guarded facility? "STORM THE FRONT CLEARLY! Cut them down, eat their eyes and take their skulls to your shrine to Odin! When the battle is complete, obviously there will be no one left to stop you from taking whatever you want from their pathetic fortress."

I realize that's a bit of an extreme case, lol. But the principle holds. There's no reason to believe that a spirit would be any good at all for planning stuff in the material plane. The GM just needs to know how to separate his knowledge from his NPCs knowledge. Also, like you said, many spirits don't appreciate being bound, especially for certain tasks. In my opinion a force 10 spirit would be quite offended if his time was wasted for something like planning a run. They have to obey, but they don't have to like it, and they only have to obey what the player actually says. For me personally, I treat spirits above force 8 as having significantly more flex room/interpretation for orders. I believe they should be very powerful, but very dangerous as well.

[Makki]

without the knowledge skill "security systems" and "corporate procedures" or equivalents, any plan is useless.

apart from that, yes spirits are aliens and don't know what little metahuman wants, unless you really explain him in detail what he has to do. With Logic 12, your explanation might be a little bit shorter

[Machiavelli]

I have proofed millions of times as a player that i don´t own one, but i always depended on the "common sense" of the GM. Like (especially) the german laws, the SR rules and fluff are meant to be interpreted. That the spirit "has to obey" and that he "does whatever needed to get the job done" doesn´t necessarily mean that the spirit is putting as much effort, planning and enthusiasm in fulfilling the job than the characters do. For me, this doesn´t imply the use of edge or other stuff. A fire-spirit who is forced to fight enemies would as well burn the complete building down instead of single-fight the enemies. He has done the job within his limits of power, but nobody said that he is doing it the way the char. thought about.

"err....stupid humans...Aall the enemies burned down, job done"

[bustedkarma]

I'm running a game now, with a group a guys new to SR altogether (They are all D20 converts, all hail the D6!)
Obviously, I'm being VERY transparent on what rolls are happening "behind the scenes". I want them to know what is going on, so on the next run, they have an idea of what they maybe rolling against.

We're not really RP heavy, but on the subject of spirits, I was hyper specific.

* The Spirit you summon is an NPC.
* The GM controls all NPCs
* You tell the spirit what you want done, and I will interpret the request.
* Your general attitude toward the spirit can and will affect it's interpretation.

"I ask, with much reverence and respect, that you destroy my enemies, and protect me from harm" gets much better results than "Burn those dudes".

Just set clear standards, and stick to them. Spirits can really help the flavor of a game, or break the hell out of it. It's the GMs job to make sure it's the former.


In regards to the F10 planning the run, I can't help but think his plan for the team would be

"Walk in, take the body, and walk out. Kill anyone that tries to stop you. I now owe you one less service".

[Dakka Dakka]

without the knowledge skill "security systems" and "corporate procedures" or equivalents, any plan is useless.

Do you enforce this on PCs as well?

apart from that, yes spirits are aliens and don't know what little metahuman wants, unless you really explain him in detail what he has to do. With Logic 12, your explanation might be a little bit shorter

Exactly. The more precise the orders are, the more likely the summoner will get what he wants. He will always get what he ordered unless the spirit is unable to do it. If the order is rather broad like "plan our run, here are some details..." there is a lot of possibility for misunderstanding.

In the previous thread I only objected to the spirit advising stuff that was detrimental to the summoner and did not help achieve the goal even in the spirit's mind.

[Yerameyahu]

I'd enforce it on PCs that aren't native to this reality, time, and society, Dakka Dakka. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Paul]

In the previous thread I only objected to the spirit advising stuff that was detrimental to the summoner and did not help achieve the goal even in the spirit's mind.

And please forgive me for singling you out by name, and thanks for being a good sport. I do appreciate it. I admit, part of why I revisited this is that I am flabbergasted by your point of view. Please do not mistake that for me saying you're wrong or bad-because everyone has their own style at their own tables. But I have to admit this invoked some curiosity on my part. Thanks for playing along!

[Makki]

Do you enforce this on PCs as well?

(un)fortunately, every PC on our table has knowledge relevant for shadow running

[Machiavelli]

Not in your new table^^

[UmaroVI]

I think spirits should do their best to help - but within the limitations of being a spirit. If you ask a Guidance spirit for advice, IMO, you should get useful advice if it's something the spirit knows about. If you ask a Guardian spirit for its advice on, say, the tactics you should use for an assault mission, or ask a Fire spirit to help you plan some arson, or something like that, it should give you good advice (based on its mental stats). If you ask a spirit to advise you about something it just doesn't know anything about, like asking a Water spirit to give you advice about hacking, it won't be able to help. If you ask a spirit to give you really broad advice, like "how should we do this mission," it will give you advice within the limitations of what it knows - it probably has no idea how to effectively sneak in, because it does that by walking in on the astral. But it might give you good suggestions for dealing with astral security or dual-natured security critters.

[Dakka Dakka]

Or the spirit would advise to ask someone else as it has deduced that it lacks the required knowledge.

[Paul]

You seem to be confusing utmost ability to complete a task with the actual desire to help, and actual friendly or amicable relationship with the PC's. One can help someone to the utmost of their ability, and still by the rules as written leave them hanging here and there, or even have an oppositional, even defiant personality.

I am not suggesting this would be common place, or should be the catch all answer every time some one summons a spirit, but under the circumstances I'd consider it. Once is an experiment. Twice is perversion. Three times? That's habitual baby. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

It'd be a lot like the old wish spell in D&D games...be careful what you wish for.

[phlapjack77]

What if the summoner had the Spirit Affinity advantage?

[Paul]

I think this razor can cut both ways. I'd reward a player who was careful in the way he summoned and used spirit services. I think it's possible for a player to build a good rep in the spirit world.

[EuroShadow]

I think this razor can cut both ways. I'd reward a player who was careful in the way he summoned and used spirit services. I think it's possible for a player to build a good rep in the spirit world.

I agree.

I got player, who is quite respectful against spirits, usually summons spirits that he has spirit affinity to, and sometimes in case of dangerous/important task releases spirit from service (even bound one) faster despite that a service or two were still owed.

[Makki]

I'd like to add a house rule, our table sometimes uses. Whenever a spirit (or maybe a sprite) is summoned, his mentality towards the summoner is determined like this:

Roll a single die and add x per case to result

• x= -2: Spirit force is greater than summoner's magic rating.
• x= -1: Summoner regularly does 'spirit swapping' (=summoning a spirit only to let another mage banish and summon it).
• x= -1: Summoner actions resulted in several of his spirits being disrupted in the last month.
• x= -1: Summoner is summoning in an environment aspected against the magical paradigm (e.g. nature spirit in a toxic domain.)
• x= -2: Summoner has Spirit Bane neqative quality for this type
• x= +2: Summoner has Spirit Affinity positive quality fir this type
• x= -1: other reason determined by GM. (E.g. a Shaman asking the great avatar of water to wash his car. This might be appropriate for a Hermetic or Chaos mage)

Result < 0: Spirit is hostile, and only aid the character because it is bound to do so. Spirit will resist Summoning and Bindings using edge, and will actively seek to undermine the character's desires by using loopholes in the wording of his commands.
Result 0: Spirit is sullen and resentful. While the spirit doesn't hate the character personally, it does hate to be compelled. Spirit will occasionally interpret commands in a way that undermines the character's desires, but will not go to the lengths of actually expending Edge to resist anything.
Result 1: Spirit is impatient but not hostile. Spirit will fulfill the caster's commands in the quickest possible way involving the least expenditure of effort or risk to itself. (e.g. Instructed to 'Guard me', the spirit uses the spirit power Guard and then retires to the astral plane. The spirit won't stay near by to guard the summoner physically unless specifically commanded, and may consider it another service.)
Result 2-3: Spirit is professional, and impersonal. Spirit interprets instructions in a reasonable manner for it's force rating. Spirit doesn't use edge to either help or resist caster.
Result 4-5: Spirit is generally friendly, and courteous. Spirit will use appropriate tactics, but won't use edge for the character's sake.
Result 6: Spirit is friendly, views the trip to the material plane as an adventure, or for some reason feels it 'owes' the summoner. Spirit will use the best tactics available, based on it's knowledge and intelligence. Spirit will occasionally use edge on actions to aid the character.

[bustedkarma]

Good house rule.
I dig it.

[Draco18s]

I have proofed millions of times as a player that i don´t own one, but i always depended on the "common sense" of the GM. Like (especially) the german laws, the SR rules and fluff are meant to be interpreted. That the spirit "has to obey" and that he "does whatever needed to get the job done" doesn´t necessarily mean that the spirit is putting as much effort, planning and enthusiasm in fulfilling the job than the characters do. For me, this doesn´t imply the use of edge or other stuff. A fire-spirit who is forced to fight enemies would as well burn the complete building down instead of single-fight the enemies. He has done the job within his limits of power, but nobody said that he is doing it the way the char. thought about.

"err....stupid humans...Aall the enemies burned down, job done"

I have one for you:

Character summoned an earth spirit and asked it to make a tunnel from location A to location B (gas line to a basement).
Character summoned an air spirit and asked it to keep the gasses in the tunnel moving from A to B and not leak out.
Character summoned a force 1 fire spirit, told it to go to location B and quote, "have fun."

For the fire spirit and it's vague order, how would you have run that?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I have one for you:

Character summoned an earth spirit and asked it to make a tunnel from location A to location B (gas line to a basement).
Character summoned an air spirit and asked it to keep the gasses in the tunnel moving from A to B and not leak out.
Character summoned a force 1 fire spirit, told it to go to location B and quote, "have fun."

For the fire spirit and it's vague order, how would you have run that?

Heh...

Fire spirit goes to Location B.
Fun for a Fire Spirit likely involves... FIRE. So it Materializes and causes the Gases to Explode.
Fire Spirit takes damage from the resulting Fuel-Air explosion and is disrupted back to his home plane, in a most painful fashion.
Fire Spirit Tells all the other spirits that the Character is a Douche, and that they should be wary when answering his call, as they may be sacrificed next.
All other spirits are now aware that the character is a Douche, so they spend Edge to resist Summoning/Binding.
Done.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

I mean, assuming it knows all the other spirits, that they'd listen to it, etc. I assume it's like reality: I'd have trouble convincing the whole internet that some random guy sucks.

[Draco18s]

Or maybe, you know, that fire spirits are immune to fire?

[Draco18s]

Or maybe, you know, that fire spirits are immune to fire?

[Neraph]

Immune to fire =/= immune. It's only "Hardened Armor" = 2x F against Fire attacks specifically, which still gets halved from elemental effects.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Or maybe, you know, that fire spirits are immune to fire?

Which they are not...