This is a spin off from another thread, where a player suggested it's okay to summon a high powered spirit, in this case a force ten I think, and use it to plan "the run", as they put it. Dakka Dakka seems to most vocally support this, quoting a small blurb in Street magic:



As his backing behind this idea.

I feel this ignores a vast swath of what summoning entails, including a lot of the flavor text in the core book that says spirits oppose being bound, and dislike it. It also ignores flavor text that states the nature of spirits is one metahumanity doesn't quite understand, and it ignores a small blurb on how GMs should play spirits as NPC's. But mostly I think it's a dick move, and the SR4 equivalent of entering a cheat code.

Even if we ignore that a spirit is an alien intelligence from extra dimensional plane, who may or may not be able to help the PC's in any significant way (Smarter than the PC's does not equate to able to plan in depth "Shadowrun", or a sound tactical or strategic plan.), and even if we ignore that a spirit, even a bound one that is immensely friendly to the PC's may have it's own goals-this just sits wrong with me.

Now I am not posting this thread to attack Dakka, but rather instead of bogging the other thread down with more of this discussion I thought I'd move it here. I greatly believe in that everyone runs their own game, and there is no one true way, only whatever is fun. But I am curious what would you do if the players tried to do this in your game? Why?

Wait wait, so by "plan the run" you mean like, ask the spirit what it thinks you should do to accomplish your run? If so, man I hope one of my players tries that!

I agree with you OP, spirits aren't human, they see the world in a very different and alien way. The book also specifically mentions that they are generally clueless about technology, to the point that they can't even see or interact with AR. Just go with it, but respond in a way that's appropriate to the spirit's type and the player's tradition. Norse magician asks guardian spirit how to acquire item from inside heavily guarded facility? "STORM THE FRONT CLEARLY! Cut them down, eat their eyes and take their skulls to your shrine to Odin! When the battle is complete, obviously there will be no one left to stop you from taking whatever you want from their pathetic fortress."

I realize that's a bit of an extreme case, lol. But the principle holds. There's no reason to believe that a spirit would be any good at all for planning stuff in the material plane. The GM just needs to know how to separate his knowledge from his NPCs knowledge. Also, like you said, many spirits don't appreciate being bound, especially for certain tasks. In my opinion a force 10 spirit would be quite offended if his time was wasted for something like planning a run. They have to obey, but they don't have to like it, and they only have to obey what the player actually says. For me personally, I treat spirits above force 8 as having significantly more flex room/interpretation for orders. I believe they should be very powerful, but very dangerous as well.

without the knowledge skill "security systems" and "corporate procedures" or equivalents, any plan is useless.

apart from that, yes spirits are aliens and don't know what little metahuman wants, unless you really explain him in detail what he has to do. With Logic 12, your explanation might be a little bit shorter

I have proofed millions of times as a player that i don´t own one, but i always depended on the "common sense" of the GM. Like (especially) the german laws, the SR rules and fluff are meant to be interpreted. That the spirit "has to obey" and that he "does whatever needed to get the job done" doesn´t necessarily mean that the spirit is putting as much effort, planning and enthusiasm in fulfilling the job than the characters do. For me, this doesn´t imply the use of edge or other stuff. A fire-spirit who is forced to fight enemies would as well burn the complete building down instead of single-fight the enemies. He has done the job within his limits of power, but nobody said that he is doing it the way the char. thought about.

"err....stupid humans...Aall the enemies burned down, job done"

I'm running a game now, with a group a guys new to SR altogether (They are all D20 converts, all hail the D6!)
Obviously, I'm being VERY transparent on what rolls are happening "behind the scenes". I want them to know what is going on, so on the next run, they have an idea of what they maybe rolling against.

We're not really RP heavy, but on the subject of spirits, I was hyper specific.

* The Spirit you summon is an NPC.
* The GM controls all NPCs
* You tell the spirit what you want done, and I will interpret the request.
* Your general attitude toward the spirit can and will affect it's interpretation.

"I ask, with much reverence and respect, that you destroy my enemies, and protect me from harm" gets much better results than "Burn those dudes".

Just set clear standards, and stick to them. Spirits can really help the flavor of a game, or break the hell out of it. It's the GMs job to make sure it's the former.


In regards to the F10 planning the run, I can't help but think his plan for the team would be

"Walk in, take the body, and walk out. Kill anyone that tries to stop you. I now owe you one less service".

Do you enforce this on PCs as well?

Exactly. The more precise the orders are, the more likely the summoner will get what he wants. He will always get what he ordered unless the spirit is unable to do it. If the order is rather broad like "plan our run, here are some details..." there is a lot of possibility for misunderstanding.

In the previous thread I only objected to the spirit advising stuff that was detrimental to the summoner and did not help achieve the goal even in the spirit's mind.

I'd enforce it on PCs that aren't native to this reality, time, and society, Dakka Dakka.

And please forgive me for singling you out by name, and thanks for being a good sport. I do appreciate it. I admit, part of why I revisited this is that I am flabbergasted by your point of view. Please do not mistake that for me saying you're wrong or bad-because everyone has their own style at their own tables. But I have to admit this invoked some curiosity on my part. Thanks for playing along!

(un)fortunately, every PC on our table has knowledge relevant for shadow running

Not in your new table^^

I think spirits should do their best to help - but within the limitations of being a spirit. If you ask a Guidance spirit for advice, IMO, you should get useful advice if it's something the spirit knows about. If you ask a Guardian spirit for its advice on, say, the tactics you should use for an assault mission, or ask a Fire spirit to help you plan some arson, or something like that, it should give you good advice (based on its mental stats). If you ask a spirit to advise you about something it just doesn't know anything about, like asking a Water spirit to give you advice about hacking, it won't be able to help. If you ask a spirit to give you really broad advice, like "how should we do this mission," it will give you advice within the limitations of what it knows - it probably has no idea how to effectively sneak in, because it does that by walking in on the astral. But it might give you good suggestions for dealing with astral security or dual-natured security critters.

Or the spirit would advise to ask someone else as it has deduced that it lacks the required knowledge.

You seem to be confusing utmost ability to complete a task with the actual desire to help, and actual friendly or amicable relationship with the PC's. One can help someone to the utmost of their ability, and still by the rules as written leave them hanging here and there, or even have an oppositional, even defiant personality.

I am not suggesting this would be common place, or should be the catch all answer every time some one summons a spirit, but under the circumstances I'd consider it. Once is an experiment. Twice is perversion. Three times? That's habitual baby.

It'd be a lot like the old wish spell in D&D games...be careful what you wish for.

What if the summoner had the Spirit Affinity advantage?

I think this razor can cut both ways. I'd reward a player who was careful in the way he summoned and used spirit services. I think it's possible for a player to build a good rep in the spirit world.

I agree.

I got player, who is quite respectful against spirits, usually summons spirits that he has spirit affinity to, and sometimes in case of dangerous/important task releases spirit from service (even bound one) faster despite that a service or two were still owed.

I'd like to add a house rule, our table sometimes uses. Whenever a spirit (or maybe a sprite) is summoned, his mentality towards the summoner is determined like this:

Good house rule.
I dig it.

I have one for you:

Character summoned an earth spirit and asked it to make a tunnel from location A to location B (gas line to a basement).
Character summoned an air spirit and asked it to keep the gasses in the tunnel moving from A to B and not leak out.
Character summoned a force 1 fire spirit, told it to go to location B and quote, "have fun."

For the fire spirit and it's vague order, how would you have run that?

Heh...

Fire spirit goes to Location B.
Fun for a Fire Spirit likely involves... FIRE. So it Materializes and causes the Gases to Explode.
Fire Spirit takes damage from the resulting Fuel-Air explosion and is disrupted back to his home plane, in a most painful fashion.
Fire Spirit Tells all the other spirits that the Character is a Douche, and that they should be wary when answering his call, as they may be sacrificed next.
All other spirits are now aware that the character is a Douche, so they spend Edge to resist Summoning/Binding.
Done.

I mean, assuming it knows all the other spirits, that they'd listen to it, etc. I assume it's like reality: I'd have trouble convincing the whole internet that some random guy sucks.

Or maybe, you know, that fire spirits are immune to fire?

Or maybe, you know, that fire spirits are immune to fire?

Immune to fire =/= immune. It's only "Hardened Armor" = 2x F against Fire attacks specifically, which still gets halved from elemental effects.

Which they are not...

Is this so? Fire is just what spiritstuff the spirits are made of, assumedly. Or even just resembles.
Does fun for you include flesh and bone?

The fire spirit in question might really enjoy playing with balls of ephemeral spring. Or flying circles real fast until it gets dizzy. Since that's about the intelligence level an F1 spirit is at.
And it's nt as if fire spirits set things alight just by being in their presence. After all, even Energy Aura doesn't work like that. Since the gas isn't attacking the spirit, and vice versa isn't necessarily the case either, they could easily co-exist.



You're talking explosion here. Explosions (or air pressure, or lack of oxygen) can extinguish fire, and are widely used for this.

Ack. Double-post.

He Materializes and starts setting things on Fire. Thought it was obvious. The Gas may not even be something the fire spirit perceives, or cares about. After all, can you detect an odorless, colorless gas? The only reason us humans can do so (for natural gas) is because currently they add a smell to it. Fire spirits may not even know such things, or care.

And yes, the damage is from both actually, as the spirit would be in the middle of a fireball, as well as the explosive overpressure. Fire and Blast.

My point was more that 'having fun' for the spirit doesn't necessarily mean setting things on fire. Telling a spirit to have fun might have very unexpected results.

Possibly...

I will try and tell you what happened.^^

Actually I seem to remember a section in either the core book or Street Magic mentioning that all spirits seem supernaturally aware of how their summoners have treated other spirits they've summoned, at least in a general manner. As though it leaves some kind of mark on their astral aura which only spirits can see or something. I'll try and find the quote.

okay well I found this, don't think it's what I was looking for, but it mentions the concept:

"One common anecdotal reference that underscores this conundrum
are spirits conjured by magicians who have previously
mistreated or disrespected other spirits. In numerous reported
cases, new spirits summoned by these magicians were aware of
these previous exchanges and responded accordingly—though
admittedly there are no documented cases of spirits being able
to cite specifics such as names, places, or words used."

pg 90, street magic.

We already had a discussion about that, which also ended withuot a result. Basically because different tradtions tend to treat their spirits differently. My black mage e.g. sees low-level spirits as minions, and i cannot imagine that he treats them as good as a hougan that might think he is summoning his grandmother, a theurgist that thinks he summons an angel or a shaman that calls of his god....and black mages still have access to summoning so it cannot be that bad. If you send your fire spirits into the pool for fun and see them vanishing....regularily....THEN this could get a problem. But this is only a logical result of your behaviour the GM should handle. Nothing you have to clarify in rules etc.

Sounds good, Hound. Karmic marks.

And having them walk into a pool isn't the same as having them enjoy themselves gleefully in a chamber filled with flammable gas.

Maybe it's a dick move (because the resulting explosion sends the spirit back to its home plane) maybe it isn't (maybe the spirit is shunted back to its home plane, but also "leveled up" as the result of having set something on fire (i.e. the whole building)).

Maybe the spirit isn't destroyed, but instead absorbs the power of the fiery explosion and gets a temporary force boost.*

*This happened in one of the games I was in, I don't recall the circumstances.

Well... yeah. Especially when it's wrapped in a transparent negligee. Flames might be just so for a Fire Spirit.

Sorry for resurrecting the thread, but got directed here from the Spirit Bane Antics thread.

Actually I'm a strong believer in that spirits should be run as gm NPC's when called. And within limits wish wording should be employed :). This gives a LOT of room for great acting and humor on the part of the GM... as well as the occasional screw you, when people get way above themselves (summoning spirits above their magic rating... like force 8 or 9's...).




This next bit I believe goes double for orders given in the heat of battle in the midst of a fight and given in a single pass.


Recently I've put "Cryptonomicon" on my mp3 player for long commutes... I forgot how much I enjoyed that book. But when Shaftoe's talking about how a NCO approaches an officers orders I thought it was very apt. Officer take out that pillbox... at that point... the NCO goes out and uses a satchel charge, storms it, uses flamethrower... etc. Especially the bit where he's talking about reducing officers to quivering blobs.

Quote: " the extreme formality with which he addresses these officers carries an important subtext: your problem, sir, is deciding what you want me to do, and my problem, sir, is doing it." .... "The implied responsibility placed upon the officer's shoulders by the subordinate's unhesitating willingness to follow orders is a withering burden to any officer with half a brain, and Shaftoe has more than once seen seasoned noncoms reduce green lieutenants to quivering blobs simply by standing before them and agreeing, cheerfully, to carry out their orders."

Great book. Shame my copy is in dead tree format and I have little time to read those.

Funny thing about that... the most evil things I've done were those things I was specifically ordered to do. That Naval Officer & Navy Chief learned a valuable lesson... don't tell a blue shirt (lower rank enlisted) to do exactly what you say. You won't get the results you want, especially if you have pissed off said blue shirt.

By the way after rereading the Magic section in SR4A it pretty much explicitly states my point of view repeatedly. Maybe it's crappy, but Shadowrun magic is inspired by people's experiences in D&D over the decades. Right or wrong. I'm not advocating just pissing with players for no reason, but I do think Spirits should be internally consistent parts of the game-the more powerful the spirit, and the more dangerous assignments you give it the harder it should be to control them, and maintain their cooperation.

And how is that related to D&D? Summon Monster IX or Summon Nature's Ally IX is not inherently more dangerous than Summon Monster I/Summon Nature's Ally I. As long as you don't want a long term relationship Gate isn't dangerous either. It costs XP though.

Because traditionally in D&D the approach they've taken towards dealing with spirits-not summon existing creatures- is often summarized as Caveat Emptor. I'm not sure where you're going with your comments Dakka, so forgive me if I'm missing something here.

What do you mean with spirits in a D&D context? Spirits in SR behave pretty much like summoned existing creatures, though it has never been completely confirmed. However the only other option for spirits in SR is to be products of the mind of the summoner. In this case they should be even less likely to start screwing over the summoner just because they are above a certain force.

This may be an all too literal view but I pretty much transpose Shadowrun Elementals directly with D&D style elementals. Shamanic spirits get a lot trickier. But I tend to view spirits over all in terms of how I've always seen various otherworldly entities portrayed in D&D games. (Not sure if that's how the authors intended their game to be played, I just know during the last twenty plus years I've always seen them portrayed that way.)

As I consider this I guess I'm confusing a few sets of things. Give me a little time and I'll try and sort it all out in some sort of sensible manner.

Gah, I am not ignoring this. I've tried four different posts now and I am still not making sense.