Summoning Spirits, Obedience and expectations Options

[Mardrax]

Fun for a Fire Spirit likely involves... FIRE. So it Materializes and causes the Gases to Explode.

Is this so? Fire is just what spiritstuff the spirits are made of, assumedly. Or even just resembles.
Does fun for you include flesh and bone?

The fire spirit in question might really enjoy playing with balls of ephemeral spring. Or flying circles real fast until it gets dizzy. Since that's about the intelligence level an F1 spirit is at.
And it's nt as if fire spirits set things alight just by being in their presence. After all, even Energy Aura doesn't work like that. Since the gas isn't attacking the spirit, and vice versa isn't necessarily the case either, they could easily co-exist.

Or maybe, you know, that fire spirits are immune to fire?

You're talking explosion here. Explosions (or air pressure, or lack of oxygen) can extinguish fire, and are widely used for this.

[Mardrax]

Ack. Double-post.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Is this so? Fire is just what spiritstuff the spirits are made of, assumedly. Or even just resembles.
Does fun for you include flesh and bone?

The fire spirit in question might really enjoy playing with balls of ephemeral spring. Or flying circles real fast until it gets dizzy. Since that's about the intelligence level an F1 spirit is at.
And it's nt as if fire spirits set things alight just by being in their presence. After all, even Energy Aura doesn't work like that. Since the gas isn't attacking the spirit, and vice versa isn't necessarily the case either, they could easily co-exist.

He Materializes and starts setting things on Fire. Thought it was obvious. The Gas may not even be something the fire spirit perceives, or cares about. After all, can you detect an odorless, colorless gas? The only reason us humans can do so (for natural gas) is because currently they add a smell to it. Fire spirits may not even know such things, or care. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

And yes, the damage is from both actually, as the spirit would be in the middle of a fireball, as well as the explosive overpressure. Fire and Blast.

[Mardrax]

My point was more that 'having fun' for the spirit doesn't necessarily mean setting things on fire. Telling a spirit to have fun might have very unexpected results.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

My point was more that 'having fun' for the spirit doesn't necessarily mean setting things on fire. Telling a spirit to have fun might have very unexpected results.

Possibly...

[Machiavelli]

I will try and tell you what happened.^^

[Hound]

I mean, assuming it knows all the other spirits, that they'd listen to it, etc. I assume it's like reality: I'd have trouble convincing the whole internet that some random guy sucks.

Actually I seem to remember a section in either the core book or Street Magic mentioning that all spirits seem supernaturally aware of how their summoners have treated other spirits they've summoned, at least in a general manner. As though it leaves some kind of mark on their astral aura which only spirits can see or something. I'll try and find the quote.

okay well I found this, don't think it's what I was looking for, but it mentions the concept:

"One common anecdotal reference that underscores this conundrum
are spirits conjured by magicians who have previously
mistreated or disrespected other spirits. In numerous reported
cases, new spirits summoned by these magicians were aware of
these previous exchanges and responded accordingly—though
admittedly there are no documented cases of spirits being able
to cite specifics such as names, places, or words used."

pg 90, street magic.

[Machiavelli]

We already had a discussion about that, which also ended withuot a result. Basically because different tradtions tend to treat their spirits differently. My black mage e.g. sees low-level spirits as minions, and i cannot imagine that he treats them as good as a hougan that might think he is summoning his grandmother, a theurgist that thinks he summons an angel or a shaman that calls of his god....and black mages still have access to summoning so it cannot be that bad. If you send your fire spirits into the pool for fun and see them vanishing....regularily....THEN this could get a problem. But this is only a logical result of your behaviour the GM should handle. Nothing you have to clarify in rules etc.

[Yerameyahu]

Sounds good, Hound. Karmic marks.

[Draco18s]

If you send your fire spirits into the pool for fun and see them vanishing....regularily....THEN this could get a problem.

And having them walk into a pool isn't the same as having them enjoy themselves gleefully in a chamber filled with flammable gas.

Maybe it's a dick move (because the resulting explosion sends the spirit back to its home plane) maybe it isn't (maybe the spirit is shunted back to its home plane, but also "leveled up" as the result of having set something on fire (i.e. the whole building)).

Maybe the spirit isn't destroyed, but instead absorbs the power of the fiery explosion and gets a temporary force boost.*

*This happened in one of the games I was in, I don't recall the circumstances.

[pbangarth]

Is this so? Fire is just what spiritstuff the spirits are made of, assumedly. Or even just resembles.
Does fun for you include flesh and bone?

Well... yeah. Especially when it's wrapped in a transparent negligee. Flames might be just so for a Fire Spirit.

Sorry for resurrecting the thread, but got directed here from the Spirit Bane Antics thread.

[Falconer]

Actually I'm a strong believer in that spirits should be run as gm NPC's when called. And within limits wish wording should be employed :). This gives a LOT of room for great acting and humor on the part of the GM... as well as the occasional screw you, when people get way above themselves (summoning spirits above their magic rating... like force 8 or 9's...).




This next bit I believe goes double for orders given in the heat of battle in the midst of a fight and given in a single pass.


Recently I've put "Cryptonomicon" on my mp3 player for long commutes... I forgot how much I enjoyed that book. But when Shaftoe's talking about how a NCO approaches an officers orders I thought it was very apt. Officer take out that pillbox... at that point... the NCO goes out and uses a satchel charge, storms it, uses flamethrower... etc. Especially the bit where he's talking about reducing officers to quivering blobs.

Quote: " the extreme formality with which he addresses these officers carries an important subtext: your problem, sir, is deciding what you want me to do, and my problem, sir, is doing it." .... "The implied responsibility placed upon the officer's shoulders by the subordinate's unhesitating willingness to follow orders is a withering burden to any officer with half a brain, and Shaftoe has more than once seen seasoned noncoms reduce green lieutenants to quivering blobs simply by standing before them and agreeing, cheerfully, to carry out their orders."

[Draco18s]

Recently I've put "Cryptonomicon" on my mp3 player for long commutes... I forgot how much I enjoyed that book.

Great book. Shame my copy is in dead tree format and I have little time to read those.

[darthmord]

Actually I'm a strong believer in that spirits should be run as gm NPC's when called. And within limits wish wording should be employed (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) . This gives a LOT of room for great acting and humor on the part of the GM... as well as the occasional screw you, when people get way above themselves (summoning spirits above their magic rating... like force 8 or 9's...).




This next bit I believe goes double for orders given in the heat of battle in the midst of a fight and given in a single pass.


Recently I've put "Cryptonomicon" on my mp3 player for long commutes... I forgot how much I enjoyed that book. But when Shaftoe's talking about how a NCO approaches an officers orders I thought it was very apt. Officer take out that pillbox... at that point... the NCO goes out and uses a satchel charge, storms it, uses flamethrower... etc. Especially the bit where he's talking about reducing officers to quivering blobs.

Quote: " the extreme formality with which he addresses these officers carries an important subtext: your problem, sir, is deciding what you want me to do, and my problem, sir, is doing it." .... "The implied responsibility placed upon the officer's shoulders by the subordinate's unhesitating willingness to follow orders is a withering burden to any officer with half a brain, and Shaftoe has more than once seen seasoned noncoms reduce green lieutenants to quivering blobs simply by standing before them and agreeing, cheerfully, to carry out their orders."

Funny thing about that... the most evil things I've done were those things I was specifically ordered to do. That Naval Officer & Navy Chief learned a valuable lesson... don't tell a blue shirt (lower rank enlisted) to do exactly what you say. You won't get the results you want, especially if you have pissed off said blue shirt.

[Paul]

By the way after rereading the Magic section in SR4A it pretty much explicitly states my point of view repeatedly. Maybe it's crappy, but Shadowrun magic is inspired by people's experiences in D&D over the decades. Right or wrong. I'm not advocating just pissing with players for no reason, but I do think Spirits should be internally consistent parts of the game-the more powerful the spirit, and the more dangerous assignments you give it the harder it should be to control them, and maintain their cooperation.

[Dakka Dakka]

And how is that related to D&D? Summon Monster IX or Summon Nature's Ally IX is not inherently more dangerous than Summon Monster I/Summon Nature's Ally I. As long as you don't want a long term relationship Gate isn't dangerous either. It costs XP though.

[Paul]

Because traditionally in D&D the approach they've taken towards dealing with spirits-not summon existing creatures- is often summarized as Caveat Emptor. I'm not sure where you're going with your comments Dakka, so forgive me if I'm missing something here.

[Dakka Dakka]

Because traditionally in D&D the approach they've taken towards dealing with spirits-not summon existing creatures- is often summarized as Caveat Emptor. I'm not sure where you're going with your comments Dakka, so forgive me if I'm missing something here.

What do you mean with spirits in a D&D context? Spirits in SR behave pretty much like summoned existing creatures, though it has never been completely confirmed. However the only other option for spirits in SR is to be products of the mind of the summoner. In this case they should be even less likely to start screwing over the summoner just because they are above a certain force.

[Paul]

This may be an all too literal view but I pretty much transpose Shadowrun Elementals directly with D&D style elementals. Shamanic spirits get a lot trickier. But I tend to view spirits over all in terms of how I've always seen various otherworldly entities portrayed in D&D games. (Not sure if that's how the authors intended their game to be played, I just know during the last twenty plus years I've always seen them portrayed that way.)

[Paul]

As I consider this I guess I'm confusing a few sets of things. Give me a little time and I'll try and sort it all out in some sort of sensible manner.

[Paul]

Gah, I am not ignoring this. I've tried four different posts now and I am still not making sense.