The seventh session.., A lot of work for nothing. Options

[Bodak]

You know it really is not the armor that is the problem, it is the clearly illegal weapon system, and the fact that you won't respond in kind.

It has seemed from the start that the armour value was consistently proving troublesome (3rd session, 4th session, 5th session).

If by "clearly illegal weapon system" you mean Zod, then yes, that definitely seems to be a much bigger problem!

(Just to clarify things, it was Faceman who paid for and brought in the 20-armour Facevan in the first place. Later on, Zod agreed to lend the team his car for the Verge lowlife shootings and Tamanous agents executions. Zod thought his car would stay on after his character retired, which has just happened in the 7th session (or was the new hacker "character" just a convenient disposable one-off?) and it is this car which has so much notoriety. Or are people getting confused between the two vehicles?)

[Faelan]

Fair enough - I was having to adlib that bit, as the adventure doesn't say anything about her own house (only her relatives).

Just pointing out that if something is not specifically stated in a printed adventure does not mean you should just ignore a potentially glaring error.

No, I do mean Zod. The character is still very powerful but since he has nothing to do when there isn't a fight the player was getting bored.

Which means that Zod gets to have his cake and eat it too. Unfair to the other players, and reinforces all the negative issues you are having. He is being rewarded for making a one trick pony.

The adventure states that the Johnson can tell them where Goldman lives. As for the Death Mobile, because it's now just a regular Ares truck (which is described in the book as "popular for transport of secure cargo") there's probably lots of them around. And there's no mounted weapon system, just gun ports which surely aren't that obvious if there aren't guns being put through them?

Well that makes sense now, except gun ports are gun ports and are fairly obvious regardless of whether or not a gun is sticking out, unless they are concealed.

Fair point - not something I was aware of. I didn't think Joe or Jane Public were generally that paranoid.

Entirely up to the GM, but when the setting is described as a dystopic future I guess my experiences in 3rd world countries color my vision. It ain't paranoia it is just having a healthy dose of self preservation. The fluff does support this.

He aced his Con roll with 5+ net hits, and so was believed.

He may have aced it, but I have a question about whether or not you made use of the Social Modifiers table.

That's true, and I had doubts about this. It was just moot in the end because the real Goldman was never confronted with the blackmail material.

Once again I have to ask if the Social Modifiers table was used, and well using it on him might have steeled him against going with the Face. Essentially the player in this instance does not choose when to roll you do.

There's no nasty guns mounted on it - as I said, it just has gun ports the team can use. He didn't ask for ID because of the incredibly successful Con. And as for AR, well, despite the corebook saying that "people are online all the time", hardly anyone in any of the books actually has the Commlink + Sim Module + DNI necessary for AR, not even the opposing runners (there are quite a few people with AR gloves and no DNI or visual link, so I guess they have a kind of active feely thing going on), so I figured that AR isn't actually as popular as applied.

Seeing in AR requires an Image Link, which just about everyone has in one form or another.

[Faelan]

The book states that it's "Dae" who goes to blackmail Goldman in the warehouse, with no mention of anyone going with her - that seemed a bit odd to me, but it could make sense in some situations (Dae is their social hub, Goldman is a noncombatant, Dae's crimes are minor compared to other Komun'go so Lone Star have relatively little to pin on her, etc.) The warehouse was in the Verge which is described as having no police patrols. And in any case, these points don't matter because the chance of their being seen or heard by anyone powerful enough to not be bullet fodder for Zod is pretty much nil.

Did you think it was kind of a walk over situation if you went by the book? Based on everything you have told us about your party I would have recommended at least a shadowing bodyguard or two. As far as bullet fodder for Zod, well Zod is bullet fodder for anyone he is unaware of. She was there first, whihc means she could easily have had someone providing overwatch.

When the runner said "is there something on the rooftop?" the idea that it could be one of the runners wasn't high on her list - it could have been Yakuza or Lone Star, true, which is why she wouldn't go up there. But so far she has no reason to distrust the runners, as they've more or less done the missions successfully and been fairly respectful to her. Again, her sheet is provided and makes no mention of encryption software or booby traps on her items. And hey, she's a random stripper with a tenuous link to the Komun'Go who's being used as a Johnson because she's distant enough to be deniable, so that sort of makes sense that she wouldn't be super paranoid. (And she has Logic 3 and is defaulting on Computer. Run a complex decrypter? She probably can't find the power switch half the time.)

Why not? The passing of the credstick seemed weird. Then one of the players makes the roof comment, and looks without hesitation. Something she would not do, which in my mind tells me either the runner is a retard or he was trying to set me up. Yes these people are paranoid. If you are in the Shadows you are paranoid or ghoul feed.

Because Kaz has magically heard from somebody that Zod killed Dae? I don't see the chance of some random street scum or ghoul wandering around in the Verge being able to just contact Kaz and be believed, especially since at this point in the plot Kaz is becoming distrustful.

You stated that Kaz knew they were the last people to see Dae. The character write up states he really cares about her...easy target for his anger.

Well, um, hang on. I really want to slow down here because this is a pretty huge thing you've just said. Surely the whole point of the skill system is that a dice roll can solve the PC's problems? I mean, that's what it represents, right - what the PC does using their skill to solve the problem? If not, what is the granularity of a dice roll? I mean, my understanding is that it's unfair to have the PC make a super successful Con roll and then immediately have the target ask for evidence that invalidates that roll - but that's only a general principle from games like D&D which are generally more abstracted anyway - is Shadowrun built not assuming that? I can see that WOULD make a big difference.

Dice rolls are used to help resolve a conflict, they don't have to be the only thing. The GM sets the parameters of the situation. What the value of these rolls are affected by the modifiers of the situation, and the decision to use a skill is not always up to the player. In the situation with the attempt to Con Goldman I wonder if you applied any modifiers, and when you required the roll. The player should have to at least try to convince me or present a reasonable argument, and if he does not well then go ahead roll and hope you get lucky in spite of the fact that you are a door to door donut salesman showing up at my house in the middle of the night to tell me someone is blackmailing me. Up to the GM how he runs it, the same goes with D&D. Diplomacy +20 is not an auto win unless the GM plays it as such, and based on what I have seen described you keep handing them the auto win. It is like a group of Mary Sues playing a game, no wonder you feel like they are not being challenged you keep sabotaging yourself. Well anyway I hope this helps.

[Symber]

I'm still very new to SR myself so normally I wouldn't even consider posting advice since it would really just be what everyone else, with more experience than I, has already stated. However, did you really let Zod's player roll up a second one trick pony in the form of a hacker?

It seemed like the only lesson he had possibly learned in six sessions was that only being able to shoot things was lopsided and not fun in non-combat situations, but rather than reworking Zod the player now plays as both Zod and another character, both equally overspecialized in their respective talents.

I really hope I missed something in the previous posts because that just seems like the exact wrong way to go with things. No offense intended, as many have said, fun is really whats most important and its your table.

[Stalag]

It seems weird that if a character wants to draw a picture, they need an appropriate Artisan skill, but if they draw the picture on a computer they can use Computer skill with Editl. Is there a better way to do this?

"When a gamemaster calls for a test, he will provide the player with a description of the task at hand and which skill (and linked attribute) is most appropriate for it." - SR4 p61

It's up to you to determine what skill test, or combination of skill tests, is required for any given activity. So lets take this case in particular: We'll say he's already passed the tests to find the office network, break into the office network, find the correct server or terminal, break into the server or terminal, and find the correct file and we'll assume the file itself is not secured or encrypted and did all staying undetected by any security agents. So he's got this voice file and he wants to alter it. So lets think about it - he wants to modify a digital recording of a voice to sound like the guy is confessing to his doctor about something nasty. To stand up as convincing leverage (unless the target and doctor are idiots) it would need to show a pattern of increasing confession as the doctor slowly gets him to open up so he's actually going to need to edit lots of files. A Logic+Psychology test would let him realize this.

Now, whether he realizes that or not, to edit the file he's going to need to do one of two things. He's either going to need enough samples of that voice saying the correct words with the right inflection to sound believable - or - he's going to need to say the things himself, use some software (or cyber) to alter his voice to sound identical, save it to a file, get that file into the target server, then merge it into the file or add it as a new file with an appropriate date and time stamp for one of the victims' appointments.

So the first method would be an extended data search test with a threshold determined by how long the guys been seeing this doctor (aka, how difficult you want it to be assuming you just didn't decide there simply weren't enough bits) during which time the chances of the security agents detecting him gets higher and higher. Assuming he finds all the bits he needs he then uses the edit to merge them into the file. Of course to stand up to any level of scrutiny you might also require a Logic+Psychology test for him to get the confession to sound believable with the number of hits indicating the "quality"

For the second method, he'd replace the data search with a disguise test using a voice modulator with the secondary pattern or the software equivalent (both being "F" rated) to provide the guys confession then the edit test. And, of course, there's still the psychology test so what he says is believable.

Lets also not forget that he's going to want to clean up any traces that he's been in the system so it's not obvious someone's been in there tinkering around.

Is that a lot of die rolling just to edit a file? Sure is, and I understand the desire to "dumb down" hacking... make it too much of a PITA and no one will ever want to be the hacker, which basically drops a quarter of the games possibilities. But also consider he's altering someone's private medical records. Just because he's munchkin'd himself together a super-hacker doesn't mean it has to be easy for him.

Sure, I agree. But that gets into another issue - it's kind of hard to argue where "the elite of the elite" actually are. The scaling seems way too small and the BP generation system seems to let it be violated very easily.

It also leaves very little room for character development. It's one of my main complaints about SR4.

Zod, as newly generated, was a better shot than any of the combat-themed Street Legends, and had better armor and reactions. When Zod's player was creating the hacker he practically could be heard reading off the checklist: Logic 7, Exceptional Attribute Logic, Hacking 7, Aptitude Hacking, Adept, Magic 6, Improved Non-Combat Ability Hacking 6. Wham. He's an idiot savant, but does that mean he can hack like FastJack? I don't like the idea, but I just don't see where FastJack could be getting any further bonuses from! Based on the books I've read so far, any computer ratings above 6 are military only, which means a bank can only have Firewall 6. The main book says that Credsticks have Device from 5-6 which isn't that hard even for someone who isn't idiot savant. There's no possibility that I'm going to go around letting them hack themselves infinite money but it feels like I'm having to drive a wedge into the system to do so which isn't a good feeling.

Zod's player is a munchkin - he knows how to min-max himself a character who gets every possible bonus or advantage he can to do one thing better than anyone else. On the flip side, that character only does one thing... thus Zod's player got very bored when there wasn't a demand for that thing he does. That's the danger of making a one dimensional super character. More rounded characters are less powerful but they always have something to do on a run so they're more fun to play... as long as the GM remembers they're no longer super-heroes and tones down the challenges appropriately. Another thing about being "best of the best" is that it's pretty hard to stay unnoticed when you're that good. Someone with Zod or the hackers skills are going to start to draw attention, not all of it desirable.

If power levels are really a problem though, something you might want to consider for the next campaign is lowering the starting BP. Have them start the game as thugs or gangers who aspire to become elite runners. It may not encourage them to be more rounded but it will at least give them something to aspire to.

As to anything above 6 being military only.. if that isn't going to work for your campaign then change it. For players the books are a set of rules to follow. For GM's the books are merely guidelines. Fastjack is an example of this... he's a "Prime Runner" he is beyond the bonuses and limitations listed in the book because he's an NPC and is supposed to be better than just about everyone - especially the players, no matter how well stacked their stats are.

All fair points, but I should point out that the hacker doesn't have a sniper rifle - it was Zod, not the hacker, who fired from the rooftops. And he did it with an assault rifle, not a sniper rifle, after observing that Vision Magnification works on any weapon.

Um... now see that's bad. Dumping Zod, the super elite shooter, mid-run to play a super elite hacker is one thing. Allowing a player to have two characters on the same run (or, really, in the same campaign) is a major no-no. While I'm sure it was pitched as just adding an additional team member to the group what it has really done is allowed Zod's player to have a character who is super-elite at two things and can be in two different places at once. For the next run I'd seriously consider telling him he can bring one or the other but not both. With that much "elite-ness" you're rapidly going to run out of challenges for them. Zod's player may be enjoying being all-powerful now but he's going to get bored soon since half the fun in these games is the mad scramble when things don't go the way you've planned... or if it delves into magic where there's no call for a shooter or a hacker. Then he'll want to make an uber-mage.

[Bodak]

When Zod's player was creating the hacker he practically could be heard reading off the checklist: Logic 7, Exceptional Attribute Logic, Hacking 7, Aptitude Hacking, Adept, Magic 6, Improved Non-Combat Ability Hacking 6.

Zod's player is a munchkin - he knows how to min-max himself a character who gets every possible bonus or advantage he can to do one thing better than anyone else.

He doesn't sound like he knows how to min-max to me. He's wasting 0.75 Power Points for no benefit as far as I can tell. What's the point in taking Improved Non-Combat Ability 6 times when you can only benefit from 3?

[Critias]

Logic 7, Exceptional Attribute Logic, Hacking 7, Aptitude Hacking, Adept, Magic 6, Improved Non-Combat Ability Hacking 6...

I'm not sure if it was a typo, a misremembering, or a character creation error -- but just as a tiny FYI, that will remove a few dice from Zod's-player's-second-one-trick-pony-he-gets-to-run-at-the-same-time-with-all-the-depth-of-a-die-pool, the adept power "improved ability" caps at 3.

Maybe instead of letting him (or all of them? I can't tell) keep making horribly min/maxed collections of die pools (that they are then free to retcon and edit however they like, including into or out of existence, to suit their mood), you should steer them towards making, I don't know, characters? Some of your problems might go away if they had personalities, backstories, realistic collections of stats and skills, and gave a damn about consequences because they were somehow attached to their characters.

As it is, it seems you're just playing more DiceRun, like you have for the last half dozen sessions.

'Cause, well, your campaign is pretty fucked. I think you know that, or you wouldn't be here, complaining about it after every single session, ever. Something has to change, or you'll just be back here next week, complaining some more, and when some of us suggest "change something" we didn't mean "give the biggest munchkin a second character, and let them turn their silly car into a bigger, nastier, silly truck!" And just out of morbid curiosity, but have you ever let any of the players know how frustrated you are with the direction of the campaign? Do most of them know this thread exists? Do they see that you're putting effort into a campaign that they're only putting effort into derailing?

[Yerameyahu]

Seriously. I vote nuclear option and a sound chastising. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Stalag]

Fair point - not something I was aware of. I didn't think Joe or Jane Public were generally that paranoid.

Umm.. most people in the real world are that paranoid (with good reason) and we don't have 1/10th the horrors that roam the SR universe.

That's true, and I had doubts about this. It was just moot in the end because the real Goldman was never confronted with the blackmail material.

That's not really the point though. The point was it was very easy for him so he's going to expect it to be that easy every time.

There's no nasty guns mounted on it - as I said, it just has gun ports the team can use. He didn't ask for ID because of the incredibly successful Con. And as for AR, well, despite the corebook saying that "people are online all the time", hardly anyone in any of the books actually has the Commlink + Sim Module + DNI necessary for AR, not even the opposing runners (there are quite a few people with AR gloves and no DNI or visual link, so I guess they have a kind of active feely thing going on), so I figured that AR isn't actually as popular as applied.

Okay, you keep coming back to what's "in the books" and I just mentioned it in my last post but the frequency with which you bring it up I think highlights it as the root of your problem. You're trying to play the game strictly by the books. Even if the books weren't poorly written/edited, contradictory, and horribly vague in all the wrong places you still should not be GMing strictly "by the book". I can't emphasize this enough... for the GM the books are "guides" not hard inviolate rules. As the GM this is your game and the players are running around in your world. You take what SR gives you then tweak it to make the world work how it makes sense to you, how it will support you plot and how it will allow the players and you to have fun. Be especially wary of the pre-made adventures - they are good source material but players will invariably do something not accounted for - that is where you shine or falter as a GM by how rapidly you can adapt to their hair-brained scheme and not worry that "it's not covered in the book".

Well, um, hang on. I really want to slow down here because this is a pretty huge thing you've just said. Surely the whole point of the skill system is that a dice roll can solve the PC's problems? I mean, that's what it represents, right - what the PC does using their skill to solve the problem? If not, what is the granularity of a dice roll? I mean, my understanding is that it's unfair to have the PC make a super successful Con roll and then immediately have the target ask for evidence that invalidates that roll - but that's only a general principle from games like D&D which are generally more abstracted anyway - is Shadowrun built not assuming that? I can see that WOULD make a big difference.

The tests are to see if a character is successful at performing a particular action and the GM decides what tests and how many are needed. How a player solves a problem is determined by the plan they come up with and what actions they decide to take. The test itself is not the resolution to the problem, it is only the vehicle for the resolution. If the plan is flawed or they don't take the right actions then it won't matter how successful the skill roll is... in fact there can be times when the more successful the wrong action is the deeper in trouble they'll be. That's like saying Zod's gun killed all those people.. no, Zod (or more specifically his player) killed all those people. Also don't forget that there can be such a thing as a threshold of "impossible"... If some dude is in my house with no clear reason to be there it really wouldn't matter how charismatic he is, cops are getting called.

[Stalag]

He doesn't sound like he knows how to min-max to me. He's wasting 0.75 Power Points for no benefit as far as I can tell. What's the point in taking Improved Non-Combat Ability 6 times when you can only benefit from 3?

Touche (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

You need to also read (re-read?) Unwired. A bank is not a single rating 6 node, and 'hacking a credstick' a rating 6 doesn't create money. There are whole sections on matrix topology, security, etc., and on counterfeiting.

And AR is everything. You can use AR on the screen of your commlink, with your earbuds, anything. DNI/simsense is merely the best, easiest way.

[suoq]

Waiting for "session X: Where we claim we've been trolling dumpshock".

[Traul]

I don't know... Do you really think one can make up stuff like creating a second character to play between combat scenes?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I don't know... Do you really think one can make up stuff like creating a second character to play between combat scenes?

Well, it sure makes overcoming that obstacle, that you did not anticipate, very easy to circumvent. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
"Wait a second, I got a character [Idea] for that. Give me a few..."

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

"When a gamemaster calls for a test, he will provide the player with a description of the task at hand and which skill (and linked attribute) is most appropriate for it." - SR4 p61

It's up to you to determine what skill test, or combination of skill tests, is required for any given activity. So lets take this case in particular: We'll say he's already passed the tests to find the office network, break into the office network, find the correct server or terminal, break into the server or terminal, and find the correct file and we'll assume the file itself is not secured or encrypted and did all staying undetected by any security agents. [snip]

Is that a lot of die rolling just to edit a file? Sure is, and I understand the desire to "dumb down" hacking... make it too much of a PITA and no one will ever want to be the hacker, which basically drops a quarter of the games possibilities. But also consider he's altering someone's private medical records. Just because he's munchkin'd himself together a super-hacker doesn't mean it has to be easy for him.

These are all good points that are perhaps easy to make with enough time on a message board, but I know a lot of people who won't be able to invent all that on the fly at the table, especially with no idea that this sort of thing might come up. As I said, I don't know the module at all.

It also leaves very little room for character development. It's one of my main complaints about SR4.

Scrap the caps, post char-gen, solves everything...

Zod's player is a munchkin - he knows how to min-max himself a character who gets every possible bonus or advantage he can to do one thing better than anyone else. On the flip side, that character only does one thing... thus Zod's player got very bored when there wasn't a demand for that thing he does. That's the danger of making a one dimensional super character. More rounded characters are less powerful but they always have something to do on a run so they're more fun to play... as long as the GM remembers they're no longer super-heroes and tones down the challenges appropriately. Another thing about being "best of the best" is that it's pretty hard to stay unnoticed when you're that good. Someone with Zod or the hackers skills are going to start to draw attention, not all of it desirable.

If power levels are really a problem though, something you might want to consider for the next campaign is lowering the starting BP. Have them start the game as thugs or gangers who aspire to become elite runners. It may not encourage them to be more rounded but it will at least give them something to aspire to.

No, reroll all the chars with Karma-gen, instant balance!

As to anything above 6 being military only.. if that isn't going to work for your campaign then change it. For players the books are a set of rules to follow. For GM's the books are merely guidelines. Fastjack is an example of this... he's a "Prime Runner" he is beyond the bonuses and limitations listed in the book because he's an NPC and is supposed to be better than just about everyone - especially the players, no matter how well stacked their stats are.

If NPCs are by default better in your game and don't follow the rules, then remind me never to join one of your games. That attitude is utter crap.

I'm not sure if it was a typo, a misremembering, or a character creation error -- but just as a tiny FYI, that will remove a few dice from Zod's-player's-second-one-trick-pony-he-gets-to-run-at-the-same-time-with-all-the-depth-of-a-die-pool, the adept power "improved ability" caps at 3.

Maybe instead of letting him (or all of them? I can't tell) keep making horribly min/maxed collections of die pools (that they are then free to retcon and edit however they like, including into or out of existence, to suit their mood), you should steer them towards making, I don't know, characters? Some of your problems might go away if they had personalities, backstories, realistic collections of stats and skills, and gave a damn about consequences because they were somehow attached to their characters.

As it is, it seems you're just playing more DiceRun, like you have for the last half dozen sessions.

Karmagen, Karmagen... how often do I have to repeat myself? I could chant this all day. BP-buy practically forces you to do this, the only redeeming point is free knowledge skills.

Look, I've recently tried to roll up some LOW-powered opposition for my runners in my own campaign, and even an idiot corporate grunt who is no more than fodder came out with like 450-500BP! Because the NUMBERS are SO EXPENSIVE you can only build valid characters if you min-max like crazy.

'Cause, well, your campaign is pretty fucked. I think you know that, or you wouldn't be here, complaining about it after every single session, ever. Something has to change, or you'll just be back here next week, complaining some more, and when some of us suggest "change something" we didn't mean "give the biggest munchkin a second character, and let them turn their silly car into a bigger, nastier, silly truck!" And just out of morbid curiosity, but have you ever let any of the players know how frustrated you are with the direction of the campaign? Do most of them know this thread exists? Do they see that you're putting effort into a campaign that they're only putting effort into derailing?

Actually, the campaign doesn't seem so fucked to me. It's just the BOOK-campaign that is fucked, which means it's about time the GM realizes that he should throw out the book!

Umm.. most people in the real world are that paranoid (with good reason) and we don't have 1/10th the horrors that roam the SR universe.

And yet people are VERY EASILY cheated! All the time. Because we can't multitask and diverting our attention usually works, even against suspicious people. That's what good con-artists do: avert all self-defence mechanisms of anyone not trained to avoid these tactics. So basically a good con roll stands. Of course he should have used modifiers.

Okay, you keep coming back to what's "in the books" and I just mentioned it in my last post but the frequency with which you bring it up I think highlights it as the root of your problem. You're trying to play the game strictly by the books. Even if the books weren't poorly written/edited, contradictory, and horribly vague in all the wrong places you still should not be GMing strictly "by the book". I can't emphasize this enough... for the GM the books are "guides" not hard inviolate rules. As the GM this is your game and the players are running around in your world. You take what SR gives you then tweak it to make the world work how it makes sense to you, how it will support you plot and how it will allow the players and you to have fun. Be especially wary of the pre-made adventures - they are good source material but players will invariably do something not accounted for - that is where you shine or falter as a GM by how rapidly you can adapt to their hair-brained scheme and not worry that "it's not covered in the book".

This is the big deal: Hyphz, you NEED to change what's in the adventure in order to adapt to your players. However, this has to be done carefully, so that the general game world does not get disrupted in the process.

The tests are to see if a character is successful at performing a particular action and the GM decides what tests and how many are needed. How a player solves a problem is determined by the plan they come up with and what actions they decide to take. The test itself is not the resolution to the problem, it is only the vehicle for the resolution. If the plan is flawed or they don't take the right actions then it won't matter how successful the skill roll is... in fact there can be times when the more successful the wrong action is the deeper in trouble they'll be. That's like saying Zod's gun killed all those people.. no, Zod (or more specifically his player) killed all those people. Also don't forget that there can be such a thing as a threshold of "impossible"... If some dude is in my house with no clear reason to be there it really wouldn't matter how charismatic he is, cops are getting called.

I would say this is a bad D&D heritage, because D&D is so horrible in that regard. It's clearly too easy to do social tests in D&D, and if you come from there, then results will be similarly terrible. However, that's a learning process.

Hyphz:

I keep finding myself agreeing with your individual reasonings, when defending your decisions, because you are suffering for other people's mistakes. However, the key idea is to separate the responsibility, and see where YOU and your players have failed. SR isn't a system like D&D that you can run and expect it to not fail within a certain safety margin (even D&D still does!).

Again, I can't repeat myself often enough:
Redo ALL the characters with Karmagen
Introduce some sort of opposition that is at least on the same level as the PCs - i.e. put some other min-maxed bad-asses out there. And also improve general bad guys to be at least a threat in numbers.
Change the campaign where necessary.

The other things you don't really NEED to change, but should:
Most of the solution mechanics the PCs have used could have come from some action movie. That's FINE, except, have you seen a movie that is a cakewalk for the main character from beginning to end? It's boring.
So basically, you can keep the very simple, highly abstracted skill mechanics, but you do need to increase the thresholds - and in a non-linear fashion, so that easy tests are still possible for your run-of-the-mill opposition, but the kind of crazy over-the-top stunts your PCs want to do with one roll become a LOT harder than a 5 threshold.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Again, I can't repeat myself often enough:
Redo ALL the characters with Karmagen
Introduce some sort of opposition that is at least on the same level as the PCs - i.e. put some other min-maxed bad-asses out there. And also improve general bad guys to be at least a threat in numbers.
Change the campaign where necessary.

This is not a universal solution. Not all tables are the same. Using Karma Gen, My characters tend to be MORE powerful than in BP Gen. Even with the changes from the German Documents. I have better Stats, Better Skills, and more contacts. Now, this may be because I do not go overboard and super specialize. I also do not use a lot of Metatypes. I play, primarily, humans. In BP, my Stats always start at 3 and adjust from there, so statwise, the character is about average, or a little better. Skill wise, I follow the Fluff, so my Skiulls tend to range from 1-3, with an Occasional 4 or 5. They are very rare. What this means in Play, for Karma Gen, is that I start with almost double the number of skills.

BP works well, if you avoid the temptation to go for the 20+ Dicepool. If you stick at around 10-12 Dice for Primary Skills, and 6-9 Dice for Secondary/Tertiary Skills, you will have very well rounded characters. And since the opposition in the Main books are also sporting these levels of Dice Pools, you will be challenged. Now, If you choose to go the other route and Overspecialize, there is nothing in the books that can challenge you, and as a result, you will likely be bored. *shrug*

[Cheops]

Shadowrun unfortunately does such a shitty job of providing scaling difficulty that you can't blame a new GM for not being able to scale opposition to the team. There is very little guidance for how to do so.

What I like to do is follow the D&D4 encounter mechanics for SR. Controllers are the guys with machine guns laying down suppressive fire or mages with area manipulation spells. Soldiers are your guys in milspec armor that are damn tough to kill and try to draw all the party fire. Lurkers use ruthenium polymers or magic to stay out of sight until they strike. Brutes are the goons who charge in with shotguns, swords, and smgs to try a close combat assault. Skirmishers are the ones who work around the flanks and force the party to split their resources. Finally, artillery are the snipers and long range fighters.

I like to make Leaders the hacker and distribute bonuses to the rest of the opposition as long as he is around. Knock him out and suddenly the opposition gets easier as they lose their bonuses. Elites and Solos would be your BBEGs.

You barely even have to stat the opposition up if you use this approach. Just magic tea party it like the rest of the SR4 rules while remembering to stick to the flavor of the particular role. Also, fudge rolls like a mad man.

[Mardrax]

If power levels are really a problem though, something you might want to consider for the next campaign is lowering the starting BP. Have them start the game as thugs or gangers who aspire to become elite runners. It may not encourage them to be more rounded but it will at least give them something to aspire to.

Let me just repeat here: lowering starting BP will more often increase the problem of hyperspecialising, than decrease it. A 300 BP build will not even be able to buy all Attributes up to 3, as this takes 160 BP, passing the 150 BP Attribute limit. It'll generally result in characters that are as specialised in one thing as they can afford, while being complete retards at everything else.

If you want balanced characters, with some more depth to them than Mr Shoots-Ants-A-Mile-Away, use karmagen. And possibly provide free knowledge skills and/or contacts as desired.

He aced his Con roll with 5+ net hits, and so was believed.

Social skills are not mind control.
Also, as has been said, make sure you apply the modifiers from the Social Modifiers table. (SR4A pg 131) They tend to stack up things in the defender's favour quite rapidly.

The warehouse was in the Verge which is described as having no police patrols. And in any case, these points don't matter because the chance of their being seen or heard by anyone powerful enough to not be bullet fodder for Zod is pretty much nil.

A failed surprise roll and a short burst or two go a long way toward making Zod bullet fodder himself for the lowliest of gangers. This is a game of glass cannons. It's not about how much damage you can deal. It's about how much you can deal before going down yourself, and wether or not that's enough to clear the opposition. And in the case of a lone gunman, that's not a whole lot. Since I doubt his Perception is high enough to match his dakka-dealing capability, he's likely to be surprised. And surprise is lethal.

Because if you see a truck owned by a group of known murderers while you're walking down the street, the number one thing you're going to do is to go and find the number of an almost as nasty local gang boss and call him out of the blue, for a trivial amount of money, at the cost of getting yourself "involved"? Normal people flee from any sort of criminal activity in the real world, and that's one where the criminals don't have heavy assault rifles and freakin' magic.

This is all going on in the Barrens.
In the Barrens, 100¥ is not a trivial ammount of money. You're talking an environment where people are generally SINless. They don't officially exist. They can't get legal jobs. Most trade tends to be in the form of barter, because money is scarce, not to mention useless to most. 100¥ buys weeks worth of food with the right person. Money buys drugs, weapons, favours with those in power. You're talking an environment where you live and die by being in the dominant gang of your block, or by being in their favour. Next to the priceless favour this one phone call would buy them, it would firmly establish the caller as someone who supports the gang, and who can be trusted as an informant. The first alone should get people interested. The second might bring the gleam of more snitching rewards to people's eyes.
These are not normal people, this is not the real world. This is a world where gangs and their associated activities are impossible to get away from for a large ammount of the populace. Where these things make up as common a part of their lives as the constant police surveilance -and the benefits of law enforcement that provides- do to the well-offs.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

This is not a universal solution. Not all tables are the same. Using Karma Gen, My characters tend to be MORE powerful than in BP Gen. Even with the changes from the German Documents. I have better Stats, Better Skills, and more contacts. Now, this may be because I do not go overboard and super specialize. I also do not use a lot of Metatypes. I play, primarily, humans. In BP, my Stats always start at 3 and adjust from there, so statwise, the character is about average, or a little better. Skill wise, I follow the Fluff, so my Skiulls tend to range from 1-3, with an Occasional 4 or 5. They are very rare. What this means in Play, for Karma Gen, is that I start with almost double the number of skills.

BP works well, if you avoid the temptation to go for the 20+ Dicepool. If you stick at around 10-12 Dice for Primary Skills, and 6-9 Dice for Secondary/Tertiary Skills, you will have very well rounded characters. And since the opposition in the Main books are also sporting these levels of Dice Pools, you will be challenged. Now, If you choose to go the other route and Overspecialize, there is nothing in the books that can challenge you, and as a result, you will likely be bored. *shrug*

They might be more powerful, but they SHOULD be less over-specialised, reducing the problem of the idiot-savant who will feel bored during a session where his specialisation doesn't come up.

Also, when you have more well-rounded characters, you can also make more well-rounded opposition. If character attributes go from 1 to 10, with very little in between, an opposition targetting the weak stat can with just 6 dice can overpower a character. If character attributes go from 4-8 or so then this is much less of a problem. Also, with karmagen, the world doesn't break down so easily, because you can actually make a average guy at least semi-competent with half the karma the PCs get.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

They might be more powerful, but they SHOULD be less over-specialised, reducing the problem of the idiot-savant who will feel bored during a session where his specialisation doesn't come up.

Since my characters are not Over-specialized to start with, they end up more powerful, because they can now cover more bases. Which was really my point. If you do not over-specialize, then BP works just fine. If you do Overspecialize, you will still have the Hyper specialist, and still be more powerful. At least in my experience. Players will try to go as high as they can, until somone points out that that is less fun, overall, for a given table. Unless, of course, it is not. At which point, there should be no complaints at all.

Also, when you have more well-rounded characters, you can also make more well-rounded opposition. If character attributes go from 1 to 10, with very little in between, an opposition targetting the weak stat can with just 6 dice can overpower a character. If character attributes go from 4-8 or so then this is much less of a problem. Also, with karmagen, the world doesn't break down so easily, because you can actually make a average guy at least semi-competent with half the karma the PCs get.

True, but this was not what I was addressing. It follows that if the characters fall into the midline of what is published in the books, then opposition will be a threat. This is a very unpopular opinion (That the Books presuppose a certain level of accomplishment) on these boards, however.

[Mardrax]

Also, with karmagen, the world doesn't break down so easily, because you can actually make a average guy at least semi-competent with half the karma the PCs get.

Except the world shouldn't care wether you use karmagen, BPgen, pure handwavium, or anywhere in between to make up an NPC. It's wether or not that NPC does what you want it to that counts. They're a story aids, actors, not math problems.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Except the world shouldn't care wether you use karmagen, BPgen, pure handwavium, or anywhere in between to make up an NPC. It's wether or not that NPC does what you want it to that counts. They're a story aids, actors, not math problems.

Indeed...

[Neraph]

He bundled her body into her car, stole her weapons and commlink (getting her real identity and her contact for Kaz) and dumped both of them at the Ragers' chapterhouse, then headed back to meet the other runners who were considering how to spend their 100,000ny.

This seems to be a theme from your group - they are constantly looting bodies. Where are your RFID tags? Your anit-theft systems? Your biometrically-locked devices?

[Mardrax]

This seems to be a theme from your group - they are constantly looting bodies. Where are your RFID tags? Your anit-theft systems? Your biometrically-locked devices?

As if published adventures include these. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Traul]

This seems to be a theme from your group - they are constantly looting bodies. Where are your RFID tags? Your anit-theft systems? Your biometrically-locked devices?

From an NPC point of view, they are useless: if the NPC ever loses his device, it's because a PC loots it from his body, so why should he still care? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)