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Irion
post Sep 18 2011, 07:06 AM
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Startet here:http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...5817&st=150

This thread is about how to discuss rules.

What is RAW and what is RAI? And how to to get RAW or RAI from the text.
Examples of shadowrun can be used in this thread.

A short introduction (my way of seeing it):
If talking about the rules as written (RAW) you mean the rules how they are stated in the text. Meaning you only take into account the wording of the rules.
Even if it leads to characters beeing unable to move, even if they are naked, people beeing able to hit a guy playing soccer in 1 mile distance 100% of the time, granades kill someone who would not even get a scratch from a direct hit of a assault cannon etc.

This means you leave anything outside the rules out. No fluff, no descriptions not even common sense. And most important no thoughts about balance of any thought. (It would be too strong/A character like that would be unplayable are argument which should not be used in a RAW discussion.)
RAI allows for fluff or similar ruling to be used. Those is of course only helpfull if RAW is seen as bad worded, meaning it is said like it would mean A but it is possible the intention was B.

@Neraph
QUOTE ("Neraph")
QUOTE ("Irion")

QUOTE ("Neraph")
if someone were to say that all guns shot fish in SR and you said that they do not, the way to "win" this is not to simply yell back and forth at each other but to quote a place where guns are loaded with bullets and not fish. I'm not asking you to prove me wrong, I'm asking you to prove yourself right.

And thats where you are wrong. You have to provide at least hints, that the guns are shooting fish.
Thats exactly what shifting the burden of proof means.

[1]All you need is an idea to assert a claim. [2]You need to quote rules to try and prove your side. The burden of proof is on the person making a claim. [3]Whenever one disagrees with someone else, the person in disagreement should quote rules or bring proof that their idea is valid. That is the very nature of the burden of proof.

I have insertet numbers to address the different parts of your statement:
[1]Yes, but the burden of proof is on you. (for your claim. Since mostly the other side has also a claim, they have their own "burden of proof")
[2]Yes, this is exactly what I said and it is contradicting your fish example.
[3]To a disagreement you need at least two people. Both are disagreeing with each other. This is contradicting your point made before, that "the burden of proof is on the person making a claim".
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Posts in this topic
- Irion   [Meta]How to discuss   Sep 18 2011, 07:06 AM
- - Yerameyahu   Just PM the guy.   Sep 18 2011, 07:56 AM
- - CanRay   Oh, sure, be logical and sensible about things. ...   Sep 18 2011, 08:23 AM
- - Glyph   The rules generally require some interpretation, a...   Sep 18 2011, 10:31 AM
- - hobgoblin   Another issue is that while this forum may assume ...   Sep 18 2011, 11:09 AM
- - Irion   @Glyph I disagree that the wording is mostly vague...   Sep 18 2011, 12:35 PM
- - suoq   QUOTE (Irion @ Sep 18 2011, 01:06 AM) Thi...   Sep 18 2011, 01:17 PM
|- - hobgoblin   QUOTE (suoq @ Sep 18 2011, 03:17 PM) (I t...   Sep 18 2011, 02:17 PM
|- - Paul   QUOTE (suoq @ Sep 18 2011, 09:17 AM) What...   Sep 18 2011, 02:29 PM
- - Yerameyahu   I dunno, suoq, that's a pretty easy one. I...   Sep 18 2011, 01:46 PM
|- - suoq   QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Sep 18 2011, 08:46 AM...   Sep 18 2011, 02:14 PM
|- - Tymeaus Jalynsfein   QUOTE (suoq @ Sep 18 2011, 07:14 AM) Agre...   Sep 18 2011, 03:23 PM
- - suoq   My current guess is that it's a matrix rating ...   Sep 18 2011, 02:24 PM
- - hobgoblin   Except that System is specifically defined as limi...   Sep 18 2011, 02:30 PM
|- - suoq   QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Sep 18 2011, 08:30 AM)...   Sep 18 2011, 03:00 PM
- - Yerameyahu   Which is why Firewall isn't. They had to speci...   Sep 18 2011, 02:45 PM
- - suoq   And this is what I mean. There's no justifica...   Sep 18 2011, 04:10 PM
|- - Tymeaus Jalynsfein   QUOTE (suoq @ Sep 18 2011, 10:10 AM) And ...   Sep 18 2011, 04:17 PM
- - Yerameyahu   Well, there's not *no* justification. There ar...   Sep 18 2011, 04:16 PM
|- - suoq   QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Sep 18 2011, 10:16 AM...   Sep 18 2011, 05:53 PM
- - Glyph   The "awe, deference and kindness" as lon...   Sep 18 2011, 05:15 PM
|- - Draco18s   QUOTE (Glyph @ Sep 18 2011, 01:15 PM) The...   Sep 18 2011, 06:33 PM
- - Yerameyahu   That doesn't make sense. If a given (interpret...   Sep 18 2011, 05:57 PM
|- - suoq   QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Sep 18 2011, 11:57 AM...   Sep 18 2011, 06:08 PM
- - Yerameyahu   It's vague because it might mean 'all data...   Sep 18 2011, 06:13 PM
|- - suoq   QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Sep 18 2011, 01:13 PM...   Sep 18 2011, 07:44 PM
- - Yerameyahu   We've read the books (mostly core and Unwired)...   Sep 18 2011, 07:49 PM
|- - suoq   QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Sep 18 2011, 01:49 PM...   Sep 18 2011, 08:28 PM
- - Yerameyahu   It's not really 'broadcast', that...   Sep 18 2011, 08:37 PM
|- - suoq   QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Sep 18 2011, 03:37 PM...   Sep 18 2011, 10:23 PM
- - Yerameyahu   I don't think it implies that, though. It...   Sep 18 2011, 10:36 PM
|- - suoq   I see it this way: When you log in, as in logging...   Sep 19 2011, 01:24 AM
- - Yerameyahu   But you can 'view' a node without logging ...   Sep 19 2011, 01:31 AM
|- - suoq   QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Sep 18 2011, 08:31 PM...   Sep 19 2011, 10:57 AM
- - Irion   QUOTE See, that's not what I think the OP want...   Sep 19 2011, 07:57 AM
|- - suoq   QUOTE (Irion @ Sep 19 2011, 02:57 AM) Wha...   Sep 19 2011, 10:56 AM
|- - Draco18s   QUOTE (Irion @ Sep 19 2011, 03:57 AM) If ...   Sep 19 2011, 05:09 PM
- - Irion   @suoq I would arguee there are levels of awe. A...   Sep 19 2011, 12:19 PM
|- - suoq   QUOTE (Irion @ Sep 19 2011, 06:19 AM) It ...   Sep 19 2011, 12:48 PM
- - Irion   @suoq But here I stand arguing reason if we are di...   Sep 19 2011, 01:47 PM
- - Yerameyahu   I don't understand, suoq. Why does it confuse ...   Sep 19 2011, 07:27 PM
|- - suoq   QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Sep 19 2011, 01:27 PM...   Sep 20 2011, 12:24 PM
- - hobgoblin   There is public access (SR4A 225, Unwired 52). I w...   Sep 20 2011, 12:35 PM
- - Yerameyahu   Yes, suoq, that's exactly what I'm saying....   Sep 20 2011, 01:04 PM
|- - suoq   QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Sep 20 2011, 08:04 AM...   Sep 20 2011, 05:03 PM
- - Ascalaphus   You people need to accept (embrace, even) that som...   Sep 20 2011, 01:12 PM
- - hobgoblin   Not helping that the matrix rules have gone thru 3...   Sep 20 2011, 01:46 PM
- - Yerameyahu   Yes, but giving search rights to restricted area a...   Sep 20 2011, 05:06 PM
|- - suoq   QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Sep 20 2011, 12:06 PM...   Sep 20 2011, 05:13 PM
- - Ascalaphus   @suoq: I think it's an introductory paragraph,...   Sep 20 2011, 05:46 PM
- - Yerameyahu   It's *one* sentence later in the same paragrap...   Sep 20 2011, 07:07 PM
- - Tymeaus Jalynsfein   QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Sep 20 2011, 01:07 PM...   Sep 20 2011, 07:48 PM


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