3rd Edition Decks, Why are they missed? Options

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Know why the Combat Decker was an Ork in SR3?
Because Hardening wasn't only internal, but also available for the casing.
Making it into a Shild with which you could bash in heads too!
Try and do that with one of them comlinks todays "hackers" use . .

Which is why you use a Nexus instead. Or build a Custom "Comlink" setup and place it in your armored Fairlight Excaliber Case.

[Seerow]

Know why the Combat Decker was an Ork in SR3?
Because Hardening wasn't only internal, but also available for the casing.
Making it into a Shild with which you could bash in heads too!
Try and do that with one of them comlinks todays "hackers" use . .

lol that actually sounds kind of fun. Though if you had hardening that good on commlinks, I'd make a warhammer with the 'link built into the head, rather than using it as a shield.

[Yerameyahu]

Um. There *is* armor and stuff for the SR4 commlinks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[CanRay]

Um. There *is* armor and stuff for the SR4 commlinks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Yeah, and maybe if you have it attached to your belt it might hurt a little bit when you hit someone with it.

...

Actually, that's not a bad idea. A Troll Hacker pulling off his belt and going, "That's it, time for me to play Daddy. Where's the woodshed?"

[Yerameyahu]

Hell, install the commlink inside a baseball bat, if that's what you're dying for.

[LurkerOutThere]

But you're not going to share, are you? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Sure, why not.

[hobgoblin]

Not Clustering, Nexi. A low-end nexus would give you additional Processor Limit, though not better Matrix Attributes. But neither will Clustering.

And the low end of Nexi is described as "laptop" size.

[Ascalaphus]

Yes, but the Response/Availability ratio on the nexi in Unwired is rather underwhelming.

[LurkerOutThere]

Eh, it makes sense to me. Technology has progressed to the point where bigger is not necessarily better, and processing power doesn't get increased from a direct increase in size.

Honestly that idea bends physics for me even more then a system with elves, trolls and magic.

One thing that SR4 did somewhat mess up on is the processing pwoer difference between man portable and terminal on that we absolutely agree upon. Of course in previous editions you saw the highly placed computer company ceo with a cyberdeck on his desk so the trend isn't new.

On the other having this idea that your going to invest constantly over the course of your career in your deck just to eek out performance increases just encourages hyper specialization and thereby encourages the hacker to stay in the decker bunker or die, or risk having their lifetime investment stolen when they are sleeping.

[Cheops]

On the other having this idea that your going to invest constantly over the course of your career in your deck just to eek out performance increases just encourages hyper specialization and thereby encourages the hacker to stay in the decker bunker or die, or risk having their lifetime investment stolen when they are sleeping.

Not per se. There were 3 viable routes for deck advancement as I said up thread: buy it (which you are complaining about), build it, or steal it. The second two cost no money and none of the three cost you Karma. Then there is also favors from contacts and we had warez rules at our table long before SR4 was around (we'd often release programs to the community in exchange for access to other programs). So the only advancement option above that actually stunts your growth is if you are spending all your cash on upgrades instead of augmentations/upgrades. You still earned karma and could spend that wherever you wanted (decking was largely 2 skills -- Computer and Electronics -- so you could be more versatile). And with no realistic skill cap you could hyper-specialize and actually aspire to beat Captain Chaos or Fastjack.

I'm not saying hyper-specialized deckers didn't exist but I felt that SR3 allowed for more versatility for deckers than SR4 does. And deckers only stayed in the van after Matrix was released (wireless rules) before that they were in dumpsters, sewers, elevator shafts, storage closets, etc, or the frontlines. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I'm not saying hyper-specialized deckers didn't exist but I felt that SR3 allowed for more versatility for deckers than SR4 does. And deckers only stayed in the van after Matrix was released (wireless rules) before that they were in dumpsters, sewers, elevator shafts, storage closets, etc, or the frontlines. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

I disagree with this somewhat.

I have yet to have any of My Hckers not be onsite (the alternative just seems boring to me, so yes, it is a personal choice). The technomancer tried that, but gave up on it when he kept getting shut down/jammed/disconnected (Sucks to have a poor Signal Range). Some things you can do remotely, for everything else, nothing beats being there (in the Dumpsters, sewers, elevator shafts, storage closets, etc). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[suoq]

Why would anyone connect their "paydata" to the matrix? Did the future lose the technology that allowed them to have closed networks?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Why would anyone connect their "paydata" to the matrix? Did the future lose the technology that allowed them to have closed networks?

They wouldn't. And No. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[CanRay]

Why would anyone connect their "paydata" to the matrix? Did the future lose the technology that allowed them to have closed networks?

No, but when you're running a distributed network of researchers, developers, and engineers the world over, you need them to be able to access the information they all need at the same time, especially with updates happening by the hour.

Thus, IC.

[suoq]

No, but when you're running a distributed network of researchers, developers, and engineers the world over, you need them to be able to access the information they all need at the same time, especially with updates happening by the hour.

Thus, IC.

Are you saying the information they need to be able to access the world over includes "the good stuff"?

If I'm hiring shadowrunners, I want someone who can get the private data, not their mail and timecards. Those updates happening by the hour shared across the world is just business as usual. Next week, no one cares about that stuff. Let IC protect that from the script kiddies.

[hobgoblin]

For some reason, SR4 dropped some of the "tricks" used by corporations to keep their private data just that.

One trick was to only connect their corporate net to the matrix at various dates and times, and at a new "location" each time.

The latter bit likely only worked in earlier editions because of the very strict system of LTG and RTG routing. With SR4 the routing is more internet then phone network (another indication that SR4 have distanced itself from the 80s phreaker and BBS sub-culture), and as such any connection is "local".

Another was the use of what in essence where virtual machines. There would look like the real thing, down to holding what appeared at first glance to be paydata, but was basically a elaborate program running on top of the real target. Why this did not make its way into Unwired i have no clue about. Closest seems to be decoys found on page 72 of Unwired.

[hermit]

Sure, why not.

Reported for insult. Also, Moore's Law ignores some fundamentals of physics, but to his credit he acknowledged that a year back or something. Nothing about mobility in it, of course, unless you interpret it the way you want to.

For some reason, SR4 dropped some of the "tricks" used by corporations to keep their private data just that.

"Accessability". The same reason why there are people who have their guns run in open wireless so they can be hacked. It's a meta deal to make a combat hacker who can hack everything viable, and has nothing to do with ingame logic. By that, anyone who puts sensitive data on a node connected to the wifi network without a glacier-like chokepoint could just as well not bother keeping secrets at all.

[Cheops]

The latter bit likely only worked in earlier editions because of the very strict system of LTG and RTG routing.

This still works. The SR4 BBB states that all that infrastructure is still there. That's how your signal is able to reach across the mostly empty wilderness of SSC and Sioux to reach the East Coast. The writers just didn't offer it as a security measure in anything I remember reading (at work so AFB). Corporation just has to program a signal repeater to power on every so often (regular intervals or algo based) and crawl-bots to reach out and snag updates from distributed workers. They don't formally call the phone company and ask to be connected to individual modems -- they just fly through the clouds.

Accessibility is a huge thing. Technically if the whole team (runner or corporate R&D) is dialed-in to the network they should be running bonuses. Unfortunately the people writing the rule books didn't seem to want to step in and tell GMs what appropriate bonuses should be for doing so. This is what drew me in to SR4. Unfortunately the rules weren't up to snuff for stopping hacking attempts by anything but a greasy, wet fart so they lost me there.

[LurkerOutThere]

Reported for insult. Also, Moore's Law ignores some fundamentals of physics, but to his credit he acknowledged that a year back or something. Nothing about mobility in it, of course, unless you interpret it the way you want to.

Someone woke up cranky today. More's law actually was a around a lot earlier then I recall reading about it, but the idea is sound, and he made no predictions past the ten year mark. To say that as computing power increases past the benchmark's it needs to fill it's function yet portability is not going to increase is just silly. Now we're in an age of resource bloat so a slow down threshhold is being hit, but I think it's safe to say that if you asked a computer or electronic engineer in the eighties if they thought cyberdeck style personal computers would be the apex of our tech curve. I mean what, the star trek communicator debuted in the sixties, a radical bit of technological guesswork that not only was born out but actually influenced the way technology developed.

[suoq]

More pre-1982, Fell free to report me as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynabook (yay, Alan Kay and smalltalk references)

http://oldcomputers.net/trs80pc1.html - I actually owned one of these. Humor note, the tape deck I stored my software on was much larger and heavier than the computer the software ran on. I still have the thing in a box somewhere. - Note: July 1980.

Shrinking portable computing power wasn't a "theory" in 1982. It was a market.

[Fatum]

Are you saying the information they need to be able to access the world over includes "the good stuff"?

If I'm hiring shadowrunners, I want someone who can get the private data, not their mail and timecards. Those updates happening by the hour shared across the world is just business as usual. Next week, no one cares about that stuff. Let IC protect that from the script kiddies.

Uh, yeah, it's the stuff they're working on right now, remember? More than just being feasible, actually, things like that happen in RL, with VPNs/cryptotunnels/whatever connecting the remote points. With SR decryption revolution, those are just not safe any more, but it's not like the corps have any choice (or rather, yeah, they could build their own world-spanning data transmission lines, for example, through their private commsat constellations, but you can always say you can cut into those lines, too, and mechanics support that).

[Neurosis]

I did play 3e and I don't get what the love for the old decks was either. I can understand to some degree wanting to be able to increase your hardware as you got better, but the exact mechanics used were pretty awful.

Choose program rating. Then find program multiplier. Then consult a table to find program size in mp. Then consult another table to find cost per megapulse by rating. Then multiply size by (cost per megapulse) to determine program cost.

Yeuck.

[suoq]

it's not like the corps have any choice

Of course they have a choice. They can co-locate everyone on the project.

As an example:
1) Purchase a missile base. http://www.missilebases.com/properties
2) Install guards, computers, research facilities, etc.
3) ???
4) profit

As a more serious example, co-locate everyone in an archology.

If the financial risk of having things on the matrix exceeds the value of co-locating and running a local wired network, then yes, they have a choice. Running your secrets through communications not under your control strikes me as a major security risk.

[Pendaric]

Decking third ed was more interesting from an artistry point of view/playing the game long term.

SR4 is more accessable, streamlined and less brain ache in the mass cluster frag of a session.

Both have flaws, mostly with common sense/game world reality failure.

I still play SR3 and frankly never understood the problem with intergrating decking into the game, mechanically or visually. The only time it was an issue was when a player was trying to deck everything/ignoring the ettiquette of share the ref. Which is true of any character type.

SR3 decking is bit like go/chess/ma jong. You need to think about it, like it and to get good takes effort. To become great, a lot of effort and in some cases, maths. That kind of commitment is off putting for starters and some veterns and for (of course) the refs, who really need to know more than the PC.

But this complexity makes it interesting and evolving long term- with more tricks and perzazz and all that brings

The decker bunker, like the impregnable rigger tank, or the astral only wizzer or pornomancer should be and clearly advertised before game start/PC creation going to fail as viable at some point if you actually want to play that character.

Should these concepts exist in the game, yes. You think your going to dictate to the rest of the group of people your playing with how they are going to spend their evening, no.

SR4 on the other hand, does the job and makes it easy. Easy gets boring like maddeningly difficult, just the other way round.

But I still think a Jack is better than trodes (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif) . Try it, add jack to any other word and it becomes cooler, even its self.

[CanRay]

Uh, yeah, it's the stuff they're working on right now, remember? More than just being feasible, actually, things like that happen in RL, with VPNs/cryptotunnels/whatever connecting the remote points. With SR decryption revolution, those are just not safe any more, but it's not like the corps have any choice (or rather, yeah, they could build their own world-spanning data transmission lines, for example, through their private commsat constellations, but you can always say you can cut into those lines, too, and mechanics support that).

In addition, never underestimate the "Ease of Use" argument that Execs who never worked a day in their lives will use to override security experts, IT experts, and white hat hacking experts.

Because, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter how many years of experience someone has, it doesn't matter how many problems they staved off before they were issues, it doesn't matter how much IC they wrote and update... It's the guy in the corner office with the 750¥ haircut, the 5000¥ suit, and the low golf score that makes all the decisions.

OK, probably letting a tiny little of bitterness come out in that post... But I think you get where I'm going. It's not the experts who are in charge of the Wireless Matrix and what goes on it.

If the suit in charge has pull and knows what he's doing, he'll have it in a Wi-Fi Sealed Room with Hardline connections only, bring the scientists and engineers, and their families, to the R&D site, and so on. Keep things secure.

If the suit in charge is more interested in fast and cheap, he'll have it put on the matrix with a lot of online security and leave the eggheads at "Home" where they can work in better conditions prevalent to their mindsets to ensure proper creativity. (The fact that the people are more comfortable probably never even entered into the equation, but might have, as that would drive up sick days.).