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LostProxy
Now I'm a whipper snapper (early 90's kid) compared to most of the people around and when I started playing table top it was late 3.5 early 4E DnD. Got into Shadowrun not long after that and ever since I did I've seen people complaining about some lost complexity. One thing that I see come up time and time again is about how the decks would grow with the hacker or something along those lines. How the decks separated the wage slave computer nerds from real matrix masters. Could someone please explain this to me? I do not have the time to read through an entire edition to find the answer to one question.
LostProxy
Now I'm a whipper snapper (early 90's kid) compared to most of the people around and when I started playing table top it was late 3.5 early 4E DnD. Got into Shadowrun not long after that and ever since I did I've seen people complaining about some lost complexity. One thing that I see come up time and time again is about how the decks would grow with the hacker or something along those lines. How the decks separated the wage slave computer nerds from real matrix masters. Could someone please explain this to me? I do not have the time to read through an entire edition to find the answer to one question.
Seerow
I did play 3e and I don't get what the love for the old decks was either. I can understand to some degree wanting to be able to increase your hardware as you got better, but the exact mechanics used were pretty awful.
Yerameyahu
It's just nostalgia. Decks were hugely expensive, so only 'real hackers' had them. Deckers.
ggodo
It's the same thing with the computer tech buffs nowadays. You know, the guys who can run three copies of Crysis on Super High.
phlapjack77
Probably some of the nostalgia came from all of those who grew up reading the William Gibson books, with the Ono-Sendai decks and all that stuff
CanRay
Ask Bull. wink.gif
LostProxy
That's too bad :/ I was hoping to reverse engineer some mechanics to give some extra substance to the hackers. I like the idea of elite machines capable of more then what your comlink can chug out. While I love the simplicity (ok...most of it is decently simple) sometimes I want something to separate me more from the script kiddie then a handful of dice.
LostProxy
QUOTE (CanRay @ Sep 20 2011, 09:05 PM) *
Ask Bull. wink.gif


I see what you did there.
Medicineman
I like the idea of elite machines capable of more then what your comlink can chug out.
there are elite Comlinks like these in WAR!
If You really like the Idea ,use these (and if You want to "Fluff it Out" buy the Fairlight Excalibur Hardcase Deck(50 ¥) and Stuff it out with said Elite Comlink)
or You use a Nexus (from Unwired)

with an elite Dance
Medicineman
Fatum
>needs to read a single section of a single rulebook
>complains how he doesn't have time to read through the entire edition

Basically, your question contains the answer already. Since you could update and customize the decks, it was pretty clear who's a pro decker and who's a green noob.
Not that you can't upgrade commlinks, though - but you know, the grass is always greener and the sky more blue in the previous edition.
LurkerOutThere
I believe on the the whole the decks aren't missed, some people just have a deep seated need to advance their moral outrage over thsoe who got here after them based on anything. There were certain fiddly bits lost with the hacking change too, but the trade offs are well worth it if I can have hacking involved int eh game without sending everyone else on a food run while he does his thing. Honestly if i had my ways i'd make things even more streamlined.
Fortinbras
Rule #1 of Shadowrun: The Decker Always Dies!

At least in 2nd Edition it was.
Bigity
'Decking' and the associated hardware is just cooler than 'hackers' running around with a glorified smartphone.

I still think plugging a jack into your head should give a bonus over trodes.

Of course, these statements are personal opinion.

As for decks growing with the character, it was kind of like a mage working towards some kick ass foci, when you finally got that MPCP 8 deck, you felt like you were the bee's knees, etc.

As a hacker, you pretty much start with a max rating commlink, unless you get into the War! stuff which seems to amplify faults in the system anyway.


As for Lurker, I think he might be the one with some deep seated issues wink.gif
Yerameyahu
The thing is, everyone starts at or near the top in SR4, except for Deltaware. Especially with 'Restricted Gear' (what a mess). Mages and TMs are least have to initiate… unless you're using unchecked Karmagen.
suoq
Note: I went from SR1 to SR4.

What has consistently annoyed me about SR4 is that it's based on the time period it was written while claiming to be an extension of the games before it.

Now that we have androids and iPhones, Shadowrun suddenly has androids and iPhones. As 3d printers become common in the real world, I suspect the next version of shadowrun will have 3d "make your own gear" technology embedded in the system, not because that's the direction the Shadowrun world is going but because it's the direction our world is going. I'm also betting on more changes to AR as the writers get used to RL Augmented reality, where what displays depends on your software more than their data (why look at just what their commlink says about someone when you can instead look at what public databases say about someone, especially if you have access to a facial recognition database to add more data references?)

I don't miss the decks, but I find it sad that SR4 went to tiny commlinks just because, at this point in time, we went to tiny commlinks. It could have gone to wearable computing and fingertip sensors and retinal scanners (something like Snow Crash or Minority Report) but it just became the same history with the present day wrapped around it, evolving from now instead of from the Shadowrun future.
KarmaInferno
I think that ship sailed in 2nd edition, suoq, when they started updating the 'future history' timeline with events that had happened between editions.

I think decks are cooler simply because they are more cyberpunk than commlinks.


-k
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
For Elite, use a Nexus. They are a bit less portable than a Milspec Comlink, but can be much more "powerful". smile.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Sep 21 2011, 06:59 AM) *
The thing is, everyone starts at or near the top in SR4, except for Deltaware. Especially with 'Restricted Gear' (what a mess). Mages and TMs are least have to initiate… unless you're using unchecked Karmagen.


You could build a Deck in 2nd/3rd that was better than the Fairlight Excaliber, and for about 1/4 of the cost. So, Deckers, in my experience, could start with the best they could get, right out of the gate, then as well. There is really no difference.
Bigity
Uh, since you couldn't build custom decks during chargen I'm not sure how that would have worked. You could build one for cheaper than off-the-shelf, but it took ages of time.
Medicineman
Could one of the Mods merge these 2 Threads please ?
or are they seperate on purpose ?

with a merging Dance
Medicineman
Seerow
QUOTE
As 3d printers become common in the real world, I suspect the next version of shadowrun will have 3d "make your own gear" technology embedded in the system, not because that's the direction the Shadowrun world is going but because it's the direction our world is going.


Correct me if I'm wrong but is this not exactly what the desktop forges are?
Yerameyahu
See, what bothers *me* is when a future/sci-fi setting has cruddier tech than I do today. Thank god SR4 addressed this.
Bigity
Sure, but is that something you want to change in a game nearly 20 years into it's history? You can, and it's fine, but some people liked the established lore, with all it's glorious faults and head-scratchers.

In any case, for some people, decks are always going to be cooler than commlinks. No big deal.
Cheops
Incoming IMO and YMMV:

Cyberdecks, being cruder than what we have in real life, helps me immerse myself more in a dark world of dystopian failure and angst. One of the things that hooked me (and inspired my first SR character) was the 3e picture of the female decker jacked into her deck while hiding in a dumpster. Something about it seemed so raw and cool at the time.

Cyberdecks could NOT be better than the Farlight Calibur at character creation unless your GM was allowing you to have construction time at the start of the game. This was generally only done for very high powered games because it allowed the rigger, decker, and mage to all build their doom machines ahead of time and release them on the world from Mission 1.

This was part of the fun of cyberdecks. You had three options for getting up to the bleeding edge: buy it, build it, or steal it. All three had interesting and exciting character building to it. Now I spend my 2.2-8 BP and I'll never have anything better. There was also a lot more character to the decks themselves. Now you have 4 stats (RFSS) that affect how your commlink works -- back then there were also 4 stats (BEMS). However, MPCP acted as a cap on programs and stats (you got MPCP*2 for stats none could be higher than MPCP) and you could vary within that. So you could have your deck for sleazing (high M = Masking which was half your Detection Difficulty) and a deck you whipped out for when you wanted to kick ass and take names (high B = Bod). There was also the difference between I/O rates and active versus storage memory. Compare that to now where you start with 6/6/6/6 and the one deck allows you to be a cyber-troll as well as a cyber-ninja -- sure you have versatility but also boredom because you do it all. That was one of the cool parts of doing an all decker party or having decker contacts as a decker: if your specialty was Sleazing then you could team up with your buddy who's a specialist in Combat Decking. Also it made it freaking frightening if you fragged up as a sleazer and had to fight or if you were combat and had to fight through a red chokepoint (plus cybercombat actually had interesting options back then too other than "I hit him with my cyber-sword"). I still remember one or two characters who skimped on active memory and I/O to save money for programs who drekked themselves when they had to switch from one role to another -- "Drek, I evade again! Hurry up and load you stupid Attack program!"

Now this is all just talking about the deck -- programs throw different kinks into this but that's for a different thread.
LurkerOutThere
Here's why deckers are now and will always be stupid.

A janitor is not a broomer.

A mechanic is not a wrencher.

A street sam is not a gunner or a blader.

A mage is not a speller.

You have a profession that is typified and defined not by what they use but what they do, of course they were never taken seriously as an archietype, you take a guy and make him about his gear.

The trodes vs jacks debate is completely separate from that shift.
LurkerOutThere
By the way, decks were introduced because the guys writing at the time were copying from Gibson, who like him or hate him wrote all of his stuff while coked out fo his mind and knew nada about actual computers other then they were big and bulky and sat on a desk or in huge complexes., but he'd stole the concept of virtual reality form someone. else and ran with it. I know there were people as early as 82 who alreayd knew that the portability and processing power of computers was going to increase exponentially, they just knew that certain hurdles needed to be crossed.
Cheops
Meh, if I wanted reality I'd be taking Computer Forensics with my buddy. I play Shadowrun. If I'm already taking the leap that less than 1% of the population conquered the continent or that FUCKING MAGIC is real then it isn't really that far a leap to cyberdecks.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Bigity @ Sep 21 2011, 07:15 AM) *
Uh, since you couldn't build custom decks during chargen I'm not sure how that would have worked. You could build one for cheaper than off-the-shelf, but it took ages of time.


Much like programming in 4th Edition, Building a Deck could be reduced to no real time if you were skilled enough. And some tables I used to play at allowed the building in Chargen, if you had those skills. I only ever played One Decker in previous editions (built probably a dozen or so), because of the time it took to play them. I like them, no doubt, they were just tedious.
Seerow
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Sep 21 2011, 04:24 PM) *
Much like programming in 4th Edition, Building a Deck could be reduced to no real time if you were skilled enough. And some tables I used to play at allowed the building in Chargen, if you had those skills. I only ever played One Decker in previous editions (built probably a dozen or so), because of the time it took to play them. I like them, no doubt, they were just tedious.


Programming in 4e can be reduced to no time? Isn't the time interval for that like 1-3 months? Even with a programming nexus, and rushing the job, you're looking at 1 month intervals for system/firewall, and week intervals for everything else (at least your hacking/common use programs. If you want a tacsoft, IC, or Autosofts programmed by yourself, then it's a 1.5 month intervals). If you're looking for rating 6 programs, that's threshold 12 and even the best coder is going to take 2 intervals to manage it... so you're looking at like 4 months for your OS, 4 months for your common use programs, and 8 months for your hacking programs, well over a year to code a full software suite, even while rushing the job in an expensive programming environment. Doing things normally, you're looking at almost 5 years. By the time you finish your code, it's already outdated and degrading (since all programs degrade unless someone is writing patches for it, but since you made the program you have to patch it yourself...) so keeping those programs all up to date is eating up more of your time and slowing down future programming....

Yeah, programming in SR4 sucks. I find it hard to believe that building a deck was anywhere near that bad
Yerameyahu
LurkerOutThere, you're just being silly there. smile.gif A gunner is a thing. A swordsman is a thing; spearman, axeman, bowman. A guitarist. Riggers use control rig. And so on.

Only by cheating, Seerow, but yes. ;D
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Sep 21 2011, 08:43 AM) *
LurkerOutThere, you're just being silly there. smile.gif A gunner is a thing. A swordsman is a thing; spearman, axeman, bowman. A guitarist. Riggers use control rig. And so on.

Only by cheating, Seerow, but yes. ;D


No Cheating involved at all... Just use the rules.

Rushing the Job Halves the Time Interval.
A Programming Environment Halves the Time Interval.
Edge Expenditure can (optionally) Halve the Time Interval.

So, you can Divide any Programing times by 8. Assuming you want to take the risk of having errors in your Programming (1's and 2's count towards Glitches thanks to Russhing the job). Or don't rush the job and Divide Programming times by 4.

I believe that Yerameyahu is referring to the Use of a Spirit to use Guard on the Programmer (Can't remember of the top of my Head if a Sprite can provide the same benefit) while he is programming, to eliminate the risk of a Glitch. And though this is shameless powergaming, it is allowable by the rules. smile.gif
Yerameyahu
You can cheat *using* the rules. nyahnyah.gif
Seerow
Okay I wasn't aware of the option for edge to halve the interval, which still makes it take a full 6 months to program your own set of programs, and still takes about 2 months to program any IC you want. At least with all of that you can generally manage doing program options in a few days, rather than a month, but still the point remains that programming has the longest time intervals of any test that I'm aware of, and the only thing that uniquely affects it is the programming environment.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Sep 21 2011, 08:57 AM) *
You can cheat *using* the rules. nyahnyah.gif


I guess... Neraph does it often enough. smile.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Seerow @ Sep 21 2011, 09:00 AM) *
Okay I wasn't aware of the option for edge to halve the interval, which still makes it take a full 6 months to program your own set of programs, and still takes about 2 months to program any IC you want. At least with all of that you can generally manage doing program options in a few days, rather than a month, but still the point remains that programming has the longest time intervals of any test that I'm aware of, and the only thing that uniquely affects it is the programming environment.


Does take time, but nothing insurmountable at that point. Patching programs is not all that difficult either, using those options, Since all you need is 1-3 net Hits, and you will get that in a Single roll, most likely. Of course, the easiest way to track that is to just roll the "cost" into your lifestyle and move along, but *shrug*. Or just get a Sleep Regulator to have more hours in the day, then break down the intervals into Hours (40 Hours/Week) and move along.
Bigity
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Sep 21 2011, 10:06 AM) *
Here's why deckers are now and will always be stupid.

A janitor is not a broomer.

A mechanic is not a wrencher.

A street sam is not a gunner or a blader.

A mage is not a speller.

You have a profession that is typified and defined not by what they use but what they do, of course they were never taken seriously as an archietype, you take a guy and make him about his gear.

The trodes vs jacks debate is completely separate from that shift.


Yet a truck driver is a trucker.

A rifleman is a rifleman.

A cameraman is a cameraman.

And so on, we can go on and on showing how certain jobs are named after the main tools of said job, or how a job isn't named after the main tools. This proves nothing either way.

Like every other archetype isn't about their gear or the Awakened equivalent. Maybe a straight face isn't, but only maybe.

Decking was a term coined from the popular cyberpunk genre when Shadowrun was created, street samurai taken from the rampant Japanese culture love/hate thing going on back then in the US.
suoq
I thought he was being ironic since, after all, a programmer is a person who uses programs to write programs, getting you on both sides of the task.

(Note that mechanic is derived from machines, although, oddly enough, janitor comes from "arched passage"*)

*http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=janitor
hermit
QUOTE
One thing that I see come up time and time again is about how the decks would grow with the hacker or something along those lines. How the decks separated the wage slave computer nerds from real matrix masters. Could someone please explain this to me? I do not have the time to read through an entire edition to find the answer to one question.


In effect, in editions 1 through 3, you had two kinds of Matrix access devices: tortoises and decks. A Tortoise is a low-end, low-stat devide that will not let you do hot sim, true hacking programs, and leaves a data trail a mile wide. think of it as a standard commlink. A deck is a modded tortoise that can do hot sim (according to the previous Matrix books, that is the one difference to tell tortoises from decks) and that can run all kinds of programs and have high-end stats. Think of it as a military commlink that comes with built-in hot sim. Of course, there were crap decks that would "only" equal about a mid-level Core Book commlink, and you could buy the tortoise from hell and slug through the Matrix real fast leaving behind an immense data trail, but generally, that's it.

Now, decks and tortoises were one-of-a-kind devices, more or less. You had to generate your own CPUs for them (which then hardcoded the OS), though you could buy prepacked memory and whatnot as add-on parts. Think of that as an Apple II type device (or any Apple computer except for the PowerPC, including the iPhone, really). A Commlink is more like a Windows/Linux PC - all parts are interchangable and whatnot, though complete packages are sold.

For a Deck, I'd cluster commlinks of appropriate quality (4 through 8 ) and give it a Firewall between 6 and 10. That should be enough to scare the hell out of uppity scripkiddies and most annoying Technos.
Method
Merged.
hermit
QUOTE
I know there were people as early as 82 who alreayd knew that the portability and processing power of computers was going to increase exponentially, they just knew that certain hurdles needed to be crossed.

But you're not going to share, are you? wink.gif
Infornography
Shadowrun 4 is not as wireless as you might think. Somewhere in the core rules it is even mentioned that wireless connections are still not as common as wired ones, simply because the latter are more secure.

And re-introducing decks isn't that big of an issue either. Just limit actual commlinks and think of raw commlinks as decks.
I'd restrict Matrix-IPs for example (like a maximum of 2 or 3 for commlinks and the total of 5 for decks) and the capability regarding use of utilities.


What I kinda disliked about 3rd edition deckers is that it's kinda hard (though certainly not impossible) to make them decent at hacking and still useful in other fields. And it's kind of disappointing to have 70% of what defines your character to be reduced to a mere gimmick should your group happen to mostly neglect the matrix stuff.

Anyway decks and programs were absurdly expensive (because of shadowrun's pointless balancing attempts) and the matrix was way too complex.
I think the 4th edition matrix is a great step to a better and faster matrix experience though it could surely use some more streamlining here and a little more flavour there.
tete
I don't miss the decks as much as I miss the Mage not being a good decker without some sacrifice.
Ascalaphus
I don't have actual nostalgia, since I started in SR4 and began reading backwards from there. But I'm just offended by the idea that if a smartphone hacktoy has some Stat X, that I can't get something laptop-sized with Stat > X.

Yeah, yeah, you can do some of that with Clustering, but that's a bit of a pity fuck.
Seerow
QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Sep 21 2011, 11:34 PM) *
I don't have actual nostalgia, since I started in SR4 and began reading backwards from there. But I'm just offended by the idea that if a smartphone hacktoy has some Stat X, that I can't get something laptop-sized with Stat > X.

Yeah, yeah, you can do some of that with Clustering, but that's a bit of a pity fuck.


Eh, it makes sense to me. Technology has progressed to the point where bigger is not necessarily better, and processing power doesn't get increased from a direct increase in size.

I can understand the want for a more expensive/better cpu option for a hacker, but I wouldn't necessarily want it to be something that's very clunky and obvious to lug around. That sort of thing just screams "I'm a hacker!" in a game where that's not the sort of thing you want to broadcast. Also if high grade 'links are made more expensive I either money cap needs to be raised/removed, or programs need to be made FAR cheaper, or both.
Yerameyahu
Not Clustering, Nexi. A low-end nexus would give you additional Processor Limit, though not better Matrix Attributes. But neither will Clustering.
LostProxy
QUOTE (Medicineman @ Sep 21 2011, 06:23 AM) *
Could one of the Mods merge these 2 Threads please ?
or are they seperate on purpose ?

with a merging Dance
Medicineman


I have no idea how it happened. I posted it and suddenly it split when I refreshed the page.
Stahlseele
Know why the Combat Decker was an Ork in SR3?
Because Hardening wasn't only internal, but also available for the casing.
Making it into a Shild with which you could bash in heads too!
Try and do that with one of them comlinks todays "hackers" use . .
CanRay
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Sep 21 2011, 06:09 PM) *
Know why the Combat Decker was an Ork in SR3?
Because Hardening wasn't only internal, but also available for the casing.
Making it into a Shild with which you could bash in heads too!
Try and do that with one of them comlinks todays "hackers" use . .
Ow. Stop it. You're annoying me. Really. Stop. Now! I have an Uzi.
Stahlseele
QUOTE (CanRay @ Sep 22 2011, 01:16 AM) *
Ow. Stop it. You're annoying me. Really. Stop. Now! I have an Uzi.

So?
What are you going to do with that?
If you throw it now, you will get hit as well!
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