Run payouts, Yes, I'm diving down this rabbit hole again. Options

[imperialus]

Ok... one of the biggest challenges that Shadowrun GM's seem to come across is creating a Nuyen Karma balance when awarding PC's. We typically see topics on it every couple of weeks here. Award too much Nuyen and Street Sams get the short stick, too much cash and you'll see PC's blowing money on high lifestyles, because unless you are a rigger or a street sam you've got nothing worthwhile to spend your cash on...

Not only that but big run payouts really limits who you can offer jobs from. If the PC's won't get out of bed for less than 20K each, then who the heck can afford to hire them? You're pretty much stuck with offering jobs from Corps and Organized Crime syndicates. Unless you totally handwave the funds that other people might have available there is zero grey area for the PC's to get hired by a squatter community being menaced by gangs, or a down on his luck reporter who needs paydata for a big scoop, or anything like that... Why would the PC's even do a run as a favor for a friend if it meant they were getting paid peanuts? Hand-waving it gets pretty ridiculous too. I remember the old adventure Dark Angel where the PC's were offered one million nuyen by Kat, DA's girlfriend... Seriously, the guy hadn't even released an album yet... How the heck was the girlfriend of a supposedly struggling rock start supposed to scrape that kind of money together?

Now I've mentioned on here several times in the past that the Nuyen Karma ratio that I've found works well is approximately 5000 nuyen for every karma. This means that by the time a mage has accumulated 20ish karma for an initiation, the Street Sam has about 100K to upgrade his ware with. For a long time I sort of left the ratio at this and was happy with it... it worked... sort of, but I ran into the second problem of there being too much cash floating around. I wanted my PC's to scrimp and save... worry about how they are going to make rent on next months low lifestyle, remind them that they are the underclass, subhuman trash, dreaming of the big score that could set them free and let them live the high life on some nice tropical island somewhere... It just didn't jive with the fact that after 4 or 5 runs their bank accounts would be sitting and 80,000+.

At any rate, now that you've heard me bitching I'd like to toss out my idea for a solution. I call it the shadowbank (because hey it's Shadowrun we can add Shadow to anything and it sounds cool). Basically the shadowbank exists as a purely metagame mechanic. The characters have no knowledge of it, and the players only have a rough idea of its balance. I track it for each PC behind the screen. Now for each 1000 nuyen that the PC earns they only get to see approximately 100 nuyen of it. The remainder goes in the shadowbank. After the shadowbank has reached a considerable balance, the player can request big ticket items from it, and I will find a way to give them the opportunity to get their hands on the item for free/cheap. Want a move by wire system? Well maybe that Yakuza Oyuban you just risked your life to save is grateful enough, that he is willing to fly you to Chiba all expenses paid and get you wired up in one of the best black-market cyber-clinics on the planet... Want a slick new ride? Hey that Mafia hitman you just assassinated had a Westwind parked out back, and the keys are in his pocket. Sure you'll need to scrub it for RFID tags and the like but that's a small price to pay. It also makes the cool toys that the PC's get their hands on have some narrative weight. That weapon foci is no longer just some piece of gear your physad picked out of the book. He took it from the cold dead hands of the the Yakuza ninja that he killed highlander style in a duel on a warehouse roof...

This also keeps the runners poor... If a run that would have used to have have paid them 20K now pays them 2000 suddenly financial management becomes a bigger issue. Burning through clips of EX explosive ammo or flinging grenades left and right will start having a significant impact on their bottom line. It lets you keep the game at a 'street' level without causing major issues balance wise.

By fiddling with the ratio you can even still reward players financially for jobs that might pay very little, or nothing at all. Maybe they would be willing to help out the squatters being attacked by ghouls in exchange for a hot meal and a place they can use as a bolthole in the future if they know that their shadowbank balance will still go up. Maybe the won't be quite so irate when the Yak Oyuban tells them "Do this gratis or I put a price on your head!" if they know they are still going to get something out of the deal.

You can even fiddle with it further and customize the ratio to each character. Spellslingers in Shadowrun are often perceived within the game world as being more 'valuable' than other archtypes. It comes up in the fluff all the time. Mages are also less likely to need to draw on the Shadowbank so it is entirely possible to up the mages cash to shadowbank ratio to 200/1000 to represent the fact that they command a higher price than a street sam.

[Paul]

I set up what I see as realistic operating budgets for employers, and I also sometimes have alternate payment schedules set up. (So an employer who works in automotive business might offer to let the players get work done, upgrades etc...where as a company that produces cybernetics will offer a higher payment if the players will spend that payment on their companies wares.) I also come after the P's for their money-contact upkeep, equipment and weapon upkeep and replacement, lifestyle costs, fixing vehicles. I tend to be a little low on the karma side of things, so I have to remember that sometimes they earned it.

I also think the pacing can be affected by how often you play. A once a week game is less frantic than a once a month game.

[Seriously Mike]

I set up what I see as realistic operating budgets for employers, and I also sometimes have alternate payment schedules set up. (So an employer who works in automotive business might offer to let the players get work done, upgrades etc...where as a company that produces cybernetics will offer a higher payment if the players will spend that payment on their companies wares.)

That's a simple and very good idea, mentioned in the fluff a good couple of times. Gear, favors, discounts, coupons - useful stuff that isn't cold hard cash.

[imperialus]

I set up what I see as realistic operating budgets for employers, and I also sometimes have alternate payment schedules set up. (So an employer who works in automotive business might offer to let the players get work done, upgrades etc...where as a company that produces cybernetics will offer a higher payment if the players will spend that payment on their companies wares.) I also come after the P's for their money-contact upkeep, equipment and weapon upkeep and replacement, lifestyle costs, fixing vehicles. I tend to be a little low on the karma side of things, so I have to remember that sometimes they earned it.

I also think the pacing can be affected by how often you play. A once a week game is less frantic than a once a month game.

That doesn't break the original problem though. Why would a mage or hacker risk his skin doing a run for a cybernetics corp if the end result of it is that the Street Sam gets to upgrade his ware? What does he care if the Sam gets an extra initiative pass? Is it just because he likes the guy?

Plus then any time someone wants/needs a big ticket item you need to customize a run around them. This can play hell in a campaign where there is a single narrative that you want to follow. You'll spend more time doing 'sidequests' so that the rigger can get a pimped out bull dog, the street sam can get a move by wire system, the mage can get his power foci, ect, ect, ect. than you will focusing on the larger plot.

Not only that but then the rewarding of big ticket items can end up being somewhat arbitrary. If the PC's have an actual budget operating behind the scenes it makes it easier to ensure that you aren't inadvertently overcompensating on character over another.

As for the incidental expenses, contact upkeep, lifestyle, weapon repairs, ammo ect. Lowering the 'real cash' payouts makes tracking that more important. A player can no longer just assume he has enough cash on hand to buy a crate of grenades whenever he feels like it. It might genuinely come down to choosing between making this months rent, or fixing the van after it got shot up in the last run. It makes things like technical skills a lot more important too. If the rigger can fix the van himself then it's going to be a lot cheaper than going through his mechanic buddy. He might still need to pay for the parts, and to rent space in a garage but at least the labour costs are taken care of.

The Shadowbank system can work well with alternative payment methods too. If you want to give the street sam something extra for that run for the cybernetics corp then he can just cash in some of his shadowbank money to do so.

One side effect of this is that it can create a downward push on the entire shadow economy and the end result is that Nuyen becomes significantly more valuable especially on the service end of things. Sure the Street Sam might need to pay to have the cyberarm he stole off of a Renraku assembly line installed, but the back alley chop doc he goes to could charge him a more reasonable amount for it. Heck if the Sam is willing to let the Doc keep his old cyberarm he might even do it for free since he can turn around and make a profit selling the same arm to some up and coming gangbanger. Once big ticket items hit the street, the price of them would inevitably have to go down since gutter trash simply couldn't afford to pay more than a pittance for them, and the black market dealers would have to sell them to someone...

[Loch]

In the Caribbean League game I'm in currently, the GM offers us a nice spread of offers every time we're looking for a paycheck. Printed out on a little sheet with a basic description of the job and how much the Johnson is willing to pay (e.g., Data Steal: Evo Research, (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 100,000). The only problem I've noticed with this setup is that our first run of the campaign (which the GM assures us was supposed to be a "big job") paid pretty well, about (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 85,000 for a team of five. Most of the jobs now being offered pay far less than that, so we've only been going after the high-paying gigs. The party mysad is starting to bitch about not getting enough karma. I think it's just that the expectations of the players were perhaps set a little too high after the first run, so we've only been taking jobs that pay at least as much, if not more than, the first job we did. Mind you, I'd be all up for a job that didn't pay as well if it gave me the opportunity to build up my rep with important people, make new contacts and the like.

[Paul]

That doesn't break the original problem though. Why would a mage or hacker risk his skin doing a run for a cybernetics corp if the end result of it is that the Street Sam gets to upgrade his ware?

Sometimes they don't. Sometimes they won't. Not every job has this option. Hell, in my game not every job has a payday. Some games are just consequences, fall out from stuff that's built up, other times it's random or semi-random events.

What does he care if the Sam gets an extra initiative pass? Is it just because he likes the guy?

It could be that simple, or vastly more complicated. There is no hard and fast rule here.

Plus then any time someone wants/needs a big ticket item you need to customize a run around them.

Yeah. This can happen, depending on what we, as a group want.

This can play hell in a campaign where there is a single narrative that you want to follow. You'll spend more time doing 'sidequests' so that the rigger can get a pimped out bull dog, the street sam can get a move by wire system, the mage can get his power foci, ect, ect, ect. than you will focusing on the larger plot.

Well that's where I, as the GM, step in. if it's not fun or it's detracting we can make adjustments. We're not a railroad track man.

Not only that but then the rewarding of big ticket items can end up being somewhat arbitrary.

Yup. That's why it's a judgment call. Not every game can have this sort of payday. Not every game should.

If the PC's have an actual budget operating behind the scenes it makes it easier to ensure that you aren't inadvertently overcompensating on character over another.

This may stick in your craw, but not every character should get paid the same. I let my players do the division. Generally speaking they've been mature enough to do this in what I see as equitable. But yeah sometimes the Mage needs something or deserves something more than the Technomancer.

As for the incidental expenses, contact upkeep, lifestyle, weapon repairs, ammo ect. Lowering the 'real cash' payouts makes tracking that more important. A player can no longer just assume he has enough cash on hand to buy a crate of grenades whenever he feels like it.

Good. That means I'm doing it right.

It might genuinely come down to choosing between making this months rent, or fixing the van after it got shot up in the last run.

Ain't life grand?

It makes things like technical skills a lot more important too. If the rigger can fix the van himself then it's going to be a lot cheaper than going through his mechanic buddy. He might still need to pay for the parts, and to rent space in a garage but at least the labour costs are taken care of.

Sure makes contacts a lot more than just a set of numbers doesn't it?

One side effect of this is that it can create a downward push on the entire shadow economy and the end result is that Nuyen becomes significantly more valuable especially on the service end of things. Sure the Street Sam might need to pay to have the cyberarm he stole off of a Renraku assembly line installed, but the back alley chop doc he goes to could charge him a more reasonable amount for it. Heck if the Sam is willing to let the Doc keep his old cyberarm he might even do it for free since he can turn around and make a profit selling the same arm to some up and coming gangbanger. Once big ticket items hit the street, the price of them would inevitably have to go down since gutter trash simply couldn't afford to pay more than a pittance for them, and the black market dealers would have to sell them to someone...

It can work this way. The characters in my game aren't wealthy, independent operatives with top notch training. They're people who have no other choice. Most often desperate, and living in disparate conditions. They take jobs doing illegal things to make their lot in life better. Some are seriously flawed-adrenaline junkies, mentally ill, suffering from PTSD, looking to escape the boundaries of normal society. I think adding the occasional alternative payment, nd keeping track of upkeep helps add some grit to our world. a

And so far, since my players show up on a regular basis and say they have fun, I must be doing it right!

[Paul]

That's a simple and very good idea, mentioned in the fluff a good couple of times. Gear, favors, discounts, coupons - useful stuff that isn't cold hard cash.

It can change the dynamics at time. Once the players took payment in consumer items and on their own planned a run to cause a market short fall thereby driving up the price they could sell their loot for. The players planned their own run, one of the more fun games I've ever run.

[Ascalaphus]

Isn't the seed of the problem, expecting elite secret operatives to continually struggle to meet the rent?

Somebody wrote a good and proper rant on it once, which impressed me, but it boils down to this: from stories like Neuromancer we get the idea of shadowrunners as some sort of "starving artist" types, but the protagonists of Neuromancers were actually unusual; Case was a down on his luck burnt out hacker with serious substance abuse issues. The other two novels in that series feature significantly more well-off protagonists.

---

Anyway, on karma/nuyen balance. I think this is just going to continue to be a problem, as long as two basic "rules" hold:
1) There just isn't all that much "crunchy power" for sale for Awakened characters. After a while, you run out of ways to turn nuyen into power the way riggers and sams do.
2) The party splits the money evenly among all members.

You could mess with either of those rules. For example:
1) There's an initiatory society, but they have expensive membership dues. Part of the money goes to charity, and part to building fancy volcano lairs. Basically, this is a scheme for turning nuyen into a karma discount on Initiation.
1) There is a market for foci and magical gewgaws with impressive powers, that will challenge even the mage's finances.
1) Leave a crumb trail to a delta clinic for the mage; the few implants he does have, he might want to upgrade.
1) Entice the mage player (through his Mentor, perhaps) to pour some of his money into the community, financing projects in line with his tradition's beliefs. A shaman might finance ecological activism, for example. This could yield the character some Contacts and Street Cred now and then.
1) Introduce enemies the wizard's player will hate - hate so much that he wants to use his leftover money to harass them, by hiring NPC runners for example.

2) Suggest that part of a run's payout is reserved for repairs to drones and replenishing ammo. Drones are pretty expensive, and if you start using exotic heavy weapons, so is ammo. Obviously, this will be up to the players to agree on, but you could make a good case for it OOC.

[Paul]

Isn't the seed of the problem, expecting elite secret operatives to continually struggle to meet the rent?

It can be. It does make the assumption that the PC's are elite. I don't think at every table in every game this is true. In some games, absolutely it is. But yeah, this is why I can't see free lance operatives surviving independently for very long. Eventually you make the wrong people nervous-either they think you'll tell, or that you're just too dangerous to be used against them. So they'll try to take you out.

The world of a "shadow" asset is a dangerous, and likely short one.

[Warlordtheft]

Try running a barter economy in the LA barrens (aka Waterworld)..and then figuring out what the "pay" should be. Granted they don't get a johnson (normally), and it is DIY crime while trying to support a barrens community.

Case in point, they are trying to off load through a smuggle contact the 30 jet ski's they've aquired from the Burning Angels. This is about 86,000 Nuyen's worth of stuff. They plan to use the money to aquire some sustaining Foci for one of the mages.

Karma for this once a month campaign is about 10. This allows everyone to upgrade some thing or get new skills evey month should they choose to do so.


BTW-Mages are much more likely to leave a corp due to philisophical/personality differences. Imagine a business meeting with someone who'e mentor spirit is Loki. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[imperialus]

Isn't the seed of the problem, expecting elite secret operatives to continually struggle to meet the rent?

Somebody wrote a good and proper rant on it once, which impressed me, but it boils down to this: from stories like Neuromancer we get the idea of shadowrunners as some sort of "starving artist" types, but the protagonists of Neuromancers were actually unusual; Case was a down on his luck burnt out hacker with serious substance abuse issues. The other two novels in that series feature significantly more well-off protagonists.

And that works great if that's the style of campaign you want to run, but I'd counter your Gibson argument by pointing out a few others. Hero Protagonist in Snowcrash lived in a shipping container. The protagonist from 2XS was a down on his luck PI. Avery Cates in the Electric Church started out the first novel he was in wondering if he could afford to shoot the guy he had been hired to assasinate, or if it would be better to use his knives.

Even look at the archtypes from the core book. The troll bouncer is an elite operative? The Orc Gangbanger? The Street Shaman? Those don't exactly scream "high lifestyle" to me.

@Paul: I think you and I might be talking past each other a bit. At the end of the day it looks like we have a fairly similar system, I've just suggested codifying mine while yours is more reliant on GM fiat (and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that). For me personally I've run into enough balance problems with games I've run over the years that I like the idea of having a system to fall back on.

The impression I get from what you've described (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that your players will ask for assorted gee-gaws and other high ticket items and then you figure out a way to work them into the campaign at some point. At the end of the day, the way I see the Shadowbank operating is no differently. It just provides me with a mechanic that I can use to keep the players roughly on pace with each other. It also lets the players know that even if a run may not benefit them directly, they can still get some material benefit from it and ensures that they don't get forgotten about. Like your system not every run will have a big payday for every PC. It depends on when, and how they want to cash in their shadowbank money.

Also, I like the idea that different characters can get paid more or less than each other. That's why I think it's a good idea that the shadowbank contributions can be adjusted for different PC's. Remember, the Shadowbank is a purely metagame concept. The characters themselves have no idea it even exists, no moreso than they know how much Karma they have. As a matter of fact that's not a terrible way to think of it. It's Karma for street sams.

[CanRay]

UCAS$5 in spare change found in the Mr. Johnson's couch and a 75¥ gift certificate for Stuffer Shack.

[Wiseman]

Can't say I'd enforce a reward system/bank, since balance tends to change based on what the players spend the rewards on, and usually its only a problem because it was something I didn't expect to have so great an impact on play.

Spending a few thousand nuyen on a warehouse versus some move by wire cyberware can have grossly different implications in play. Examples: there isn't a lot of combat this session or the warehouse is a chemistry shop

I set the rewards for nuyen based on the job they're doing, and the karma based on mission difficulty and roleplaying.

Everything else get's balanced at the table. My only concerns are that no one steals all the spotlight, no one is left out, everyone has fun, and I get to watch them squirm when I start throwing dice and making dubious "hmmmm" sounds.

Lifestyles and bank accounts are tied to Fake SIN's, and those things can be burned. So it's really just cyberware and magicians that can be trouble. Cyberware is capped by essence though, and magicians will never have enough karma.

I like the idea though! Probably too much bookkeeping to be worth it to me.

[Paul]

@Paul: I think you and I might be talking past each other a bit.

A little, yeah. Sorry. Heh.

I've just suggested codifying mine while yours is more reliant on GM fiat (and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that).

It's equal parts GM Fat and Committee decision, and individual player desire. At various times we've agreed some things should be played out, or I've had player on their own decide they don't need whatever payment is offered. I'm pretty lucky my players are great guys, who's goal are a lot more broad reaching than just "Make money!"

The impression I get from what you've described (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that your players will ask for assorted gee-gaws and other high ticket items and then you figure out a way to work them into the campaign at some point.

Basically. Before we even get to that we decide if it's item that should be purchased out of game or in game. No sense in role playing going to buy dish soap refills, but maybe a Move By Wire rating 4 is a little more complicated, under the setting, and should be played out. That's where the Committee decision making process comes in.

[Stalag]

What we've found works reasonably well is to pay enough to keep the Sammy's happy and allow characters to donate money to a charity to let them gain 1 Karma per 2500 Nuyen (yes, same as KarmaGen). They still get Karma rewards for the mission, the Karma based characters can just exchange their excess cash for more.

[Udoshi]

What we've found works reasonably well is to pay enough to keep the Sammy's happy and allow characters to donate money to a charity to let them gain 1 Karma per 2500 Nuyen (yes, same as KarmaGen). They still get Karma rewards for the mission, the Karma based characters can just exchange their excess cash for more.

Our group uses this, and uses it both ways. It means that anyone can play any archetype they want, and not worry too much about their advancement.

[Seerow]

What we've found works reasonably well is to pay enough to keep the Sammy's happy and allow characters to donate money to a charity to let them gain 1 Karma per 2500 Nuyen (yes, same as KarmaGen). They still get Karma rewards for the mission, the Karma based characters can just exchange their excess cash for more.

Our group does something similar, but it's 10,000 nuyen per karma, and the amount you can buy is capped at half of what you got from your last mission reward. (So if you got 4 karma from the mission, you can buy 2 karma by donating 20,000 nuyen)

[SleepMethod]

This is a very interesting topic we're delving into in my group. At the moment we're looking at a 5000 Nuyen to 1 Karma ratio but didn't have a way to RP it, though the charity/community investment idea seems like a good one (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I also like the idea to getting items instead/as well as a payout. I'm not entirely sure how I'm going to get my grubby little hands on my rating 4 muscle toner that has availablity of 20R but i might get a contact at the end of a mission that can help, or something along those lines

[Stalag]

I also like the idea to getting items instead/as well as a payout. I'm not entirely sure how I'm going to get my grubby little hands on my rating 4 muscle toner that has availablity of 20R but i might get a contact at the end of a mission that can help, or something along those lines

A contact which could be purchased with Karma depending on how the table wants to implement it. Lots of options

[imperialus]

The problem with the Karma/Nuyen exchange (as I see it) is that apart from a very small subsection of archtypes what sort of runner would donate 20K to an orphanage leaving themselves with next to nothing? You're forced to come up with some increasingly convoluted justifications to explain why a bunch of hardened mercenaries would want to give up money that they risked their lives to acquire in order to get a warm fuzzy feeling.

It also fails to solve the Nuyen Karma imbalance. Say you give out 20,000 for the successful completion of a run that also nets the characters 4 karma. If the mages then turn around and donate their money at a 2500-1 ratio they've now earned a total of 12 karma. They're halfway to initiation... Hell if they were really gaming the quest/initiate group angle they could probably initiate already. That puts them way ahead of the power curve.

[Miri]

The problem with the Karma/Nuyen exchange (as I see it) is that apart from a very small subsection of archtypes what sort of runner would donate 20K to an orphanage leaving themselves with next to nothing? You're forced to come up with some increasingly convoluted justifications to explain why a bunch of hardened mercenaries would want to give up money that they risked their lives to acquire in order to get a warm fuzzy feeling.

It also fails to solve the Nuyen Karma imbalance. Say you give out 20,000 for the successful completion of a run that also nets the characters 4 karma. If the mages then turn around and donate their money at a 2500-1 ratio they've now earned a total of 12 karma. They're halfway to initiation... Hell if they were really gaming the quest/initiate group angle they could probably initiate already. That puts them way ahead of the power curve.

Right.. and so that Street Sam who converts that 4 Karma into another 10k and picks up a set of Wired Reflexes 2, or Alpha Grade Titanium Lacing, or with a little extra cash a Rank 2 Muscle Toner isn't getting a nice big power boost either huh?

[SleepMethod]

Right.. and so that Street Sam who converts that 4 Karma into another 10k and picks up a set of Wired Reflexes 2, or Alpha Grade Titanium Lacing, or with a little extra cash a Rank 2 Muscle Toner isn't getting a nice big power boost either huh?

Sounds like a decent system so (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Paul]

I think my players would kiss me on the face if allowed them to buy Karma. At the very least they'd not eviscerate first when the revolution comes. When they are King, we're all face first up against the wall...

[Seerow]

The biggest problem with conversion of money to karma is that the karma:money ratio was clearly designed with starting characters and regular grade gear in mind.


So while 2.5k : 1 karma is fine at the start, when the sammy is struggling to get his first cyberware implant or get his wired reflexes from rating 1 to rating 2.... look at it much further down the line.

Sammy is now upgrading to a Betaware Move By Wire 3. This costs 700,000 nuyen. At the same conversion rate being accepted at char gen, that translates into 280 karma. Does anyone legitimately think that a beta move by wire is worth THAT much karma? I doubt it. With that much karma, you can literally take your Magic 5 magician up to Initiate Grade 8, with 9 magic, with some karma to spare. Now look at what each character is getting, do those look remotely comparable? Also is any character ever likely to get anywhere near the 350 karma or nearly 1mil nuyen for this upgrade?

Gear cost simply scales far too quickly for any conversion to balance out over the long term. That was an extreme example, but even something as simple as a set of alphaware muscle augment/toner runs a character about 120k, which translates into 48 karma, which is a pretty huge fricken chunk.

The game seems to assume that as you progress, you continue getting about the same karma, while your monetary gain goes up greatly. As long as this assumption is in place, any sort of unlimited conversion at a fixed is going to cause problems.


edit: Modified numbers, multiplied cost by 5 instead of 4 for betaware.

[Paul]

Just out of curiosity how do different groups approach liberating gear adrift? Looting, as it were.