Run payouts, Yes, I'm diving down this rabbit hole again. Options

[Zaranthan]

Just out of curiosity how do different groups approach liberating gear adrift? Looting, as it were.

Don't. The main reason Ares doesn't come after you once you get their expensive MacGuffin off their property is by the time they track you down, you don't have it anymore. If you take something and keep it, you've given them financial incentive to park a sniper outside your window.

Unless it's a really awesome piece of swag that you'll never get your hands on otherwise. Then it's probably worth the risk. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Udoshi]

The biggest problem with conversion of money to karma is that the karma:money ratio was clearly designed with starting characters and regular grade gear in mind.
So while 2.5k : 1 karma is fine at the start, when the sammy is struggling to get his first cyberware implant or get his wired reflexes from rating 1 to rating 2.... look at it much further down the line.

Gear cost simply scales far too quickly for any conversion to balance out over the long term. That was an extreme example, but even something as simple as a set of alphaware muscle augment/toner runs a character about 120k, which translates into 48 karma, which is a pretty huge fricken chunk.

The more interesting houserule I've heard is to vary the exchange rate depending on the rewards for the mission.

Basically, at the end of a completed adventure, payout and karma is tallied.
The exchange rate goes both ways, and is based on the total rewards(nuyen%karma), instead of a flat value. (though I do think its based on the cash reward before its split among the group, otherwise it would throw everything off)
What this means is that the actually monetary value of karma changes from mission to mission, and it creates a new minigame for the players to enjoy. Kind of like playing the stock market, its possible to come out ahead over time.

Though it may be slightly broken, and take a lot more planning to not imbalance things.

[Dr.Rockso]

Just out of curiosity how do different groups approach liberating gear adrift? Looting, as it were.

It's not a big deal as people seem to think, IMO. Remember, if they are selling looted stuff they get very little of the original price tag. Things that were used in crimes knock down the returns and increase the risk even further.

[SleepMethod]

The biggest problem with conversion of money to karma is that the karma:money ratio was clearly designed with starting characters and regular grade gear in mind.

So while 2.5k : 1 karma is fine at the start, when the sammy is struggling to get his first cyberware implant or get his wired reflexes from rating 1 to rating 2.... look at it much further down the line.

Sammy is now upgrading to a Betaware Move By Wire 3. This costs 700,000 nuyen. At the same conversion rate being accepted at char gen, that translates into 280 karma. Does anyone legitimately think that a beta move by wire is worth THAT much karma? I doubt it. With that much karma, you can literally take your Magic 5 magician up to Initiate Grade 8, with 9 magic, with some karma to spare. Now look at what each character is getting, do those look remotely comparable? Also is any character ever likely to get anywhere near the 350 karma or nearly 1mil nuyen for this upgrade?

Gear cost simply scales far too quickly for any conversion to balance out over the long term. That was an extreme example, but even something as simple as a set of alphaware muscle augment/toner runs a character about 120k, which translates into 48 karma, which is a pretty huge fricken chunk.

The game seems to assume that as you progress, you continue getting about the same karma, while your monetary gain goes up greatly. As long as this assumption is in place, any sort of unlimited conversion at a fixed is going to cause problems.

There's no reason why when you get to those levels you can't change the karma to nuyen ratio to something more reasonable like 100,000 nuyen to 1 karma or whatever suits the table at the time. Just like a currency exchange rate changes depending on the market (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Just out of curiosity how do different groups approach liberating gear adrift? Looting, as it were.

In our group it's pretty much based on whay we could reasonably carry (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Our hacker takes every comlink he can find for no reason I can fathom lol

[enkidu]

In our group it's pretty much based on what we could reasonably carry (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Our hacker takes every comlink he can find for no reason I can fathom lol

He's told me why. Assume it's disturbing and move on. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Socinus]

Not only that but big run payouts really limits who you can offer jobs from. If the PC's won't get out of bed for less than 20K each, then who the heck can afford to hire them? You're pretty much stuck with offering jobs from Corps and Organized Crime syndicates. Unless you totally handwave the funds that other people might have available there is zero grey area for the PC's to get hired by a squatter community being menaced by gangs, or a down on his luck reporter who needs paydata for a big scoop, or anything like that... Why would the PC's even do a run as a favor for a friend if it meant they were getting paid peanuts?

Then tell them to make their own fun. Shadowrunners are criminals, they shouldnt be above going out and comitting some crimes if what the fixer is offering isnt good enough. If they dont want to do anything unless the way has been paved for them, fine, rent day and the bottom of their bank accounts WILL meet at some point. If they're too good to go knock over a truck or break into an R&D facility without someone telling them to, they need to reconsider their line of work.

At any rate, now that you've heard me bitching I'd like to toss out my idea for a solution. I call it the shadowbank (because hey it's Shadowrun we can add Shadow to anything and it sounds cool). Basically the shadowbank exists as a purely metagame mechanic. The characters have no knowledge of it, and the players only have a rough idea of its balance. I track it for each PC behind the screen. Now for each 1000 nuyen that the PC earns they only get to see approximately 100 nuyen of it. The remainder goes in the shadowbank. After the shadowbank has reached a considerable balance, the player can request big ticket items from it, and I will find a way to give them the opportunity to get their hands on the item for free/cheap.

I can see where that might be useful, but honestly it comes off like having a tight-fisted spouse. It would be difficult for me, as a player, to plan for things to buy because I have no idea how much I really have. Also, it'll mean you have your entire group after every reward asking "Can I afford XYZ?" I can see the utility, but it honestly seems like a pain in the butt.


Personally, I prefer to have a "character development" requirement. The rewards may be high, but as GM, I would require that you spend some money on character development. It may not necessarily have a direct in-game effect or benefit, but it fleshes out your character more.

[Stalag]

or get his wired reflexes from rating 1 to rating 2

There's an option less than 3?? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[Seriously Mike]

There's an option less than 3?? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

Actually, yes. For those situations where you have two standard cyber-arms fitted with spurs, cybereyes and no biocompatibility.

[Ascalaphus]

Isn't it much more cost-effective to replace Wired Reflexes with Synpatic Booster 3?

Beta WR-3 400.000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 3.5 Essence
Standard SB-3 240.000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 1.5 Essence

[Midas]

The whole shadowbank metaconcept seems totally redundant to me, as well as another way to dilute the "realism" of the game.

My players start as per RAI as competent professionals just starting to make names for themselves, with average payout about 5,000 per run. 5-10 runs down the line (depending on their success rate) they start getting the harder AA-corp type jobs with average payout around 20K. If they are good at that, then the odd high-risk big-payout AAA run might start dropping in their laps. So yes, at first they don't save much more than their cost of living, but as their rep goes up so does their bank balance.

I am amenable to karma newyen exchange at 10,000 for 1 karma, or 1 karma for 5,000 newyen, but none of my players have ever taken the option - the mundanes want to improve/diversify skills and raise attributes with karma as much as they want that shiny synaptic booster 3, and the awakened want small amounts of shiny expensive alpha-plus ware as much as they want to initiate/improve their skillset.

The character advancement imbalance you are worried about should only really start rearing its ugly head when the characters have amassed 200 karma or more, by which time the mundanes should have saved enough for a top-range implant. Initiating and raising magic give a great power boost, but are not exactly karma-shy. And if awakened characters in your game aren't also divesting themselves of karma for improving skills and spells as well as initiating, you probably aren't challenging them enough outside their comfort zone. As another poster suggested, making them pay for membership of magical groups could also deplete their bank balance if you are so inclined.

Players should be enjoying playing their character, and hopefully see them improve over time, and that should be all that matters to them. If they are looking over their shoulder and saying "It's not fair!" because another PC is getting more spotlight time, make sure you adjust your runs so everyone gets time to do their thing. And find a way to take the powerful character down a notch or two.

[Psikerlord]

We've never had an SR campaign go long enough to worry about balance issues between cash and karma. Everyone's always seemed to be wanting more of both! I guess if a campaign went on for years you might see a bit of a balance issue but the GM will hopefully see it coming an accomodate (cash wise - either more or less, depending on the what the magic types are doing with their karma)

[Juno]

He's told me why. Assume it's disturbing and move on. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

That's a vicious three-quarters truth! (I'm nearly sure I didn't tell you why!)

[Blade]

The problem is that players don't have the mindset of professional criminals who lived in the worst conditions for years.
Realistically, most PCs wouldn't save money. They'd blow it on parties, luxury items (for them and their family/friends) and a luxury lifestyle for as long as they can until it's all gone and they need to get a new job. They wouldn't save to buy new ware: they'd borrow money from some loan sharks to get the ware they need and repay with the money they'd make in their next job.

[Ol' Scratch]

The problem is that players don't have the mindset of professional criminals who lived in the worst conditions for years.
Realistically, most PCs wouldn't save money. They'd blow it on parties, luxury items (for them and their family/friends) and a luxury lifestyle for as long as they can until it's all gone and they need to get a new job. They wouldn't save to buy new ware: they'd borrow money from some loan sharks to get the ware they need and repay with the money they'd make in their next job.

That's the assumption the game designers want to force on you to make the game "work." While true for some, if not many, of these professional (keyword) criminals, there's definitely going to be a fair share who see risking their lives as a gamble in order to get out of the shadows. They're not just in it for women and booze, and they're not suicidal sociopaths out for a good time. And, even worse, when you are looking to hire some people to commit corporate espionage for you, you'd rather hire people who are actual professionals rather than the carousing nitwits who don't care if they live or die. So those types of character getting hired for anything beyond suicide or strong arm missions is pretty unbelievable in and of itself.

I prefer the boozing, whoring, sociopathic type characters myself. But it's not really practical in a field that has so much competition. It's not like there's only five runners operating in any given metroplex. It's an entire subculture. So why would a Johnson hire my borderline street trash over a real professional who'd be just as welcoming of the paycheck as I would be?

[Paul]

That's the assumption the game designers want to force on you to make the game "work." While true for some, if not many, of these professional (keyword) criminals, there's definitely going to be a fair share who see risking their lives as a gamble in order to get out of the shadows. They're not just in it for women and booze, and they're not suicidal sociopaths out for a good time. And, even worse, when you are looking to hire some people to commit corporate espionage for you, you'd rather hire people who are actual professionals rather than the carousing nitwits who don't care if they live or die. So those types of character getting hired for anything beyond suicide or strong arm missions is pretty unbelievable in and of itself.

I prefer the boozing, whoring, sociopathic type characters myself. But it's not really practical in a field that has so much competition. It's not like there's only five runners operating in any given metroplex. It's an entire subculture. So why would a Johnson hire my borderline street trash over a real professional who'd be just as welcoming of the paycheck as I would be?

And besides all of this is personal preference. At my table there isn't a whole subculture, and often runner's are street trash-so the professionals stand out. So do the sociopaths.

[Ascalaphus]

Players tend to see cash as a way to improve their characters, while "realistically", characters see cash as A) retirement savings or B) something to spend on lifestyle.

It's really something you'd like players to work with themselves because they want to roleplay, not force them through rules. Of course, saving up money for retirement has benefits; if you happen to amass a pile of money, that's also money you can splurge on something other than retirement, such as bailing people out of jail, or funding revenge on the corporation of your choice.

[Tiralee]

Will do a longer reply but it's late and I'm not thinking so great.

We tend to go by book prices and book codes (supply & Demand) but I don't need to enforce SOTA costs - the players do that automatically. Yes, the players scrimp and save and store favours like nuts and dead hookers (Don't ask) but they're also smart about trying to "finesse" the good stuff. Yeah, you might have an uber contact with the right gear - but because you've made the scene a little hot, they're incommunicado until it dies down.

And laundering the money goods takes a swinging great whack off of that loot you've gotten. 1 million is great, 300,000-500,00 not so good between 6 people because your face ran into an absolute bastard of a negotiator, less the costs incurred and the 6-month hiatus you're going to have to have because your faces are all over the trid.

Shadowbank is an interesting concept, but more on that later
-Tir

[DireRadiant]

I just ask the players what they want. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) They might not get it, but at least I know what will make them happy. Or what they think will make them happy. Sometimes it's just cookies.

[cndblank]

The other thing is if the runners are professionals with a decent rep then they are not going to be living hand to mouth because they will have to have a considerable investment in untraceable equipment (vehicles, gear, or ware).

The Johnson has to not only pay for their professional services and risk to their lives, but also cover the use and the risk to their working gear.

Gear that is hard to come by and can not be traced back to the Johnson's home office so at a premium.
Sure a good fixer can supply the needed gear, but that can get expensive fast and leave a trail.
And the runners will need time to familiarize themselves with it.
Much better to go to a runner team that already has the gear.

A rigger, hacker, or Street Samurai can have well over 100K in vehicles, gear, or ware. A Mage can use 10k in services for bound spirits in a run.

If there is a 10% chance that a quarter of their gear could be expended in the average run, then the runner has to take in 2500 nuyen per run just to cover base replacement cost let alone cover the cost of keeping up with SOTA or getting a fair price for the use of their gear. Plus cover any normal expenditures.

So if a runner is working four runs a month, to just be making as much as a lower middle class wage slave, he has to be clearing around 15K.

And two thirds of that goes to maintaining and replacing gear.

So the runner really needs to make more like 5K per run.



And a Johnson is wasting his company's cred if he is hiring runner without access to the gear needed to make sure the run will succeed.
If the operation is worth 250K with a 50% chance of success then a 25K investment for the research, fixer fee, and upfront cred to the runners with 25K more to the runners if a success would be a 400% return on the operation.
Are you going to risk 250K in order to save ten or twenty K on the runner team?

[cndblank]

The other thing is that the upfront cred and any payment they get even if the run goes south has to cover the risk to the vehicles, gear, or ware.
The more gear a team is bringing to the table (that will be used in the run) the more upfront and guaranteed cred a team is going to demand.

[Paul]

The more gear a team is bringing to the table (that will be used in the run) the more upfront and guaranteed cred a team is going to demand.

Huh. I guess we just don't see it that way. We generally expect that you, as a professional, have the gear required to do the basic job. You might request funds to cover especially expensive specialized equipment-but then from the looks of this thread I think our group has a pretty unique approach to...well a lot. Heh. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Ol' Scratch]

Huh. I guess we just don't see it that way. We generally expect that you, as a professional, have the gear required to do the basic job. You might request funds to cover especially expensive specialized equipment-but then from the looks of this thread I think our group has a pretty unique approach to...well a lot. Heh. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It's a realism vs. metagame problem.

In reality, you're trying to earn money. Not spend it just so you can play the game. Real professionals using real equipment with a sizable price tag on it are going to expect a larger pay check, especially if that equipment is going to be at risk. They didn't buy that equipment just so they can play an RPG, they bought it because it increases their value as professionals.

That said, shadowrunners are in a buyer's market. Despite what individual GMs prefer in their take of the game world, shadowrunners are a dime a dozen, especially in major cities like Seattle or Denver. If a group of runners won't do a job for a buck fiddy, a Johnson can just have the Fixers find some that will.

If you are one of the GMs who plays in a world where shadowrunners aren't easy to find, then it becomes more of a problem for one's suspension of disbelief. Runners should be setting the price, not the Johnsons. That's how it is in most works of fiction, too. Want to hire an assassin, thief, or other criminal? They tell you how much it'll cost, not the other way around, and the more professional they are and the more toys they have to use to get the job done, the bigger that price tag is.

[Paul]

It's a realism vs. metagame problem.

Uhmmm...okay.

In reality, you're trying to earn money.

Well that's kind of limiting isn't it? In reality some people are looking to earn. Others are action junkies. Still others just have nothing else. Many more options than just earning as I see it. But then too much of conversation-in the whole thread-makes a lot judgments based on the system. I think that's the problem half the time-people make their assumptions based on game information. I guess that's what you were getting at in the first sentence?

So I guess we're agreeing then? Sure we vary on some of the details-but overall I'd say we have at least a similar slant. There is one area I think I see things differently that I'd like to address however

If you are one of the GMs who plays in a world where shadowrunners aren't easy to find, then it becomes more of a problem for one's suspension of disbelief.

I don't agree with this premise, but let's look at the rest so I can make sense of my opinions, shall we?

Runners should be setting the price, not the Johnsons.

Why? I'd say it's kind of a two way street. The Johnson realistically only has so much of an operational budget. Now that total can be influenced by the players-but the idea that only the players (Which is what you seem to suggest, so correct me if I'm wrong.) should set the price seems a little off.

That's how it is in most works of fiction, too. Want to hire an assassin, thief, or other criminal? They tell you how much it'll cost, not the other way around, and the more professional they are and the more toys they have to use to get the job done, the bigger that price tag is.

Ah buut the market can only bear so much. Yeah Walmart get's to set the price on it's shelves, but if Meijer's, K-Mart and Target under sell them, they'll have to lower their prices right? If a team of runner price themselves out of the market, it's no different, right?

[Ol' Scratch]

Just because the runners are setting it, that doesn't meant he Johnson will accept it or won't offer his own counter-offer, nor does it mean that there isn't competition out there willing to do it for less (which is a non-issue if you play in a version of the game where runners are extraordinarily rare). It also doesn't mean that the Johnson can't just put an open offer out through various Fixers in the hopes of finding someone that way.

But if you want the guys with all the best skills and all the coolest toys, you have to be prepared to pay a lot. If they weren't looking to make money, they wouldn't invest all the time and effort into getting those skills or those grossly overpriced pieces of equipment. They'd be too busy blowing their cash on tequila and joytoys.

It's the goofy mindset that the Johnson always offers up anything they want and the players either have to take it or starve that's unbelievable. Especially when they've invested a hundred times that offer on their latest gadget, and doubly so when the job requires them to burn through more resources than they're earning. That's where it goes from unbelievable to absurd.

[cndblank]

What ever works for you.

I personally don't think that riggers with a 100k of top of the line untraceable surveillance and combat drones can be found hanging around the local Stuffer Shack.
Same goes for hot shot hackers, SOTA street samurai, and high power mages.

I just find it hard to believe these guys would risks their hard to get toys for peanuts from some Johnson.

Also note that the runner was putting over half his paycheck just to replace and upgrade his gear.

Certainly the Johnson is not paying for what he doesn't expect to use.
If the run is all about surveillance then he is not paying for the use of any combat drones or bound Spirit services.
And a Johnson can going go up as far as his budget.

Also work goes up and down.
Some times after a dry spell the runners are going to be hungry for a run just to keep their rep up and a roof over their head.
Other times you will be flush and can afford to pick and chose.
Other times you can't work because of the heat or injuries and you still have to make rent.

Certainly when you are starting out you are at your fixer's mercy. Newbie runners are a dime a dozen.
And if you have to start over, then you have to rebuild your rep and your resources.