The ninth session.., .. near the end of my tether Options

[hyphz]

So, session nine. I'm going to be a bit briefer here because honestly, I think it's just pretty much looking like Shadowrun isn't the game for me or this group. I'm quite sad about that, because I really like the setting and the ideas it has, but it feels like a horrible uphill struggle.

Part of the problem was that I got hugely stressed trying to prepare for this session. Since my previous attempt at challenging the PCs didn't go far enough, I decide to throw caution to the wind and just put whatever the hell I think will be a threat to them in, without regard for the "But would someone like that really be slumming it on the street?" issue that put me off on a lot of occasions before.

But then I had the problem of trying to make sure that the PCs actually found it, as having someone simply kicking in their apartment door seems a bit over the top, and nobody in their right mind is going to be sending them on a run at this point. So I try to think of a couple of threads that could get them into trouble. Because of Kaz's death, the assassination of the Yakuza accountants won't be happening, which means Grey-Wolf's compromise will go ahead and the Yaks will end up dealing Tempo in Seattle. However, Chikao and the Yakuza at the same time are decidedly mad at Grey-Wolf - because the Yaks, at Grey-Wolfs prompting, sent their assassins to ambush Kaz only to have the runners walk in on them and slaughter them with an oversummoned spirit. Chikao is still distinctly afraid that Grey-Wolf did the whole thing as a setup, and so both the Komun'Go and the Yakuza will be out for the runners' blood.

So one possibility was that Chikao, or one of his men, would call them posing as a Johnson and send them on the Flipside mission from part 2 of the book. The difference being that, in addition, he'd tip off Lone Star that something was going down at that bar and to send undercover. So hopefully the Flipside dealer gets killed, and the runners get hauled away for the murder which gets them out of the hair of the Yaks and the Komun'Go. I feel unsure about this, though - seems a bit odd that the Yakuza would really try to get Lone Star involved, and also it doesn't seem like it would play well as the PCs would probably surrender to the cops. A better bet would be to have some Yaks and Stand Over Men hanging around the bar ready to finish off the PCs after they've hit the Flipside dealer - but if they're going to do that why bother with the whole Flipside business to begin with? I just figure I can try to fudge that somehow.

Another possibility was that we still had an open thread of Dae not turning up at Caesar's party, although I figured news of her death would have reached Jacob, and possibly the mafia, by now. But that just meant trying to run yet another large group that I have even less information about which is already problematic. Also, an off-the-wall possibility was that I read, on one of the fora here, a mention that the shedim encounter in Ghost Cartels was "too hard" and therefore figured facing shedim would be a good challenge. So I thought that, perhaps, Dae would end up possessed - bad things happen when you dump bodies in Z-Zones, after all, and Dae's position would give them plenty of opportunity to stir up gang troubles and generally cause a lot of war and death and other things shedim like. (Honestly I was starting to wonder if ghouls and/or shedim would just follow the Death Truck around looking for their next fix, but I passed on that one..)

Oh, incidentally, another big hassle. Based on the stats in Ghost Cartels, Shedim aren't Immune to Normal Weapons. In order to find out that in fact they are, I had to cross-reference shedim into Street Magic, then refer to the Possession power, then refer to a sidebar with extra details on how possession works. So it was in a different, and optional, book buried in a description of one sub-power of the shedim, just to save them printing four extra words on the character sheet in GC. This is another thing that stresses me out about this game. There are way too many little gotchas in the rules of this kind. What becomes really frustrating though is that it's a jekyll-and-hyde thing - there's plenty of complicated rules for resolution but because of the huge degree of freedom the player characters have, you end up having to eyeball critical stats which basically makes all those rules meaningless when they quickly come down to "roll 10 dice and see how it turns out".

Still - Chikao acting as a Johnson was the only immediate handle I had on a mission for the runners, and the shedim thing might come up later - but it was hardly going to make its first priority to go and fight the runners who killed its host before, so that wouldn't grab the PCs. As it turned out, though, I didn't need it. This is another big stressor. Ideally the runners will take their own actions and drive the plot forward - that's great if that happens - but I also have to have missions and things ready for them, because it can't be guaranteed that the whole table won't just go quiet and the game stall at some point. So I have to prepare multiple, complex encounters many of which will not be used because they are "just in case".

So.. the session began with the runners looting the guns from the Yakuza assassins they killed at the end of the previous session. Caine's player had redone his character - as he mentioned on this forum - and while Zod's player hasn't posted here (I don't think), he also read the thread and had modified his character too to have more reasonable stats (ie, no more Str 1). The runners searched around to find the Yakuza men's cars, and Haxor hacked into them to try and disable their anti-theft systems in the hope they could sell the cars on to a chop shop somewhere. The runners then decided to go looking for Grey-Wolf, wanting revenge for the apparent set-up.

After a bit of discussion about whether we had eventually decided that they could track his location through his commcode, I eventually allow them to track him to a 50m radius as stated for the Track User action, which gets them that he is somewhere near the docks. In fact, I decide he's in a meeting with Chikao Inoue and Sacristan to smooth things over about the Yakuza set-up and to formally hand over the tempo operation. This'll help the runners get back on track and also make sure things aren't too easy: the meeting is taking place in the KondOrchid extraterritorial warehouse where the incoming tempo was being kept and everybody is on high alert. They've brought drones, mages with summoned spirits, a spider, the works. And here's where the real whole thing about the "jekyll-and-hyde" rule complexity comes in: technically I have to adlib all of this, but I basically just rule that most of the stats for high-end things are around 5, and just resort to rolling 10d whenever I'm not sure. Now, I normally like crunchy rules systems but having it collapse like that takes a lot of the fun out of it for me.

So, Zod decides to rent a hotel room next to the docks from which he can have a window view of the docks, although all he can see is the two guards on the locked front gate and four cars parked inside the compound. Haxor decides to try hacking the security system of the docks to see if he can see anything on the security cameras. He manages to do this but finds no-one on the security cameras in the cabin offices by the docks; I suggest that the warehouse may have its own node, which he then goes after. He goes in for an admin account on the node, but on his second pass trips the node alert and gets the attention of the spider. The spider first tries to track him, but can't complete this before he completes the hack, so the spider runs Attack on him but misses. Haxor hits the spider with Black Hammer for a few boxes of stun, and the spider figures that the gloves are off and spends Edge to hit Haxor back with Black Hammer dealing 8 or so boxes of Stun. Haxor hits back again, not quite stunning the spider, and the spider decides to start a reboot on the node. Haxor hits him one more time, knocking him out and slightly damaging his brain, and then wants to halt the reboot - since he has an admin account it seems he should be able to do this, so I allow it.

He then proceeds to look through the security camera and sees Chikao and Grey-Wolf talking to each other in the middle of the room, surrounded by their own entourages of bodyguards and with drones roaming above. He also tries to access the shipping records for the warehouse, and finds out about large amounts of material moving in and out, although the goods have been given coded descriptions so it's not immediately clear what the items in question are. The team then decide that, since there do not appear to be any innocent people in the warehouse, Haxor will hack the four cars outside and program each one with an Agent that will cause it to crash or drive into the sea on command. He heads off to begin doing this, but at that point his camera feed picks up one of the guards pulling the unconscious spider's body out of the warehouse's observation office and..

.. and I suddenly realize we have a sodding siege. Thee is no way the runners are going into the warehouse, but there is no way the people inside will come out while they know they're under threat. They certainly won't trust their GridGuides after knowing a hacker is on the loose. The runners basically just say "well, we'll sit and wait for them to come out". Apparently we are deadlocked.

But the guys inside aren't just passive, right? One of the mages inside the warehouse casts Detect Enemies. Now, Haxor is working from a Rigger Cocoon in the truck a few blocks away - but the Detect Enemies does catch Zod, who blows his Willpower resistance and shows up in the hotel room. A moment later, he's engulfed by a fire spirit send by the mage (I used the FBI mage's stats). He survives the first round of fire damage, then shoots the spirit and destroys it; at 5 force even 10 armor isn't likely to deal with an assault rifle shot. Again I wasn't sure about if this was legal or not - the rules state that somebody engulfed can't "move", and in most tactical RPGs I know, "move" is a formal term which means moving between squares or over distance, not referring to the arm motions necessary to fire a gun.

So, yes, we left it there (in part because Caine's player wanted to leave). But it's just getting to me at this point. I just don't think I can handle the thing where the player have huge amounts of freedom but at the same time the system is so complicated and depends on the precise geographic properties of all the areas people are in. I'm a bit sad about it, since I like crunchy rules and I like the idea of the players having freedom, but trying to run it is just making my head explode. And challenging the players, ok, I can prepare situations, but unless I do suddenly rule that somebody's found out where they are and ambushes them, then the runners will just sidestep going to the challenging situation. And combine that with the fact that if they _are_ ambushed, the "no defence possible" rule means it'll likely be a washout rather than a challenge.. I just don't know where I can do it, and I don't know to what extent I can carry on handling running a game that's giving me so much pre-game stress trying to work out what the heck I can do.

So. Yea. I haven't decided absolutely to drop Shadowrun yet but it's getting to be a strong possibility because of all these issues and confusion. Is there any way to give the runners challenges they won't just avoid, without having them ambushed unfairly? Is there any way to prevent extensive eyeballing collapsing the rules? Is there a good way of putting some character advancement back into the game?

[Seriously Mike]

There is no such thing as an unfair ambush. As long as there's no ass pull involved.

[Yerameyahu]

Yay, a new episode! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) My favorite reality show.

I like how you always err on the side of player power. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I'd assume they have to fight off the Engulf before doing anything, for example.

It seems like most of your frustration is simply not knowing all the rules. That's a tough one to fix easily.

[Mardrax]

I just don't think I can handle the thing where the player have huge amounts of freedom but at the same time the system is so complicated and depends on the precise geographic properties of all the areas people are in.
...
And challenging the players, ok, I can prepare situations, but unless I do suddenly rule that somebody's found out where they are and ambushes them, then the runners will just sidestep going to the challenging situation.
...
I just don't know where I can do it, and I don't know to what extent I can carry on handling running a game that's giving me so much pre-game stress trying to work out what the heck I can do.

So. Yea. I haven't decided absolutely to drop Shadowrun yet but it's getting to be a strong possibility because of all these issues and confusion. Is there any way to give the runners challenges they won't just avoid, without having them ambushed unfairly? Is there any way to prevent extensive eyeballing collapsing the rules? Is there a good way of putting some character advancement back into the game?

Ok, I'm going to repeat a few things here I have last said to my group's current GM.

First of all: stop stressing! This is a game you're talking! It's about having fun. About you guys getting together and doing just that. And from what I've heard from the players in your group who are active here, they are. That's a mission accomplished. Things don't have to run perfect. You don't have to have all the rules memorised, and everything working exactly as RAW dictates it should. You don't have to play the module like it's written, sticking strictly to that and feeling bound by what it does and does not list. Make stuff up! Eyeball things! As a GM, that's your job. You know this. Have the world keep some verisimillitude, while keeping the fun in by keeping the game going. Keep the world running like you think it should. Like your (you and the rest of the group's) story dictates it should. Deal with rules questions out of game. After the session has ended, while people are out getting pizza, whatever. When you don't know something, make it clear that you don't know how to handle it by RAW, and that you're just stating it works a certain way until you do. No one will mind one bit. In the end, rules are a tool, not a constraint, not an obligation.

That said, do realise what you've gotten into.
You've decided to run a published campaign meant for more advanced characters. You've a bunch of characters on your hands who have been for the most part hyperspecialised out of their noses.
You're a new group, with new players and a new GM. All of you are only just getting familiar with the system, the rules, the setting.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to spot the dissonance there. Problems were foreseeable from the get go.

I would definitely iterate the advice to park this campaign by the wayside for a bit and have the players generate some characters through karmagen. Possibly don't go for the full 750, and set a fresh-out-of-chargen dicepool cap. Play these through a simple run, or two, or three, devoid of any tie ins to bigger schemes at hand and whatnot. Simple scenarios. Tailor them to have specific events that will necessitate a grasp of a single part of the rules. Have an alley shootout, a melee, a vehicle combat, some hacking, some shadowing, some getting around undetected, some arcane detectiving, etc. Whatever you don't know about as much as you should yet. See some gangs, some corps, some police, some high living, some low living. And not all of it in one go either. Look the rules regarding those situations up before the session.
Read those core books. SR4A, Street Magic, Unwired, even Runners Companion. Back to front. Don't attempt to memorise them, just read. Soak up that stuff, that you may hear a faint chime of recognition when something arises, and look up what was up with it in a speedy fashion.

Yes, it is a tough game to get into. There are a lot of rules, of which a lot are strewn throughout the books in seemingly random places. But using those rules will get you acquainted with them, little bits at a time. And the acquaintance will make you see the bigger picture, give you the insight to ad lib things without feeling like everything's disintegrating. And when you still feel you're missing things: ask them here like you're doing. We don't mind answering questions you don't mind asking.

But most of all: don't be afraid. You're with friends. You might muck things up now and again, but you're not the sole one responsible for their fun. And if they wouldn't be having fun, they wouldn't be showing up every week.
And really, from where I'm sitting, you're doing great. You're willing to learn. You're showing a massive drive to perform, to entertain. Your players are saying they trust you to handle things the right way. They're having fun, or at least the vocal ones are.

That track you're on: keep it. You're finding your freedoms, while finding stuff out in the meantime. All the while having to ad lib less and less, as comprehension sets in. Just remember to keep on going forward.
Now just for you to find that same happy spot.

[Glyph]

I think the biggest problem is that you seem to require a less ambiguous system. SR4 has a lot of crunch, but there are still lots of areas where GMs are supposed to wing it. You were on the right tack with the meet, when you were using dice pools instead of worrying about every last stat. And I still maintain that using a published adventure that doesn't fit the group's style is not going to work as well as going with the flow and running a game that suits everyone's playstyle better (although it sounds like your players are trying to adapt, and doing a surprisingly decent job of it - a lot more thinking and planning, and munchkin characters re-done to be more balanced).

Also, while they may have complained about things being too easy, you're going about it the wrong way by trying to match them with stats. Shadowrun is a game of glass cannons, where combat is incredibly lethal, and where tactics and lateral thinking can (and should) completely circumvent obstacles. So if you worry about nothing but the "level" of the opposition, you will be frustrated. This is a game where the same enemy can either take out the entire group, be taken out by them just as easily, or be avoided because the PCs did something unexpected.

Challenge them with how the world reacts to them, with how their reputation rises and falls, with the enemies and allies that they make, with how they interact with all of the people around them. This isn't a first-person shooter - don't just go from set-piece to set-piece conflict. Have them go to a bar to unwind, or have the grateful Johnson give them front-row tickets to watch the Mariners get beat by the Portland Lords, or introduce a potential love interest to one of the PCs. Immerse them in a living, breathing world, and give them a stake in it. Let the NPCs react logically, and let the balance, while it still needs some tweaking from you, take care of itself more.

[hyphz]

The players were also saying that it's a game and I shouldn't stress out, and that's OK. It's just there's two horrible problems I fear happening with "winging it":

a) everything going quiet and nobody knowing what they're meant to do;
b) what I call being "pinned down" - having to answer a long series of detail questions about an area, and having to pick through them in an incredibly paranoid way because the slightest error can trash or trivialize an entire encounter. It might only take 1m of range to make the difference between "tense firefight" and "we hose them down because we're out of their range but they're in ours".

I don't mind too much SR being an ambiguous system, but I don't like the idea of PCs getting killed because an ambiguity ended up being resolved the wrong way. So if there's going to be a big, balls-to-the-wall challenge with lives on the line, there has to be as little ambiguity as possible in that, which is why I wanted to prepare everything if I was going to make things harder.

[Paul]

Every system has some ambiguity in it. You're job as the Game Master is to be the arbitrator of those ambiguities. Have a serious conversation with your Players. Explain where you've seen some gaps, and what your plan is to change it. Don't be afraid to take some suggestions-but I'd be willing to bet they want a GM. You're that cat. Drive the Bus, or get run over by it home skillet.

[Stalag]

Opening shot: Based on the comment "near the end of my tether" in the title for this thread, the following responses will assume you are not enjoying running the game

So, session nine. I'm going to be a bit briefer here because honestly, I think it's just pretty much looking like Shadowrun isn't the game for me or this group. I'm quite sad about that, because I really like the setting and the ideas it has, but it feels like a horrible uphill struggle.

So let someone else GM. Just because you think you aren't doing a good job at it doesn't mean someone else wouldn't do a better job.

Part of the problem was that I got hugely stressed trying to prepare for this session.

Which is the point at which you should have put the books down and walked away. It's a game - NEVER get stressed out over a game

"But would someone like that really be slumming it on the street?"

There's two sides to this: First, your runners wouldn't be slumming it in the streets being the hyper specialists they are. They should be doing high level hits on unsuspecting targets. Second, there's some pretty nasty stuff running around the Barrens as long as you're willing to step away from the script.

Because of Kaz's death, the assassination of the Yakuza accountants won't be happening...<blah blah blah>

As others have said, one of your main failings is that, against all advice, you keep trying to stick to this published module intended for experienced SR GM's and experienced players who actually want to follow the story.

Oh, incidentally, another big hassle. Based on the stats in Ghost Cartels, Shedim aren't Immune to Normal Weapons.

That's okay, even things that are "Immune to Normal Weapons" actually aren't... it's just hardened armor.

This is another thing that stresses me out about this game. There are way too many little gotchas in the rules of this kind. What becomes really frustrating though is that it's a jekyll-and-hyde thing - there's plenty of complicated rules for resolution but because of the huge degree of freedom the player characters have, you end up having to eyeball critical stats which basically makes all those rules meaningless when they quickly come down to "roll 10 dice and see how it turns out".

Yes, that along with "we'll make these rules over here for things your runners may only run into once in a campaign unnecessarily complex and somewhat arbitrary but these rules over here for things that could happen on just about any run we'll leave vague and incomplete" It's one of my major gripes.

This is another big stressor. Ideally the runners will take their own actions and drive the plot forward - that's great if that happens - but I also have to have missions and things ready for them, because it can't be guaranteed that the whole table won't just go quiet and the game stall at some point. So I have to prepare multiple, complex encounters many of which will not be used because they are "just in case".

This is not the games fault - it's yours for insisting on this module and theirs for not sticking to that modules "plot". In some games modules are little better than "choose your own adventure" books, SR modules are a bit more complex. They tend to give some of the hard details in some spots ("Read the following to the characters:" These guys have these specific stats) while giving you more of a general "sketch" of things in others and then relying on the GM and players to fill in the gaps. And I'll say it again "wrong module for a starting group"... try On the Run instead - it's geared towards first time players and GM's.

[Stalag]

I'd assume they have to fight off the Engulf before doing anything, for example.

I also don't think you'd assume an assault rifle shot would insta-kill a Force 5 spirit or that all the "high level" NPC's only have 10 dice

[Stalag]

a) everything going quiet and nobody knowing what they're meant to do

If you're truly "winging it" then they aren't "meant" to do anything - it's up to them. Though honestly, your players have been winging it the whole time - you're the only one that seems concerned with that they're "meant" to do.

what I call being "pinned down" - having to answer a long series of detail questions about an area, and having to pick through them in an incredibly paranoid way because the slightest error can trash or trivialize an entire encounter. It might only take 1m of range to make the difference between "tense firefight" and "we hose them down because we're out of their range but they're in ours".

So only your players carry assault rifles? Really, the only reason your players have survived thus far, munchkin power aside, is your willingness to let them auto-win a lot of situations.

I don't mind too much SR being an ambiguous system, but I don't like the idea of PCs getting killed because an ambiguity ended up being resolved the wrong way. So if there's going to be a big, balls-to-the-wall challenge with lives on the line, there has to be as little ambiguity as possible in that, which is why I wanted to prepare everything if I was going to make things harder.

You're still stuck on this concept of "challenge = combat". We keep trying to explain, SR combat is lethal - it's ideally meant to be avoided if possible.

[CanRay]

The hardest challenge I ever ran into in any RPG was in a game of Cyberpunk 2020 at GenCon, where we fought...

A locked steel warehouse door. Just couldn't get through the damned thing. Finally had a character climb up the wall, get through a window, and fall (Ungracefully) down a stack of crates, which came tumbling after her.

The GM (who is an old online friend) reminds me of this every so often...

[AppliedCheese]

You know, at least the session sounds like it went a lot better, conflict wise. 10 DP is still pretty low for high end opposition, but sounds about right for "competent unaugmented undrugged shooter" (Agi 3 , Autos 3, Spec 2, Smartlink 2) Throw some recoil comp on there and they're quite lethal. Assuming the ubiquitous AK, (cheaper than many pistols), your baseline average goon can throw lead that will threaten anyone within 150m or so, and non sammies out to 300.

Re: precise geographic location. Not all that essential. Really. How often are you on the precise 1m border? And are the PC's walking towards their targets with laser range finders and GoogleFoxMapWorld constantly pinging (actually, yes, if they have a smartgun...but not the point)? I mean, general range bands are there to be general, not a precise measurement of "at exactly 5m, you lose accuracy with a holdout." Real firefight involves lots of little movements to get a shot off, even when your "standing still" If its 1 or 2m that's making or breaking, ignore it.

The rolls for that F5 dying would be interesting. Its well within mathematical variances for two bursts from an Ares Alpha loaded with APDS, but the actual mechanics could be instructional about gunplay.

So, as everyone says, now it comes down to who gets the shot off, which is where lateral gming comes into play. Guess what? A siege ends when the side with more resources wins. So, its your players running against the clock, not the yak and rings. Because right now, the help call is going out. Drones are being diverted. Hackers are being flashed node addresses, and icon/link profiles of haxor, and being told to go root out whatever happened to their cars. The mage's are doing a nice big astral sweep to find the runner's mage.

It won't be instant. Things take time, and coordination. But if the players stand still for too long, playing the waiting game, the hammer will fall. Nows either the time for them to go balls out, or back out and try a different angle later.


P.S. from session start
Those cars had an ID and were broadcasting on the grid guide, and our favorite yak assassins had some matrix oversight (because hey, would you send 10 gun men to mow down a rings leader without a hacker on call?), the yak have been tracking your group's movement from the warehouse onwards. And probably asked your chop shop where they ended up exactly who came by and sold them. Asking implying the loss of small digits for bad answers.

[Ryu]

Read this: Method´s thread on Adventure Design

You are already challenging the players and they do a good job of learning just what they can do besides just shooting. Note that you have a fresh group using magic + hacking. Be glad.

What do you understand by "avoiding a challenge"?

So.. the session began with the runners looting the guns from the Yakuza assassins they killed at the end of the previous session. Caine's player had redone his character - as he mentioned on this forum - and while Zod's player hasn't posted here (I don't think), he also read the thread and had modified his character too to have more reasonable stats (ie, no more Str 1). The runners searched around to find the Yakuza men's cars, and Haxor hacked into them to try and disable their anti-theft systems in the hope they could sell the cars on to a chop shop somewhere. The runners then decided to go looking for Grey-Wolf, wanting revenge for the apparent set-up.

After a bit of discussion about whether we had eventually decided that they could track his location through his commcode, I eventually allow them to track him to a 50m radius as stated for the Track User action, which gets them that he is somewhere near the docks. In fact, I decide he's in a meeting with Chikao Inoue and Sacristan to smooth things over about the Yakuza set-up and to formally hand over the tempo operation. This'll help the runners get back on track and also make sure things aren't too easy: the meeting is taking place in the KondOrchid extraterritorial warehouse where the incoming tempo was being kept and everybody is on high alert. They've brought drones, mages with summoned spirits, a spider, the works. And here's where the real whole thing about the "jekyll-and-hyde" rule complexity comes in: technically I have to adlib all of this, but I basically just rule that most of the stats for high-end things are around 5, and just resort to rolling 10d whenever I'm not sure. Now, I normally like crunchy rules systems but having it collapse like that takes a lot of the fun out of it for me.

Next target: Grey-Wolf. Please refrain from trying to get the train back on the tracks. You have just put Inoue and Sacristan at a high risk of dying.

Don´t set up situations you can´t resolve fast enough. For a fresh SR GM, trying to keep close to the storyline of a published adventure with a group that has developed quite different goals than expected is very hard. You make things more challenging on yourself by setting up an assault on a clandestine meeting including complete security teams on both sides.

Have prepared stat sheets: Aaron´s Cheat Sheets. Look for the NPC record sheet, Grunts record sheet, Standby Squads. Now instead of ad-libbing a single pool (dp 10), adlib a fitting type of enemy, adding individual detail on the fly.

So, Zod decides to rent a hotel room next to the docks from which he can have a window view of the docks, although all he can see is the two guards on the locked front gate and four cars parked inside the compound. Haxor decides to try hacking the security system of the docks to see if he can see anything on the security cameras. He manages to do this but finds no-one on the security cameras in the cabin offices by the docks; I suggest that the warehouse may have its own node, which he then goes after. He goes in for an admin account on the node, but on his second pass trips the node alert and gets the attention of the spider. The spider first tries to track him, but can't complete this before he completes the hack, so the spider runs Attack on him but misses. Haxor hits the spider with Black Hammer for a few boxes of stun, and the spider figures that the gloves are off and spends Edge to hit Haxor back with Black Hammer dealing 8 or so boxes of Stun. Haxor hits back again, not quite stunning the spider, and the spider decides to start a reboot on the node. Haxor hits him one more time, knocking him out and slightly damaging his brain, and then wants to halt the reboot - since he has an admin account it seems he should be able to do this, so I allow it.

Prepare surveilance spot, hack surveilance system => good. The spider should have kept to the Black Hammer tactic once chosen.

.. and I suddenly realize we have a sodding siege. Thee is no way the runners are going into the warehouse, but there is no way the people inside will come out while they know they're under threat. They certainly won't trust their GridGuides after knowing a hacker is on the loose. The runners basically just say "well, we'll sit and wait for them to come out". Apparently we are deadlocked.

But the guys inside aren't just passive, right? One of the mages inside the warehouse casts Detect Enemies. Now, Haxor is working from a Rigger Cocoon in the truck a few blocks away - but the Detect Enemies does catch Zod, who blows his Willpower resistance and shows up in the hotel room. A moment later, he's engulfed by a fire spirit send by the mage (I used the FBI mage's stats). He survives the first round of fire damage, then shoots the spirit and destroys it; at 5 force even 10 armor isn't likely to deal with an assault rifle shot. Again I wasn't sure about if this was legal or not - the rules state that somebody engulfed can't "move", and in most tactical RPGs I know, "move" is a formal term which means moving between squares or over distance, not referring to the arm motions necessary to fire a gun.

Technically only Zod´s side of the building seems to be under siege, and your team ain´t large enough to cover all sides to keep the inside people from getting out. If everything else fails, the targets can also call for relief forces, either as KondOrchid (warehouse under attack), or Yakuza defensive action. Remember that you set this operation up. A more experienced team would have tried to hit Grey Wolf on the move, avoiding the warehouse challenge altogether.

Zod has ill intentions for Grey Wolf, but not the mage personally. Therefore Detect Enemies does not do a thing. That spell is widely overrated, as even guards are only detected once the guards have seen the team and do have ill intentions for a PC mage. And no, no attacking for those engulfed.

So, yes, we left it there (in part because Caine's player wanted to leave). But it's just getting to me at this point. I just don't think I can handle the thing where the player have huge amounts of freedom but at the same time the system is so complicated and depends on the precise geographic properties of all the areas people are in. I'm a bit sad about it, since I like crunchy rules and I like the idea of the players having freedom, but trying to run it is just making my head explode. And challenging the players, ok, I can prepare situations, but unless I do suddenly rule that somebody's found out where they are and ambushes them, then the runners will just sidestep going to the challenging situation. And combine that with the fact that if they _are_ ambushed, the "no defence possible" rule means it'll likely be a washout rather than a challenge.. I just don't know where I can do it, and I don't know to what extent I can carry on handling running a game that's giving me so much pre-game stress trying to work out what the heck I can do.

Stop trying to follow the storyline. The storyline is dead. Keep things simple. Don´t see combat as primary challenge. Due to it´s lethality, avoiding combat is usually the challenge. Try numerically superior weak enemies.

Next stop: Hiding from the Yakuza. Killing crooks is fine, but this is a large syndicate that likes to send messages. The Yak´s have MANY options: tracking via the matrix, legwork, sending other runners, sending gangs...


I suggest we do indeed set up SR bootcamp for you. During bootcamp, the PCs are expected to succeed if they have the tools of the trade. I would consider:
1) Getting in/on a building
a) social
b) hacking I think you´ve got that down.
c) physical

2) Fighting
a) stationary defenses
b) fighting by proxy
c) attacking

4) Loosing a tail

[hyphz]

Also, while they may have complained about things being too easy, you're going about it the wrong way by trying to match them with stats. Shadowrun is a game of glass cannons, where combat is incredibly lethal, and where tactics and lateral thinking can (and should) completely circumvent obstacles. So if you worry about nothing but the "level" of the opposition, you will be frustrated. This is a game where the same enemy can either take out the entire group, be taken out by them just as easily, or be avoided because the PCs did something unexpected. Challenge them with how the world reacts to them, with how their reputation rises and falls, with the enemies and allies that they make, with how they interact with all of the people around them. This isn't a first-person shooter - don't just go from set-piece to set-piece conflict. Have them go to a bar to unwind, or have the grateful Johnson give them front-row tickets to watch the Mariners get beat by the Portland Lords, or introduce a potential love interest to one of the PCs. Immerse them in a living, breathing world, and give them a stake in it. Let the NPCs react logically, and let the balance, while it still needs some tweaking from you, take care of itself more.

Well, this is what I hoped would happen to some extent - why I didn't balk at those over-the-top stat blocks in the first place. But I knew from the start that the players aren't interested in roleplaying hanging out at a bar, going to a sports event, or having relationships, just because it's so cringeworthy to know that we're basically just sitting around a table pretending to have colorful regular lives. Even if I asked them to play this kind of thing out, I don't think they'd care enough about it for it to matter to their characters - yes, I know that's the Juicer Problem writ large, but it's how things turn out. Going out and shooting things up or getting into gang wars, well, that's fine to play out because who wants to do that in real life?

As for how the world reacts to them in the terms of the things they do play, well, I've been trying to work out how that might happen in ways that are fun but it's kind of difficult. Their notoriety is at something like 12 by now, (so yea, PI is something like 4) although again I hit a problem with the mega specialization, as this is mostly the result of the other PCs actions, but its only real effect is to hose Faceman's player completely. If that doesn't come out in some kind of combat or conflict then it won't matter to the players unless I want to do the horrible, "whimper" campaign ending of saying they no longer have any sustainable contacts feeding them missions.

[hyphz]

If you're truly "winging it" then they aren't "meant" to do anything - it's up to them. Though honestly, your players have been winging it the whole time - you're the only one that seems concerned with that they're "meant" to do.

Well, players are meant to wing it, right? It's about giving them freedom. I've always thought that is GM I'm supposed to provide their interaction with the world, and that means as far as possible avoiding the situation where they suddenly find themselves walking through genericville on the way to fudgeton.

So only your players carry assault rifles? Really, the only reason your players have survived thus far, munchkin power aside, is your willingness to let them auto-win a lot of situations.

The PCs aren't the only ones who carry assault rifles, but most of their opposition are either explicitly statted as not doing so or it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Plus, we have PCs who, at Ex+Aug+Apt, are quite literally the best shot a metahuman can ever be, so shouldn't that mean they win stuff?

You're still stuck on this concept of "challenge = combat". We keep trying to explain, SR combat is lethal - it's ideally meant to be avoided if possible.

Sure, but if you play the setting as being that people are keen on avoiding combat, PCs can get auto-wins in many conflicts simply by threatening gunplay. Especially if they have a character who wins initiative and full-autos everyone in the first pass. That way, everyone else has to avoid pissing you off, for the same reason.

[hyphz]

Opening shot: Based on the comment "near the end of my tether" in the title for this thread, the following responses will assume you are not enjoying running the game

When it's going well, I'm quite enjoying running. I'm definitely not enjoying the stress-outs of having to chase potentially-critical rules through multiple books (having Immunity to Normal or not could easily turn an encounter around), have so many things prepared, and trying to wing things while at the same time making them challenging but not impossible. That's the big problem I have with winging t, a lot of the time - if I wing stats for the opposition and the opposition turn out to win and kill the PCs, how do I know I didn't just drop a meteor on them? How do the players know?

So let someone else GM. Just because you think you aren't doing a good job at it doesn't mean someone else wouldn't do a better job.

I don't mind if someone else wants to GM. Dawg's player (Gazzor) I generally consider a better GM than me, but he ran our D&D4e campaign that lasted for several months before this and specifically wanted to take a break. (It also had exactly the same problem - nothing was a challenge or engaging except very rare occasions which usually came up by accident. But the D&D4e system is pretty disasterous for that, as noted by the huge surge of errata that appeared once the designers actually got to meet players.)

There's two sides to this: First, your runners wouldn't be slumming it in the streets being the hyper specialists they are. They should be doing high level hits on unsuspecting targets. Second, there's some pretty nasty stuff running around the Barrens as long as you're willing to step away from the script.

A "high level hit on an unsuspecting target"? That doesn't sound challenging at all - if they are, as you say, unsuspecting.

This is not the games fault - it's yours for insisting on this module and theirs for not sticking to that modules "plot". In some games modules are little better than "choose your own adventure" books, SR modules are a bit more complex. They tend to give some of the hard details in some spots ("Read the following to the characters:" These guys have these specific stats) while giving you more of a general "sketch" of things in others and then relying on the GM and players to fill in the gaps. And I'll say it again "wrong module for a starting group"... try On the Run instead - it's geared towards first time players and GM's.

We did On The Run in the first few sessions I posted on this thread - some parts of it went a little better but not much more so. And I'm not really keeping the players on the plot; I'm just clear that the plot is going on around the runners, thus the different effects they've had on it. If they don't want to follow the plot they don't have to but of course I'd much prefer it if they do, because if I have to "wing" opposition for them when they tried to do something unexpected, I hit the problem of how to make that a fair challenge while winging it. Chess is only a fair game because you can see all the pieces on the board at the start, if I am winging a challenge and throw in an extra queen halfway through then how's it a reasonable challenge anymore? If I win with my extra queen, mightn't the players end up thinking that, if I had lost, I would have just produced a second extra queen?

[AppliedCheese]

"The PCs aren't the only ones who carry assault rifles, but most of their opposition are either explicitly statted as not doing so or it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Plus, we have PCs who, at Ex+Aug+Apt, are quite literally the best shot a metahuman can ever be, so shouldn't that mean they win stuff? "

No. It means they win exchanges of fire down blank alleys with unthinking targets trying to do the exact same thing back in perfect order. A DP 14, 3 IP, Base init 8 + 8d6Hits shooter (less than 70k in ware, gear, and training) who gets the drop on Zod will still kill him. Being an olympic grade marksman does not make you an olympic grade operator. Really, given an open block of jungle , urban or otherwise, would you bet on the Men's Pistol Gold Medal, or your average SWAT member?

[CanRay]

Really, given an open block of jungle , urban or otherwise, would you bet on the Men's Pistol Gold Medal, or your average SWAT member?

The Ork with the Panther Assault Cannon.

[AppliedCheese]

...there is that option, yes...though he could still be shot in the back form any of the buildings or somesuch.

[Yerameyahu]

… Except Shadowrun isn't a fair game. You're supposed to avoid drawing the attention of the Queens (hell, the Knights).

[HunterHerne]

… Except Shadowrun isn't a fair game. You're supposed to avoid drawing the attention of the Queens (hell, the Knights).

I usually try to avoid the attention of the pawns, even.

[Friendbot2000]

This is just a thought, but why don't you throw in some custom content in there? Give them a real challenge that isn't in the sourcebooks. For instance, I am setting my players up to go against a firebender adept (a way I developed, inspired from Avatar the Last Air Bender series). Fire damage halves impact armor and is quite nasty. Or use an enemy that causes electric damage. Use environmental effects to shape the battlefield.

In the future I am having them go up against a mutated sasquatch that has a ton of critter powers that will pose a real challenge to my players. I put them against enemies that can't be killed with just "BANG BANG you're dead".

Give enemies weaknesses that are not in the players standard handbook for fighting.

It seems to me that you are pulling your punches and not unleashing all of your powers as a GM. You have to be willing to break the rules when creating custom content and you know what, it is okay. My players know by now once they faced that Magneto Magician that they can't mess around with what I throw at them because it will be anything but a walk in the park. My suggestion to you is go for the jugular, not to kill but to put the fear of god into their characters. Nothing makes players smarter than a near TPK.

Trust me on this, once you give them a true challenge by putting custom content into the game you will become more confident in your abilities. A word of advice, it is always hard when you are just starting out as a GM. You always think the worst of yourself because you are inexperienced. You have to keep your chin up because often times you are doing better than you think you are. GMs are creatures that beat up on themselves a lot when they first start. Throwing all of your punches is a good way to boost confidence and give you the balls to say no.

[Yerameyahu]

Um. No. It is rarely good practice to throw truly random weirdness at the players, *unless* they could reasonably expect such a thing to be possible. Dudes with guns and radios should be perfectly capable of 'challenging' the PCs, if they actually *use* that gear.

[HunterHerne]

Um. No. It is rarely good practice to throw truly random weirdness at the players, *unless* they could reasonably expect such a thing to be possible. Dudes with guns and radios should be perfectly capable of 'challenging' the PCs, if they actually *use* that gear.

And even if you do throw random wierdness, it's not a good idea to throw them at new players, so they can get a feel for what is normal-ish in the SR world first.

[Friendbot2000]

Um. No. It is rarely good practice to throw truly random weirdness at the players, *unless* they could reasonably expect such a thing to be possible. Dudes with guns and radios should be perfectly capable of 'challenging' the PCs, if they actually *use* that gear.

I never said the "weirdness" was random. There would be a reasonable explanation ingame as to why it is possible. This is the Sixth World, there is a ton of "weirdness" going on. I use a medley of custom content and standard sourcebook material and it integrates really well into my games. I like to do a lot of bounty hunting missions so that gives ample avenues for custom content. Custom content doesn't have to apply to critters or mutants etc. It can apply to grunts soldiers etc. An alternative is to make the players go up against NPCs that are made from 400BP builds too for extra challenge.

I don't see why you find custom content to be disagreeable .

Back on the topic in question, it is okay to restrict the PCs freedoms a bit to bring them back on track. You shouldn't be afraid to add structure to the game.