So, session nine. I'm going to be a bit briefer here because honestly, I think it's just pretty much looking like Shadowrun isn't the game for me or this group. I'm quite sad about that, because I really like the setting and the ideas it has, but it feels like a horrible uphill struggle.

Part of the problem was that I got hugely stressed trying to prepare for this session. Since my previous attempt at challenging the PCs didn't go far enough, I decide to throw caution to the wind and just put whatever the hell I think will be a threat to them in, without regard for the "But would someone like that really be slumming it on the street?" issue that put me off on a lot of occasions before.

But then I had the problem of trying to make sure that the PCs actually found it, as having someone simply kicking in their apartment door seems a bit over the top, and nobody in their right mind is going to be sending them on a run at this point. So I try to think of a couple of threads that could get them into trouble. Because of Kaz's death, the assassination of the Yakuza accountants won't be happening, which means Grey-Wolf's compromise will go ahead and the Yaks will end up dealing Tempo in Seattle. However, Chikao and the Yakuza at the same time are decidedly mad at Grey-Wolf - because the Yaks, at Grey-Wolfs prompting, sent their assassins to ambush Kaz only to have the runners walk in on them and slaughter them with an oversummoned spirit. Chikao is still distinctly afraid that Grey-Wolf did the whole thing as a setup, and so both the Komun'Go and the Yakuza will be out for the runners' blood.

So one possibility was that Chikao, or one of his men, would call them posing as a Johnson and send them on the Flipside mission from part 2 of the book. The difference being that, in addition, he'd tip off Lone Star that something was going down at that bar and to send undercover. So hopefully the Flipside dealer gets killed, and the runners get hauled away for the murder which gets them out of the hair of the Yaks and the Komun'Go. I feel unsure about this, though - seems a bit odd that the Yakuza would really try to get Lone Star involved, and also it doesn't seem like it would play well as the PCs would probably surrender to the cops. A better bet would be to have some Yaks and Stand Over Men hanging around the bar ready to finish off the PCs after they've hit the Flipside dealer - but if they're going to do that why bother with the whole Flipside business to begin with? I just figure I can try to fudge that somehow.

Another possibility was that we still had an open thread of Dae not turning up at Caesar's party, although I figured news of her death would have reached Jacob, and possibly the mafia, by now. But that just meant trying to run yet another large group that I have even less information about which is already problematic. Also, an off-the-wall possibility was that I read, on one of the fora here, a mention that the shedim encounter in Ghost Cartels was "too hard" and therefore figured facing shedim would be a good challenge. So I thought that, perhaps, Dae would end up possessed - bad things happen when you dump bodies in Z-Zones, after all, and Dae's position would give them plenty of opportunity to stir up gang troubles and generally cause a lot of war and death and other things shedim like. (Honestly I was starting to wonder if ghouls and/or shedim would just follow the Death Truck around looking for their next fix, but I passed on that one..)

Oh, incidentally, another big hassle. Based on the stats in Ghost Cartels, Shedim aren't Immune to Normal Weapons. In order to find out that in fact they are, I had to cross-reference shedim into Street Magic, then refer to the Possession power, then refer to a sidebar with extra details on how possession works. So it was in a different, and optional, book buried in a description of one sub-power of the shedim, just to save them printing four extra words on the character sheet in GC. This is another thing that stresses me out about this game. There are way too many little gotchas in the rules of this kind. What becomes really frustrating though is that it's a jekyll-and-hyde thing - there's plenty of complicated rules for resolution but because of the huge degree of freedom the player characters have, you end up having to eyeball critical stats which basically makes all those rules meaningless when they quickly come down to "roll 10 dice and see how it turns out".

Still - Chikao acting as a Johnson was the only immediate handle I had on a mission for the runners, and the shedim thing might come up later - but it was hardly going to make its first priority to go and fight the runners who killed its host before, so that wouldn't grab the PCs. As it turned out, though, I didn't need it. This is another big stressor. Ideally the runners will take their own actions and drive the plot forward - that's great if that happens - but I also have to have missions and things ready for them, because it can't be guaranteed that the whole table won't just go quiet and the game stall at some point. So I have to prepare multiple, complex encounters many of which will not be used because they are "just in case".

So.. the session began with the runners looting the guns from the Yakuza assassins they killed at the end of the previous session. Caine's player had redone his character - as he mentioned on this forum - and while Zod's player hasn't posted here (I don't think), he also read the thread and had modified his character too to have more reasonable stats (ie, no more Str 1). The runners searched around to find the Yakuza men's cars, and Haxor hacked into them to try and disable their anti-theft systems in the hope they could sell the cars on to a chop shop somewhere. The runners then decided to go looking for Grey-Wolf, wanting revenge for the apparent set-up.

After a bit of discussion about whether we had eventually decided that they could track his location through his commcode, I eventually allow them to track him to a 50m radius as stated for the Track User action, which gets them that he is somewhere near the docks. In fact, I decide he's in a meeting with Chikao Inoue and Sacristan to smooth things over about the Yakuza set-up and to formally hand over the tempo operation. This'll help the runners get back on track and also make sure things aren't too easy: the meeting is taking place in the KondOrchid extraterritorial warehouse where the incoming tempo was being kept and everybody is on high alert. They've brought drones, mages with summoned spirits, a spider, the works. And here's where the real whole thing about the "jekyll-and-hyde" rule complexity comes in: technically I have to adlib all of this, but I basically just rule that most of the stats for high-end things are around 5, and just resort to rolling 10d whenever I'm not sure. Now, I normally like crunchy rules systems but having it collapse like that takes a lot of the fun out of it for me.

So, Zod decides to rent a hotel room next to the docks from which he can have a window view of the docks, although all he can see is the two guards on the locked front gate and four cars parked inside the compound. Haxor decides to try hacking the security system of the docks to see if he can see anything on the security cameras. He manages to do this but finds no-one on the security cameras in the cabin offices by the docks; I suggest that the warehouse may have its own node, which he then goes after. He goes in for an admin account on the node, but on his second pass trips the node alert and gets the attention of the spider. The spider first tries to track him, but can't complete this before he completes the hack, so the spider runs Attack on him but misses. Haxor hits the spider with Black Hammer for a few boxes of stun, and the spider figures that the gloves are off and spends Edge to hit Haxor back with Black Hammer dealing 8 or so boxes of Stun. Haxor hits back again, not quite stunning the spider, and the spider decides to start a reboot on the node. Haxor hits him one more time, knocking him out and slightly damaging his brain, and then wants to halt the reboot - since he has an admin account it seems he should be able to do this, so I allow it.

He then proceeds to look through the security camera and sees Chikao and Grey-Wolf talking to each other in the middle of the room, surrounded by their own entourages of bodyguards and with drones roaming above. He also tries to access the shipping records for the warehouse, and finds out about large amounts of material moving in and out, although the goods have been given coded descriptions so it's not immediately clear what the items in question are. The team then decide that, since there do not appear to be any innocent people in the warehouse, Haxor will hack the four cars outside and program each one with an Agent that will cause it to crash or drive into the sea on command. He heads off to begin doing this, but at that point his camera feed picks up one of the guards pulling the unconscious spider's body out of the warehouse's observation office and..

.. and I suddenly realize we have a sodding siege. Thee is no way the runners are going into the warehouse, but there is no way the people inside will come out while they know they're under threat. They certainly won't trust their GridGuides after knowing a hacker is on the loose. The runners basically just say "well, we'll sit and wait for them to come out". Apparently we are deadlocked.

But the guys inside aren't just passive, right? One of the mages inside the warehouse casts Detect Enemies. Now, Haxor is working from a Rigger Cocoon in the truck a few blocks away - but the Detect Enemies does catch Zod, who blows his Willpower resistance and shows up in the hotel room. A moment later, he's engulfed by a fire spirit send by the mage (I used the FBI mage's stats). He survives the first round of fire damage, then shoots the spirit and destroys it; at 5 force even 10 armor isn't likely to deal with an assault rifle shot. Again I wasn't sure about if this was legal or not - the rules state that somebody engulfed can't "move", and in most tactical RPGs I know, "move" is a formal term which means moving between squares or over distance, not referring to the arm motions necessary to fire a gun.

So, yes, we left it there (in part because Caine's player wanted to leave). But it's just getting to me at this point. I just don't think I can handle the thing where the player have huge amounts of freedom but at the same time the system is so complicated and depends on the precise geographic properties of all the areas people are in. I'm a bit sad about it, since I like crunchy rules and I like the idea of the players having freedom, but trying to run it is just making my head explode. And challenging the players, ok, I can prepare situations, but unless I do suddenly rule that somebody's found out where they are and ambushes them, then the runners will just sidestep going to the challenging situation. And combine that with the fact that if they _are_ ambushed, the "no defence possible" rule means it'll likely be a washout rather than a challenge.. I just don't know where I can do it, and I don't know to what extent I can carry on handling running a game that's giving me so much pre-game stress trying to work out what the heck I can do.

So. Yea. I haven't decided absolutely to drop Shadowrun yet but it's getting to be a strong possibility because of all these issues and confusion. Is there any way to give the runners challenges they won't just avoid, without having them ambushed unfairly? Is there any way to prevent extensive eyeballing collapsing the rules? Is there a good way of putting some character advancement back into the game?

There is no such thing as an unfair ambush. As long as there's no ass pull involved.

Yay, a new episode! My favorite reality show.

I like how you always err on the side of player power. I'd assume they have to fight off the Engulf before doing anything, for example.

It seems like most of your frustration is simply not knowing all the rules. That's a tough one to fix easily.

Ok, I'm going to repeat a few things here I have last said to my group's current GM.

First of all: stop stressing! This is a game you're talking! It's about having fun. About you guys getting together and doing just that. And from what I've heard from the players in your group who are active here, they are. That's a mission accomplished. Things don't have to run perfect. You don't have to have all the rules memorised, and everything working exactly as RAW dictates it should. You don't have to play the module like it's written, sticking strictly to that and feeling bound by what it does and does not list. Make stuff up! Eyeball things! As a GM, that's your job. You know this. Have the world keep some verisimillitude, while keeping the fun in by keeping the game going. Keep the world running like you think it should. Like your (you and the rest of the group's) story dictates it should. Deal with rules questions out of game. After the session has ended, while people are out getting pizza, whatever. When you don't know something, make it clear that you don't know how to handle it by RAW, and that you're just stating it works a certain way until you do. No one will mind one bit. In the end, rules are a tool, not a constraint, not an obligation.

That said, do realise what you've gotten into.
You've decided to run a published campaign meant for more advanced characters. You've a bunch of characters on your hands who have been for the most part hyperspecialised out of their noses.
You're a new group, with new players and a new GM. All of you are only just getting familiar with the system, the rules, the setting.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to spot the dissonance there. Problems were foreseeable from the get go.

I would definitely iterate the advice to park this campaign by the wayside for a bit and have the players generate some characters through karmagen. Possibly don't go for the full 750, and set a fresh-out-of-chargen dicepool cap. Play these through a simple run, or two, or three, devoid of any tie ins to bigger schemes at hand and whatnot. Simple scenarios. Tailor them to have specific events that will necessitate a grasp of a single part of the rules. Have an alley shootout, a melee, a vehicle combat, some hacking, some shadowing, some getting around undetected, some arcane detectiving, etc. Whatever you don't know about as much as you should yet. See some gangs, some corps, some police, some high living, some low living. And not all of it in one go either. Look the rules regarding those situations up before the session.
Read those core books. SR4A, Street Magic, Unwired, even Runners Companion. Back to front. Don't attempt to memorise them, just read. Soak up that stuff, that you may hear a faint chime of recognition when something arises, and look up what was up with it in a speedy fashion.

Yes, it is a tough game to get into. There are a lot of rules, of which a lot are strewn throughout the books in seemingly random places. But using those rules will get you acquainted with them, little bits at a time. And the acquaintance will make you see the bigger picture, give you the insight to ad lib things without feeling like everything's disintegrating. And when you still feel you're missing things: ask them here like you're doing. We don't mind answering questions you don't mind asking.

But most of all: don't be afraid. You're with friends. You might muck things up now and again, but you're not the sole one responsible for their fun. And if they wouldn't be having fun, they wouldn't be showing up every week.
And really, from where I'm sitting, you're doing great. You're willing to learn. You're showing a massive drive to perform, to entertain. Your players are saying they trust you to handle things the right way. They're having fun, or at least the vocal ones are.

That track you're on: keep it. You're finding your freedoms, while finding stuff out in the meantime. All the while having to ad lib less and less, as comprehension sets in. Just remember to keep on going forward.
Now just for you to find that same happy spot.

I think the biggest problem is that you seem to require a less ambiguous system. SR4 has a lot of crunch, but there are still lots of areas where GMs are supposed to wing it. You were on the right tack with the meet, when you were using dice pools instead of worrying about every last stat. And I still maintain that using a published adventure that doesn't fit the group's style is not going to work as well as going with the flow and running a game that suits everyone's playstyle better (although it sounds like your players are trying to adapt, and doing a surprisingly decent job of it - a lot more thinking and planning, and munchkin characters re-done to be more balanced).

Also, while they may have complained about things being too easy, you're going about it the wrong way by trying to match them with stats. Shadowrun is a game of glass cannons, where combat is incredibly lethal, and where tactics and lateral thinking can (and should) completely circumvent obstacles. So if you worry about nothing but the "level" of the opposition, you will be frustrated. This is a game where the same enemy can either take out the entire group, be taken out by them just as easily, or be avoided because the PCs did something unexpected.

Challenge them with how the world reacts to them, with how their reputation rises and falls, with the enemies and allies that they make, with how they interact with all of the people around them. This isn't a first-person shooter - don't just go from set-piece to set-piece conflict. Have them go to a bar to unwind, or have the grateful Johnson give them front-row tickets to watch the Mariners get beat by the Portland Lords, or introduce a potential love interest to one of the PCs. Immerse them in a living, breathing world, and give them a stake in it. Let the NPCs react logically, and let the balance, while it still needs some tweaking from you, take care of itself more.

The players were also saying that it's a game and I shouldn't stress out, and that's OK. It's just there's two horrible problems I fear happening with "winging it":

a) everything going quiet and nobody knowing what they're meant to do;
b) what I call being "pinned down" - having to answer a long series of detail questions about an area, and having to pick through them in an incredibly paranoid way because the slightest error can trash or trivialize an entire encounter. It might only take 1m of range to make the difference between "tense firefight" and "we hose them down because we're out of their range but they're in ours".

I don't mind too much SR being an ambiguous system, but I don't like the idea of PCs getting killed because an ambiguity ended up being resolved the wrong way. So if there's going to be a big, balls-to-the-wall challenge with lives on the line, there has to be as little ambiguity as possible in that, which is why I wanted to prepare everything if I was going to make things harder.

Every system has some ambiguity in it. You're job as the Game Master is to be the arbitrator of those ambiguities. Have a serious conversation with your Players. Explain where you've seen some gaps, and what your plan is to change it. Don't be afraid to take some suggestions-but I'd be willing to bet they want a GM. You're that cat. Drive the Bus, or get run over by it home skillet.

Opening shot: Based on the comment "near the end of my tether" in the title for this thread, the following responses will assume you are not enjoying running the game

So let someone else GM. Just because you think you aren't doing a good job at it doesn't mean someone else wouldn't do a better job.
Which is the point at which you should have put the books down and walked away. It's a game - NEVER get stressed out over a game
There's two sides to this: First, your runners wouldn't be slumming it in the streets being the hyper specialists they are. They should be doing high level hits on unsuspecting targets. Second, there's some pretty nasty stuff running around the Barrens as long as you're willing to step away from the script.
As others have said, one of your main failings is that, against all advice, you keep trying to stick to this published module intended for experienced SR GM's and experienced players who actually want to follow the story.
That's okay, even things that are "Immune to Normal Weapons" actually aren't... it's just hardened armor.
Yes, that along with "we'll make these rules over here for things your runners may only run into once in a campaign unnecessarily complex and somewhat arbitrary but these rules over here for things that could happen on just about any run we'll leave vague and incomplete" It's one of my major gripes.
This is not the games fault - it's yours for insisting on this module and theirs for not sticking to that modules "plot". In some games modules are little better than "choose your own adventure" books, SR modules are a bit more complex. They tend to give some of the hard details in some spots ("Read the following to the characters:" These guys have these specific stats) while giving you more of a general "sketch" of things in others and then relying on the GM and players to fill in the gaps. And I'll say it again "wrong module for a starting group"... try On the Run instead - it's geared towards first time players and GM's.

I also don't think you'd assume an assault rifle shot would insta-kill a Force 5 spirit or that all the "high level" NPC's only have 10 dice

If you're truly "winging it" then they aren't "meant" to do anything - it's up to them. Though honestly, your players have been winging it the whole time - you're the only one that seems concerned with that they're "meant" to do.
So only your players carry assault rifles? Really, the only reason your players have survived thus far, munchkin power aside, is your willingness to let them auto-win a lot of situations.
You're still stuck on this concept of "challenge = combat". We keep trying to explain, SR combat is lethal - it's ideally meant to be avoided if possible.

The hardest challenge I ever ran into in any RPG was in a game of Cyberpunk 2020 at GenCon, where we fought...

A locked steel warehouse door. Just couldn't get through the damned thing. Finally had a character climb up the wall, get through a window, and fall (Ungracefully) down a stack of crates, which came tumbling after her.

The GM (who is an old online friend) reminds me of this every so often...

You know, at least the session sounds like it went a lot better, conflict wise. 10 DP is still pretty low for high end opposition, but sounds about right for "competent unaugmented undrugged shooter" (Agi 3 , Autos 3, Spec 2, Smartlink 2) Throw some recoil comp on there and they're quite lethal. Assuming the ubiquitous AK, (cheaper than many pistols), your baseline average goon can throw lead that will threaten anyone within 150m or so, and non sammies out to 300.

Re: precise geographic location. Not all that essential. Really. How often are you on the precise 1m border? And are the PC's walking towards their targets with laser range finders and GoogleFoxMapWorld constantly pinging (actually, yes, if they have a smartgun...but not the point)? I mean, general range bands are there to be general, not a precise measurement of "at exactly 5m, you lose accuracy with a holdout." Real firefight involves lots of little movements to get a shot off, even when your "standing still" If its 1 or 2m that's making or breaking, ignore it.

The rolls for that F5 dying would be interesting. Its well within mathematical variances for two bursts from an Ares Alpha loaded with APDS, but the actual mechanics could be instructional about gunplay.

So, as everyone says, now it comes down to who gets the shot off, which is where lateral gming comes into play. Guess what? A siege ends when the side with more resources wins. So, its your players running against the clock, not the yak and rings. Because right now, the help call is going out. Drones are being diverted. Hackers are being flashed node addresses, and icon/link profiles of haxor, and being told to go root out whatever happened to their cars. The mage's are doing a nice big astral sweep to find the runner's mage.

It won't be instant. Things take time, and coordination. But if the players stand still for too long, playing the waiting game, the hammer will fall. Nows either the time for them to go balls out, or back out and try a different angle later.


P.S. from session start
Those cars had an ID and were broadcasting on the grid guide, and our favorite yak assassins had some matrix oversight (because hey, would you send 10 gun men to mow down a rings leader without a hacker on call?), the yak have been tracking your group's movement from the warehouse onwards. And probably asked your chop shop where they ended up exactly who came by and sold them. Asking implying the loss of small digits for bad answers.

Read this: Method´s thread on Adventure Design

You are already challenging the players and they do a good job of learning just what they can do besides just shooting. Note that you have a fresh group using magic + hacking. Be glad.

What do you understand by "avoiding a challenge"?


Next target: Grey-Wolf. Please refrain from trying to get the train back on the tracks. You have just put Inoue and Sacristan at a high risk of dying.

Don´t set up situations you can´t resolve fast enough. For a fresh SR GM, trying to keep close to the storyline of a published adventure with a group that has developed quite different goals than expected is very hard. You make things more challenging on yourself by setting up an assault on a clandestine meeting including complete security teams on both sides.

Have prepared stat sheets: Aaron´s Cheat Sheets. Look for the NPC record sheet, Grunts record sheet, Standby Squads. Now instead of ad-libbing a single pool (dp 10), adlib a fitting type of enemy, adding individual detail on the fly.


Prepare surveilance spot, hack surveilance system => good. The spider should have kept to the Black Hammer tactic once chosen.


Technically only Zod´s side of the building seems to be under siege, and your team ain´t large enough to cover all sides to keep the inside people from getting out. If everything else fails, the targets can also call for relief forces, either as KondOrchid (warehouse under attack), or Yakuza defensive action. Remember that you set this operation up. A more experienced team would have tried to hit Grey Wolf on the move, avoiding the warehouse challenge altogether.

Zod has ill intentions for Grey Wolf, but not the mage personally. Therefore Detect Enemies does not do a thing. That spell is widely overrated, as even guards are only detected once the guards have seen the team and do have ill intentions for a PC mage. And no, no attacking for those engulfed.


Stop trying to follow the storyline. The storyline is dead. Keep things simple. Don´t see combat as primary challenge. Due to it´s lethality, avoiding combat is usually the challenge. Try numerically superior weak enemies.

Next stop: Hiding from the Yakuza. Killing crooks is fine, but this is a large syndicate that likes to send messages. The Yak´s have MANY options: tracking via the matrix, legwork, sending other runners, sending gangs...


I suggest we do indeed set up SR bootcamp for you. During bootcamp, the PCs are expected to succeed if they have the tools of the trade. I would consider:
1) Getting in/on a building
a) social
b) hacking I think you´ve got that down.
c) physical

2) Fighting
a) stationary defenses
b) fighting by proxy
c) attacking

4) Loosing a tail

Well, this is what I hoped would happen to some extent - why I didn't balk at those over-the-top stat blocks in the first place. But I knew from the start that the players aren't interested in roleplaying hanging out at a bar, going to a sports event, or having relationships, just because it's so cringeworthy to know that we're basically just sitting around a table pretending to have colorful regular lives. Even if I asked them to play this kind of thing out, I don't think they'd care enough about it for it to matter to their characters - yes, I know that's the Juicer Problem writ large, but it's how things turn out. Going out and shooting things up or getting into gang wars, well, that's fine to play out because who wants to do that in real life?

As for how the world reacts to them in the terms of the things they do play, well, I've been trying to work out how that might happen in ways that are fun but it's kind of difficult. Their notoriety is at something like 12 by now, (so yea, PI is something like 4) although again I hit a problem with the mega specialization, as this is mostly the result of the other PCs actions, but its only real effect is to hose Faceman's player completely. If that doesn't come out in some kind of combat or conflict then it won't matter to the players unless I want to do the horrible, "whimper" campaign ending of saying they no longer have any sustainable contacts feeding them missions.

Well, players are meant to wing it, right? It's about giving them freedom. I've always thought that is GM I'm supposed to provide their interaction with the world, and that means as far as possible avoiding the situation where they suddenly find themselves walking through genericville on the way to fudgeton.



The PCs aren't the only ones who carry assault rifles, but most of their opposition are either explicitly statted as not doing so or it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Plus, we have PCs who, at Ex+Aug+Apt, are quite literally the best shot a metahuman can ever be, so shouldn't that mean they win stuff?



Sure, but if you play the setting as being that people are keen on avoiding combat, PCs can get auto-wins in many conflicts simply by threatening gunplay. Especially if they have a character who wins initiative and full-autos everyone in the first pass. That way, everyone else has to avoid pissing you off, for the same reason.

When it's going well, I'm quite enjoying running. I'm definitely not enjoying the stress-outs of having to chase potentially-critical rules through multiple books (having Immunity to Normal or not could easily turn an encounter around), have so many things prepared, and trying to wing things while at the same time making them challenging but not impossible. That's the big problem I have with winging t, a lot of the time - if I wing stats for the opposition and the opposition turn out to win and kill the PCs, how do I know I didn't just drop a meteor on them? How do the players know?



I don't mind if someone else wants to GM. Dawg's player (Gazzor) I generally consider a better GM than me, but he ran our D&D4e campaign that lasted for several months before this and specifically wanted to take a break. (It also had exactly the same problem - nothing was a challenge or engaging except very rare occasions which usually came up by accident. But the D&D4e system is pretty disasterous for that, as noted by the huge surge of errata that appeared once the designers actually got to meet players.)



A "high level hit on an unsuspecting target"? That doesn't sound challenging at all - if they are, as you say, unsuspecting.



We did On The Run in the first few sessions I posted on this thread - some parts of it went a little better but not much more so. And I'm not really keeping the players on the plot; I'm just clear that the plot is going on around the runners, thus the different effects they've had on it. If they don't want to follow the plot they don't have to but of course I'd much prefer it if they do, because if I have to "wing" opposition for them when they tried to do something unexpected, I hit the problem of how to make that a fair challenge while winging it. Chess is only a fair game because you can see all the pieces on the board at the start, if I am winging a challenge and throw in an extra queen halfway through then how's it a reasonable challenge anymore? If I win with my extra queen, mightn't the players end up thinking that, if I had lost, I would have just produced a second extra queen?

"The PCs aren't the only ones who carry assault rifles, but most of their opposition are either explicitly statted as not doing so or it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Plus, we have PCs who, at Ex+Aug+Apt, are quite literally the best shot a metahuman can ever be, so shouldn't that mean they win stuff? "

No. It means they win exchanges of fire down blank alleys with unthinking targets trying to do the exact same thing back in perfect order. A DP 14, 3 IP, Base init 8 + 8d6Hits shooter (less than 70k in ware, gear, and training) who gets the drop on Zod will still kill him. Being an olympic grade marksman does not make you an olympic grade operator. Really, given an open block of jungle , urban or otherwise, would you bet on the Men's Pistol Gold Medal, or your average SWAT member?

The Ork with the Panther Assault Cannon.

...there is that option, yes...though he could still be shot in the back form any of the buildings or somesuch.

… Except Shadowrun isn't a fair game. You're supposed to avoid drawing the attention of the Queens (hell, the Knights).

I usually try to avoid the attention of the pawns, even.

This is just a thought, but why don't you throw in some custom content in there? Give them a real challenge that isn't in the sourcebooks. For instance, I am setting my players up to go against a firebender adept (a way I developed, inspired from Avatar the Last Air Bender series). Fire damage halves impact armor and is quite nasty. Or use an enemy that causes electric damage. Use environmental effects to shape the battlefield.

In the future I am having them go up against a mutated sasquatch that has a ton of critter powers that will pose a real challenge to my players. I put them against enemies that can't be killed with just "BANG BANG you're dead".

Give enemies weaknesses that are not in the players standard handbook for fighting.

It seems to me that you are pulling your punches and not unleashing all of your powers as a GM. You have to be willing to break the rules when creating custom content and you know what, it is okay. My players know by now once they faced that Magneto Magician that they can't mess around with what I throw at them because it will be anything but a walk in the park. My suggestion to you is go for the jugular, not to kill but to put the fear of god into their characters. Nothing makes players smarter than a near TPK.

Trust me on this, once you give them a true challenge by putting custom content into the game you will become more confident in your abilities. A word of advice, it is always hard when you are just starting out as a GM. You always think the worst of yourself because you are inexperienced. You have to keep your chin up because often times you are doing better than you think you are. GMs are creatures that beat up on themselves a lot when they first start. Throwing all of your punches is a good way to boost confidence and give you the balls to say no.

Um. No. It is rarely good practice to throw truly random weirdness at the players, *unless* they could reasonably expect such a thing to be possible. Dudes with guns and radios should be perfectly capable of 'challenging' the PCs, if they actually *use* that gear.

And even if you do throw random wierdness, it's not a good idea to throw them at new players, so they can get a feel for what is normal-ish in the SR world first.

I never said the "weirdness" was random. There would be a reasonable explanation ingame as to why it is possible. This is the Sixth World, there is a ton of "weirdness" going on. I use a medley of custom content and standard sourcebook material and it integrates really well into my games. I like to do a lot of bounty hunting missions so that gives ample avenues for custom content. Custom content doesn't have to apply to critters or mutants etc. It can apply to grunts soldiers etc. An alternative is to make the players go up against NPCs that are made from 400BP builds too for extra challenge.

I don't see why you find custom content to be disagreeable .

Back on the topic in question, it is okay to restrict the PCs freedoms a bit to bring them back on track. You shouldn't be afraid to add structure to the game.

You gave examples of random weirdness. I didn't say anything about 'custom content' in general. I think it's a mistake to burden hyphz with Super-Sasquatch and anime mages at this juncture, that's all.

Oh sorry, I misunderstood your statement. I was just giving examples of what was going on in my campaign, my players are eliminating the top ten criminals/wanted beasts in the city of Las Vegas right now so I have that on my mind I suppose. You are right though, those were bad examples. A better one would be to have them go up against a "prime runner" (500BP build) and a couple of 400BP build NPCs. That will give them a more realistic challenge for their experience. One reason I dislike using example mooks in the handbooks is they are so darn easy to kill. Using an NPC built after a player character standard is much more effective as a challenge. I actually recommend using Chummer, the chargen that is being developed in the Forum Project section of the Dumpshock. I use that to make my NPCs because it allows me to minmax better for some powerful challenges. It is wise to create charactersheets for standard 300BP -400BP mooks and just keep them on hand as default NPC challenges. If you want to PM me some of your NPC sheets I would be glad to help you out on how to improve them.

Also, use environmental battlefield shapers like fire, building collapse, etc. That can make your players have to come up with a strategy to win battles. Have NPCs use flash bangs, flashpacks, grenades and stuff and maybe fudge the rules a bit on where they go within reason. I would make it so the grenades don't go back on the throwers, but they can still miss their target. I recommend just using the thrown skill plus agility to see if they hit and the number of net hits determines how much damage the PCs take. Grenades are a great way to give PCs a reason to use cover or not to stay behind cover very long.

Car chases are pretty fun to because there can be a lot of shenaniganry involved in that and it is kind of exciting when you players do daring feats inside a vehicle. Losing tails was mentioned earlier, that is a pretty good idea as well.

Also, you could penalize the players because they have such a high notoriety. Some of their contacts might not want to associate with them because there is just too much heat on them. Maybe that will send a message that they need to use more discretion.

You could add more flavor to the game by having contacts ask favors in return for information the players want.

Oh and here is a golden fail-safe for when the PCs are about to wipe the floor with a complicated combat encounter that you thought would pose a challenge and last longer so listen up. Just give the NPCs more health, the players won't notice, trust me. Virtually all GMs have done that in their career and it is nothing to be ashamed of or avoid. Sometimes you just underestimate your players when planning and you need to beef up some of your NPCs to still maintain your challenge level. Generally a combat encounter isn't satisfying if it goes to fast. That is where the GM godhand comes into play. Some people might disagree with this, but I found when I first started out that it gave me some confidence in myself. And what you need my friend is confidence. Don't be so hard on yourself. As I said before you are probably doing better than you give yourself credit for.

Well let's look at the players actions as a whole from a story point of view... they are following the trail of everyone involved in this run and systematically knocking them all off; seemingly because they don't "approve" of the criminal activity. So run with that - if they want to play vigilantes instead of runners gear your story line in that direction.

Don't worry about finding them another fixer, if they want to go this way (assuming they live to get out of this situation, and you've made it pretty clear they simply will) they'll need to hit the streets and get info out of people to carry on this private "war against crime". It seems it would be pretty fitting to let them paint the van black with a red stripe and have them get hired by "innocent" folks who are getting oppressed by some criminal element or another.

I've had horrible problems with these in the past. I remember running a tail / car chase in a Conspiracy X game we played several years ago. What inevitably happens is that the players immediately say "we don't go anywhere, we drive around randomly until we lose the tail" so that a) the chase is now a time stop until the PCs win, and b) the GM is pressurised to improv an entire city map. Even if there's a time limit on the journey, my experience has been that most PCs will rather let the time run out than choose to lead the tail to their destination, if only because they'd rather fail because the dice rolled badly than make a conscious decision to give up.

It's not the result of a chase that matters. It's *having a chase*. Everything's boring if you go, 'okay, roll the dice to see if you win'.

But that's what tends to have to happen in a car chase, because the environment is speeding by so fast. The GM isn't going to be able to describe the whole city without taking away any impression of speed, which usually means they're stuck coming up with random car obstacles in sequence. I mean, it might work in FATE3 but I don't know what else.

Hmm, Shadowrun in FATE3. I'd like to see that, now I think of it.

Actually I discovered I was incorrect after I read through vehicle combat (we haven't done much)... according to RAW, a high speed chase doesn't require any map at all. It's's all "abstracted" down to a series of actions and/or Chase Stunts with associated rolls:

So the map they're racing around, outside influences, etc are pretty much all ignored to get on with the game.

I know I tend to fall into that description. Especially in that other game, as I tend to like to come up with ubsurd ways of doing things. In SR, my characters generally are more balanced, but with a street ninja (no ware, some social skills, low tech, primarily combat skills, mundane), a hacker-mage, and an ex-military metal mage from China under my belt, I think the ubsrdity keeps coming.

Sure, but I'm assuming they notice the tail here. If they don't notice the tail there will be no play of any attempt to lose them and when they arrive at their destination the PCs will just be surprised by some random people they won't expecting. Which isn't really a great way for it to turn out because, for all the _players_ know, I just dropped those random people there out of nowhere. This is the trick about many of the challenges I'm thinking through: I want them to be fair and to be seen to be fair.



Oh, sure, they won't automatically lose the tail just by saying that. But the point is that the moment the players have said "we won't go anywhere important while the tail is on", essentially that means that game time is going to stop at this car journey until they do lose the tail. There's no way the tail will win the conflict and find out where the PCs are going because the PCs will always insist they aren't going anywhere while the tail is there. If the tail sticks to them like glue and doesn't escalate they will just insist they are driving around for as long as it takes for their rolls to turn out lucky.



I am a bit nervous about improv-ing in general, it's true, but I am more nervous of it when I have to at the same time try to come up with interesting challenges in a complicated rules system where even a slight slip of the tongue could create an auto-win or a no-win for the players.

Practice makes perfect home skillet. No one expects you to make something Heat your first time out. The goal should be to improve after each game.

This mindset is your problem, I think, more than anything else. If you send a tail after them, your assumption is that they'll see it. Once they see it, your assumption is that they'll drive in circles until the GM gives up and they lose the tail. Why wouldn't the tail escalate and turn it into a proper chase scene? Why is there only one tail? Why isn't there a nearly-invisible drone floating around overhead, spying on them, too, with the tail just a distraction to get it into place? Why is your assumption that the PCs will get a lucky roll and lose the tail, and not that the NPCs will get a lucky roll and accomplish, well, anything?

I'm sorry that you and your buddies don't seem to be having a great time. Or, at least, I'm sorry that you're stressing about it enough to give that impression (just in case it's not quite so). It's a game, and games are supposed to be fun, not something to be stressed over. I hope you guys can smooth stuff over, kick back, and have a good time in The Sixth World...but I think you've just got a weird attitude towards conflict and challenge, and I'm not sure what can be done about that.

No, no, that's not it. If I send a tail after them, my assumption is that they'll see it, because if they don't see it then it doesn't add anything to the game. There won't be a chase scene. They won't try to lose it. Their enemies will end up finding out where they are, which could cause more bad stuff to happen to them later, but from the players' point of view that will be indistinguishable from me just making bad stuff happen to them out of the blue.



Well, the thing about multiple tails and the drone are good ideas but again, from my point of view I'd avoid them because they don't really add anything. Take the invisible drone example. What will happen from the players' point of view is that they will make a lot of effort to lose the visible tail, get to where they're going, and then suffer the consequences of having been followed anyway. They'll probably be left with the impression that their being followed was predetermined from the beginning and the whole business of losing the tail was a waste of time. If I say, "Well, there was actually an invisible drone following you!", well, who's to say that if the mage had checked the astral the same thing wouldn't have happened except I'd be saying "well, there was actually a tracking device on your car all along!". That's the thing - I want the challenges to be fair and to be seen to be fair.

But as for "why wouldn't the tail escalate" - well, I've had to have cases where I couldn't go further with that. The usual reason is "because they want to know where they are going, not to catch them" given that actually catching them would most likely result in them all dying in front of a smoking assault rifle.



Well, I'm stressed over the improv thing mostly, but I've calmed down a bit since then (it was also a very stressful week at work). I don't think my attitude towards conflict and challenge is odd, I just feel that it should be interesting and should not have a predetermined conclusion. Saying "you should make it harder if your PCs are good" is fine but there's a fine line between actually doing that and going in with the predetermined conclusion "the PCs suffer for X rounds but eventually win".

Well sometimes stuff does just come out of the blue. It's called surprise, Shot. That said a way to deal with missed "hints" is pretty easy. Few people operate in total secrecy, and often as not there are operational security glitches-some of them intentional. Have the word get back to them. People are following you. People are watching you. Your names are popping up. People are asking questions. The longer they ignore it the more it stacks up.

Sure, but if I want to surprise the players, I can just have anyone randomly ambush them any time I like.

Unfair? Yes. But having the players tailed and then ambushed will appear just the same if they didn't notice the tail.

And that is your problem, how? Sometimes life is unfair. Sometimes, if you do something bad, someone will find you, it doesn't matter how they do. Besides, the tail could be grunts for someoen else, say a still living Kaz, or Grey-wolf's goons sent to spy on the team. That gives Grey-Wolf all the same information, without having to put him in danger, from a logical standpoint.

That's not thing, and I think if you think about it I think it will be clear.

On the hand you have no clues at all, and things just happen. If you follow the approach I suggest there will be subtle clues. every good soup needs to simmer.



Not if you handle it right. Look man I get you have some sort of super sized sense of fair play that is clearly not shared by your players, but no one is saying be a dick. I'm saying piece it together, and show it to them. Subtle at first, and then gradually crank it up. Spoon feed them.

If you don't take charge of your game someone else will.

Because the players won't feel like their actions matter if they get ambushed out of the blue whenever I need them to be?

Well, um, isn't that OK? If the players are going to take charge of the game aren't they going to lead it in a direction they enjoy? Why would they do anything else?

Then why do they need a GM? Why are you there at all? Guiding is one thing. Steam rolling you, to the point where you sound pretty miserable int he tone of your posts? That says part of the compact is broke to me. The agreement is everyone has fun.

I think you're afraid if you challenge them they'll quit. My players favorite games are the ones they aren't quite sure they'll live through. Obviously you need to find your own balance to get the most fun out of your game-but if the tone of your posts heavily imply to me you're having problems driving the bus.

The point is that their actions could have mattered. They could have anticipated things about he game world, and taken steps to deal with them. If they failed to do so, the world has to respond appropriately. That's what makes it fun. It's not Schrödinger's Car Bomb to play in a wide-open world.

I admit that playing against a non-stupid world is frustrating if the PCs are *stupid*. It's like playing a FPS online with experts. However, the goal is to not *be* bad at life. The goal is to cleverly (and yes, cinematically) interact with the vibrant world. And to not give up because you got sniped again. Instead, learn the map and crouch already.

The players aren't steamrolling me, they're fine with facilitating things. But it's not that "if I challenge them they'll quit", it's that if I'm going to give them a challenge then the sides have to be decided in advance and fixed then, and nobody seems to be giving me that. Instead everything is expected to be fluid so presumably there's some grand agenda I'm supposed to be pursuing in secret which I just don't like the idea of.

Hmm. Then I am clearly misreading the tone of your posts.



Uhm I'm not sure where secret agenda came into play here, but clearly we're not communicating. You clearly are either not understanding what I and some others are saying;, refusing to listen; completely oblivious or some combination of that and something I've missed.

Being the Game master means that yes, sometimes, you do keep some secrets. The behind the curtains stuff. This isn't a malignant act.Imagine a magician not explaining his tricks step by step as he performs them? Standard operating procedure right? In some ways being a GM is the same thing.

The game is supposed to be challenging. It's supposed to be a give and take. You seem, to me, to be pretty confused about that part of it. Frankly I'm so frustrated that from here on out I'm going to cut bait-because clearly you and I just can't seem to communicate with each other in a meaningful way.

The grand secret agenda is "using players' stupidity against them". When they think they played the opposition to do one thing, suddenly it turns out the opposition figured out something's fishy halfway through the PC's plan. Because there was something they haven't thought of. Something they underestimated.

Hyphz, your comment about surprising your players makes me think that either your players don't trust you or you're afraid they won't. If they botch a stealth roll and get ambushed, that's not a big deal, and it shouldn't be. Your players should trust you that there are good and valid reasons for events happening in the game. If you need to hand a player a note telling him something bad just happened, just have a better reason than "your power armor self-destruct malfunctioned." (Granted, that is an example from a bad Rifts GM.) Good players will trust that it's part of the story and roll with it.

Just FYI, I didn't say "invisible drone," I meant one of any number of drones that are nearly invisible; small enough to be difficult to see, or flying high enough to be difficult to see, or ubiquitous enough to be difficult to notice, or all three at once.

That said, however, I still think there's a fundamental disconnect between your GMing style and mine:

Who cares about what's seen to be fair? You're the GM, and they're playing in one of gaming's most paranoid, dystopic, lopsided, unfair universes. If you, as GM, know that they've got a Watcher spirit on their ass, it's not your fault the players don't check for it. If you know about a tracking device plausibly planted on their car or an RFID tag in stuff they just looted, if you know about the astral signature their mage left behind or the ritual-worthy sample they dropped, if you know about the hotshot hacker the NPCs have access to or the spy drone tailing your players...that's enough. Your players might ask you after an awesome ambush scene that leaves them on the edge of their seat, or one of them might pipe up over a Mt. Dew at the end of the game, or something, and then it's up to you to tell them (or not), or maybe you have a big reveal when a low-loyalty contact turns on them, or when an appropriate party member finds a tracking device, confronts an astral spy, or whatever. They might find out IC or OOC, eventually, but until then?

Screw "seen to be fair." You need to be concerned with the verisimilitude of NPC actions, and with whether or not they add fun to the game. That's it, man. Not the appearance of fairness. They shouldn't appear to be fair, in fact, because that's not what the underdog-game-of-being-paranoid-professional-criminals-who-operate-in-society's-forgotten-cracks is all about. Half of the point of the setting is that the Powers That Be dwarf your average player character, and the player characters only survive by making themselves useful to them.

That your players approach Shadowrun with the expectation that things appear to be fair, or that you persist in that belief yourself, really continues to make me think there's something about the setting and the game that just doesn't quite jibe with you guys.