The ninth session.., .. near the end of my tether Options

[DMiller]

<snip>
Who cares about what's seen to be fair? You're the GM, and they're playing in one of gaming's most paranoid, dystopic, lopsided, unfair universes. If you, as GM, know that they've got a Watcher spirit on their ass, it's not your fault the players don't check for it. If you know about a tracking device plausibly planted on their car or an RFID tag in stuff they just looted, if you know about the astral signature their mage left behind or the ritual-worthy sample they dropped, if you know about the hotshot hacker the NPCs have access to or the spy drone tailing your players...that's enough. Your players might ask you after an awesome ambush scene that leaves them on the edge of their seat, or one of them might pipe up over a Mt. Dew at the end of the game, or something, and then it's up to you to tell them (or not), or maybe you have a big reveal when a low-loyalty contact turns on them, or when an appropriate party member finds a tracking device, confronts an astral spy, or whatever. They might find out IC or OOC, eventually, but until then?

Screw "seen to be fair." You need to be concerned with the verisimilitude of NPC actions, and with whether or not they add fun to the game. That's it, man. Not the appearance of fairness. They shouldn't appear to be fair, in fact, because that's not what the underdog-game-of-being-paranoid-professional-criminals-who-operate-in-society's-forgotten-cracks is all about. Half of the point of the setting is that the Powers That Be dwarf your average player character, and the player characters only survive by making themselves useful to them.

That your players approach Shadowrun with the expectation that things appear to be fair, or that you persist in that belief yourself, really continues to make me think there's something about the setting and the game that just doesn't quite jibe with you guys.

+1

[edit]
This happened to our team. We set up an ambush which went very well, at the tail end of our assault we were ambushed by a 3rd party. After all was said and done I lamented to the GM about omniscient opponents, he simply stated that they were not omniscient only well funded with high-flying drones. He also pointed out that our ambush was set up from roof-tops. My reply was “OH! I see, okay.” All is well, and we as players and our characters learned a valuable lesson about ambushing.
[/edit]
-D

[Manunancy]

Sure, but if I want to surprise the players, I can just have anyone randomly ambush them any time I like.

Unfair? Yes. But having the players tailed and then ambushed will appear just the same if they didn't notice the tail.

I partly agree - an ambush popping out the blue when you as a GM can't tell how the bad guys were able to locate the PCs and why they decided to off them is bad. But if you, the GM, have a good notion of why the ambush was decided (well, that table shouldn't wonder much about the 'why' part) and how it was planned and the PC's position was tracked, it's fair, wether the PCs manage to figure out that 'how' or not. You don't have to serve the answer to them on a platter if they don't make even a token effort to poke at it, but if they make at least a brainstorming session you may give hints to the characters who have relevant skills.

Wether it's a tracer on their car, a hacker scanning their car's id and tracking it through gridguide, a furtive drone flying over, a spirit tailing them in the astral or good legwork pointing their hideout and a team waiting there doesn't matter much, what matters is that if the players look into the matter they can tell 'that's how they managed to find us'. If you have the 'how' in mind you can also define what test are need to spot the trail and depending on the character's actions and attitude wether they get those tests or not.

example : say one PC is passed out from injuries, another is patching him up in the back of car, the driver drives and the last one is busy cleaning up his gun, topping the clips and generaly buried in his hardware, they won't be able to spot an astral trail. And only the driver will have a shoot at spotting a physical trail.

[Midas]

"Winging it" is kindof a standard mo for Shadowrunning GMing. Take your standard run to break into Corp X and steal a prototype McGuffin. You plan out the outer defences, guard patrol routes and times, defences for the building itself, floor plans, info on the magical and matrix security, think of info the PCs can gain through legwork and resultant loopholes they can exploit etc etc, and then they decide they are going in via the sewers which you haven't written up at all. That's the way it is, so be prepared to be flexible and think on your feet.

As to the current situation, your PCs are about to realize why they should always hit the target quick and get the hell outta dodge. The enemy mage, having not had a report back from his fire spirit might send something else in to find out what is going on/neutralize the threat, or even astrally project himself (with spirit backup) to assess things in person. (Forget the poster who said Detect Enemies shouldn't work, will come to that next post).

The mage will have alerted all present as to the location of the enemy, so they will have called their respective people to come and take the threat out asap. Now you have to decide if the factions in the warehouse are going to sit tight for backup to arrive or try and break their way out. I know which option sounds more exciting to me.

So they wake up the spider with first aid and/or stim patches and when he is back to coherence it is time to send out the drones, perhaps through a back door out of sight from the enemy whose location they know (Zod) if at all possible. The spider might start up the cars to bring them around, but will probably reboot their systems and then delete all admin accounts except their own first. The bodyguards start deploying outside the back door, spreading out and forming a perimeter looking out for anything moving. The mage might give astral oversight to this operation. And then, when hopefully the guns start blazing, the backup arrives tires screeching and suddenly the PCs are hopelessly outnumbered.

If they hang around, don't pull your punches and let the chips fall where they may. If the PCs do belatedly decide to get the hell out, let them make a dramatic and painful escape, then when they are back whereever licking their wounds have a trusted fixer call and let them know they have two major criminal organizations out for their blood ...

[Midas]

Zod has ill intentions for Grey Wolf, but not the mage personally. Therefore Detect Enemies does not do a thing. That spell is widely overrated, as even guards are only detected once the guards have seen the team and do have ill intentions for a PC mage. And no, no attacking for those engulfed.

Given Zod and the rest of the team's mindset, I would assume that they have it in for everyone in the warehouse, or at the very least everyone on Grey Wolf's side. This means it could be strongly argued that Detect Enemies would work just fine in this case.

Case in point, Haxor wasn't just trying to booby trap Grey Wolf's car but all of them. I would bet money that if domeone came busting out of the warehouse in plain sight of Zod, he'd almost certainly be cut down where he stood ...

[Manunancy]

considerign the wording in the rules (The spell can detect targets preparing an ambush or other surprise attack.) - which is exactly what Zod has in mind - I'd say it should work. Even if Grey wolf is the main target, anything that breathes in the warehouse is likely to be shot on sight, including the hypothetical simpleton dusting the shelves.

One example I'd use : say the mage is about to enter a dark alley and checks with 'detect ennemies'. In the alley is a junkie who thinks konking the next passerby on the head with a lead pipe would be a good way to get the money for his fix. Will the junkie register (1) immediately or (2) only once he notices the mage coming, actively thinking of the mage as a target ?

note that in both cases the attacker isn't yet aware of the presence of his target but said target would be attacked the instant the attacker notices it.

[hyphz]

I partly agree - an ambush popping out the blue when you as a GM can't tell how the bad guys were able to locate the PCs and why they decided to off them is bad. But if you, the GM, have a good notion of why the ambush was decided (well, that table shouldn't wonder much about the 'why' part) and how it was planned and the PC's position was tracked, it's fair, wether the PCs manage to figure out that 'how' or not. You don't have to serve the answer to them on a platter if they don't make even a token effort to poke at it, but if they make at least a brainstorming session you may give hints to the characters who have relevant skills.

I can see where you're coming from, but it still sticks in my craw that the experience the players will have of the ambush is the same either way. Plus, of course, there's the nightmare scenario where it turns out there's something in the system I've forgotten and when the PCs start investigating, they find out the thing they needed to remind me that the ambush wouldn't have actually worked at all...

The other thing is that you list a lot of different options which is good but it seems to be that in SR there are so many options that it's almost impossible for the PCs to cover their bases. This is another thing that bothers me about improvising - unless I actually draw a detailed map and write a 1,000 word essay describing a location, chances are there are going to be loopholes in what I didn't describe by some means or other.

[Seriously Mike]

Plus, of course, there's the nightmare scenario where it turns out there's something in the system I've forgotten and when the PCs start investigating, they find out the thing they needed to remind me that the ambush wouldn't have actually worked at all...

Oh, I have advice for that one:
Tell players to STFU. Excess rules-lawyering is the bane of many systems, especially D&D (see: Pun-Pun the godlike kobold). "GTFO with that BS" should be the proper GM's answer in such cases.

[bustedkarma]

I really want to see you send your players directly to either Kowloon, OR the Ghost Cartel HQ down in the steamy jungle. If waxing "bad guys" is their MO, give them a shot at the title, complete with either a handful of Yama Kings, or the death inducing mania that comes with running around an Alchera.

In respect to their current situation, the supposed stand off, I think they are in a losing battle. They may be able to keep the Grey-Wolf and Co pinned down for a time, but these are guys that are attached to bigger outfits. How long is it going to Sacristan to get on the horn, and have a team of 20 mercs show up, and pull them out of the situation? Not to mention the resources that Grey Wolf and Inoue can bring to the party. You know those Yaks have a rolodex full of hired guns.

I'm not saying murder your party, but give them a taste of the hammer. Make them flee for once. Help them understand that killing made guys, with impunity, in a town like Seattle, has very real consequnces.

[NumptyScrub]

I can see where you're coming from, but it still sticks in my craw that the experience the players will have of the ambush is the same either way. Plus, of course, there's the nightmare scenario where it turns out there's something in the system I've forgotten and when the PCs start investigating, they find out the thing they needed to remind me that the ambush wouldn't have actually worked at all...

Seriously, we are all capable of knowing we have pissed off (almost?) every major player in Seattle at this point. I personally am surprised we are not getting ambushed every other block, given that we've fucked over the Yaks, Kaz's guys, Lone Star and now Grey Wolf, all of whom have access to field teams who know how to dakka.

Admittedly the other players may need reminding that other people can run searches, and tail people, and getting the cavalry turn up now would certainly do so. Especially if it turns into a full blown Yaks vs us vs Lone Star 3-way of Doom (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Zod and Dawg are still running under the assumption that we are playing an up-teched version of the other game (codename: Basements and Cyborgs?) and that we are only going to get "challenged" (not raped to death) even if we lay siege to a police station. I have tried pointing out to them that we are expendable assets, and that we are not hero-archetypes that vanquish evil, just guys with some guns trying to pay the bills (and blow shit up along the way). A TPK may be required to point out to them that just because we are awesomely powerful (in a very limited set of skills) doesn't mean nobody else is (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Also bear in mind a TPK will mean we all create new chars, and the impression I get from the other guys is that they would be up for making new chars and carrying on with SR, rather than throwing toys out of the pram and demanding we play another game.

If you would prefer someone else to GM SR4A for a bit I'll volunteer, I'm happy to bodge something together for an alternate set of chars as an aside. Everyone makes a new char at 750 karmagen, I'll bodge some dubious sounding runs together (probably by making it up as I go along, as I am not a particularly prepared GM), and we can flesh out all the interaction as we go along. I can't pretend I'll be any good, but it'll give you a chance to relax into just playing the game and let someone else deal with the incessant rules-lawyering. Once you feel more comfortable with the system we can switch back to the old chars and carry on with our one-team war against crime, or make brand new ones and start from scratch back in Seattle (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Seriously Mike]

Thaaaat's the spirit.

[Wiseman]

Seriously, we are all capable of knowing we have pissed off (almost?) every major player in Seattle at this point. I personally am surprised we are not getting ambushed every other block, given that we've fucked over the Yaks, Kaz's guys, Lone Star and now Grey Wolf, all of whom have access to field teams who know how to dakka.

Admittedly the other players may need reminding that other people can run searches, and tail people, and getting the cavalry turn up now would certainly do so. Especially if it turns into a full blown Yaks vs us vs Lone Star 3-way of Doom (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Zod and Dawg are still running under the assumption that we are playing an up-teched version of the other game (codename: Basements and Cyborgs?) and that we are only going to get "challenged" (not raped to death) even if we lay siege to a police station. I have tried pointing out to them that we are expendable assets, and that we are not hero-archetypes that vanquish evil, just guys with some guns trying to pay the bills (and blow shit up along the way). A TPK may be required to point out to them that just because we are awesomely powerful (in a very limited set of skills) doesn't mean nobody else is (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Also bear in mind a TPK will mean we all create new chars, and the impression I get from the other guys is that they would be up for making new chars and carrying on with SR, rather than throwing toys out of the pram and demanding we play another game.

If you would prefer someone else to GM SR4A for a bit I'll volunteer, I'm happy to bodge something together for an alternate set of chars as an aside. Everyone makes a new char at 750 karmagen, I'll bodge some dubious sounding runs together (probably by making it up as I go along, as I am not a particularly prepared GM), and we can flesh out all the interaction as we go along. I can't pretend I'll be any good, but it'll give you a chance to relax into just playing the game and let someone else deal with the incessant rules-lawyering. Once you feel more comfortable with the system we can switch back to the old chars and carry on with our one-team war against crime, or make brand new ones and start from scratch back in Seattle (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I like this guy. You my friend "get it".

[hyphz]

I don't want to bring group social things onto this forum too much but I'll mention some clarifications here. If NumptyScrub wants to run a game, that's fine with me. The reasons I proposed for dropping Shadowrun as a game system weren't to do with the party power issue though (and I don't know about "throwing my toys out of the pram"); I don't mind struggling through that if people like the system. The reasons were
a) the limited ability for characters to advance in their own niche (since most likely, they are at the cap right out of chargen);
b) the overdominance of magic;
c) the lethality of combat leading to the "who acts first is the only one who acts" overemphasis on Initiative.

That's why I'm really shy of using ambushes - combine that initiative rule with the rule that unaware attacks get NO defense, not even Reaction, and an ambush too easily becomes a bolt from the blue. The magic issue is also to some extent part of why you don't suddenly get ambushed - with the average thug having only average Willpower, an invisible Zod and Dawg will take out such a team with shots and Powerballs with basically no chance of being hit back. Yea, the Yaks don't like it when you mess with them, but when you mess with them by siccing a Force 10 Spirit of Man on them they're more likely to be crapping themselves and searching for bigger guns! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Heck, has anyone ported Shadowrun or anything like it to FATE3? I idly mentioned that a few messages ago but since then have been thinking what a good idea it would be, as it turns all the problems I have with settings needing insane amounts of detail into a game mechanic.

[AppliedCheese]

Re: Overdominance of magic. Yes, mages are powerful. Yes, they have many tricks and toys. There are many who complain of the potential for "magic-run". But the fact that you're softballing the mages sure ain't helping. To quote someone's ig around here:

"The less a GM understands the magic system the more powerful it gets; the less a GM understands the matrix, the less powerful it gets." The correct counter to PC mages of doom is a little homework, combined with a healthy understanding that once you or your team is ID'd as using magic, your threat level immediately goes up exponentially. Also, magic leaves its own very unique set of constantly blaring forensics and has something of a mutually assured destruction pact on it.

Kill some gangers? The KE/star will probably conduct a cursory investigation, see if ti indicates any major power changes in their beat, and file the evidence for later if you happen to crop up. Kill some gangers with major mojo flying everywhere? Magical Response Special Task Force. Add this signature to the database, begin network analysis, start an active targetting process, link diagrams...basically, the moment you touch Force 7+ mojo, you've asked the authorities to find you and crush you. And not just the cops. There's a lot of Megas who would love to strap your happy ass into a pyramid for some testing, or would consider it an aok investment to just kill your whole team and have you involuntarily extracted.

Its the equivalent of robbing a liquor store under the cover of an automatic grenade launcher would be today. The liqour store isn't the interesting part: the fact that you saw fit to smash the place with 40mm is.

[Warlordtheft]

a) everything going quiet and nobody knowing what they're meant to do;
b) what I call being "pinned down" - having to answer a long series of detail questions about an area, and having to pick through them in an incredibly paranoid way because the slightest error can trash or trivialize an entire encounter. It might only take 1m of range to make the difference between "tense firefight" and "we hose them down because we're out of their range but they're in ours".

A should not be a problem with your group. IIRC from other posts your group has played other systems for a while, so they probly have some sense of what they think they should be doing.

B. The concept of SR encounters should be tossed out the window. What you should focus on is if you are challenging the players. THe detect enemies spell being a good one. Zod should not have gotten that close without the possibility of being detected. I also thought that giving everything a 5 rating was a good call. Ultimately in that event, did the players complain that is was not a detailed system? Probably not, and would a few dice up or down made a significant difference, my guess is-probably not.

[Warlordtheft]

The players aren't steamrolling me, they're fine with facilitating things. But it's not that "if I challenge them they'll quit", it's that if I'm going to give them a challenge then the sides have to be decided in advance and fixed then, and nobody seems to be giving me that. Instead everything is expected to be fluid so presumably there's some grand agenda I'm supposed to be pursuing in secret which I just don't like the idea of.

I'll pipe in here and add that you as a GM may not have and agenda. The NPC's sure do, and part of GMing is deciding their agendas, how they respond to PC's in regards to that agenda, and what resources they have to achieve that agenda. This includes eliminating the percieved threats to their agenda. If I was gming this group, there would not only been a fire elemental after zod, but a back-up team of mooks waiting for him in the hallway (w/matrix and magic support).

[LostProxy]

a) the limited ability for characters to advance in their own niche (since most likely, they are at the cap right out of chargen);
b) the overdominance of magic;
c) the lethality of combat leading to the "who acts first is the only one who acts" overemphasis on Initiative.
----------------------------------------
A) A person is usually near the cap when they Min max at least a bit. More importantly why should they? If you're throwing 17+ dice in a specific field why should you try and boost it? All it means is now you can spread your skill set, buy positive/buy off negative qualities, and use your Karma for other stuff instead of skill boosting. Karma has uses beyond getting an extra die or two for shooting stuff.

B) I usually just sit back and read this stuff but on the subject of magic being too powerful you could always just house rule it. Three things we used were

B1) It's Willpower x 3 to defend. That means the average person will at least have a bit of defense that can't be lowered by things like wide burst spells since they don't exist. Add counterspelling or Edge to that and they should be able to soak a few spells.

B2) Those lanterns that let you see the astral? We have those in smaller light bulb forms which can be put into cyber eyes. Now every mundane with the resources can see the Astral and more importantly make perception tests on it.

C) Not really. You can give up your first action to dive for cover, use edge to go first, and a load of other things to mitigate the risk. SR is lethal, that's its thing.

[Yerameyahu]

The only reason they have no place to go is that they minmaxed their asses off in chargen. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) That said, the best shooter on the planet *doesn't* have anywhere to go… in shooting. Instead, he can work on other (probably complementary) skills.

Combat is supposed to be dangerous, because you're not supposed to be getting shot all the time. Shadowrunners are not tiny military squads, but operators for hire. Avoid combat, if you want to be a shadowrunner for very long. When you can't avoid it, yes, you want to make it as unfair as possible: ambush, correct weapons, etc. Synchronized, silent takedowns are fine if you can *reasonably* pull it off; because your opponents aren't all morons, you can't always do that.

[Manunancy]

The other thing is that you list a lot of different options which is good but it seems to be that in SR there are so many options that it's almost impossible for the PCs to cover their bases. This is another thing that bothers me about improvising - unless I actually draw a detailed map and write a 1,000 word essay describing a location, chances are there are going to be loopholes in what I didn't describe by some means or other.

You can never be 100% sure you're protected against a trail, and you'd better plan like you would be. But of the different methods I exposed most can be mitigated quite easily :

*tracers, gridguide : going to a non-gridlinked area and change the vehicle's id wil do the trick. To be on the safe side, change cars and torch the used one to remove evidences. Today, every reasonably pro will do that, using a stolen car with false plates taking the role of grid id and burning it once they're done. On can expect the runner to have at least that level of profesionnalism. If the car isn't disposable, look for tracers (with sight and sensors) and stash it someplace coated with wifi-inhibiting paint. Do a sweep with a RFId tag fryer. And if at all possible use another vehicle for some time.
* physical tail : keep your eyes and sensors open. If your car's an offroader, use it to make stint offroad and lose most pursuers. Even if they can follow, they will stand out.
* magic tail : an astral observer (mage or spirit) can spot it. Lacking that, make sure you move through a place that's as dirty on the astral as possible (glow city comes to mind). While it has it's own set of problems, it means most low-grade mages and spirits won't be able to follow.
* somebody waiting home : don't be a one-place guy and stay away from your usual haunts until the heat dies down.

None of this is a 100% guarantee, but just doing that will shake most trails without too much effort. Of course if you've made powerful peoples mad at you it might not be enough - if they turn enough rocks they'll stumble upon the one you've crawled under, but at least it will take a concerted effort to find you. One you may hear about from one of your contacts.

None of those precautions are very hard to implement and they won't even require much in the way of specialized skills, meaning just about very party can use them. The trickiest bit will be magic, though the 'go through heavily trashed areas' methode can be used by anyone, even if a low-magic shapefishter might have a few extra problems. And of course if you've pissed the wrong parties enough, plan for the moment those precautions fail - maybe they won't, maybe they will, but you'd better be safe than sorry.

[suoq]

a) the limited ability for characters to advance in their own niche (since most likely, they are at the cap right out of chargen);

They can widen their niche.

b) the overdominance of magic;

Fight fire with ice.
1) The GM doesn't need to beat on the players with magic.
2) Weak enemy mages can defend against players with aspecting their home turf.
3) Background count changes fights.

c) the lethality of combat leading to the "who acts first is the only one who acts" overemphasis on Initiative.

Give people armor. Guns didn't really get any stronger. Armor went through the roof with half FFBA, PPP, and to some extent, Softweave.

an ambush too easily becomes a bolt from the blue.

Isn't that what an ambush is supposed to be?

with the average thug having only average Willpower, an invisible Zod and Dawg will take out such a team with shots and Powerballs with basically no chance of being hit back.

You mean that astrally glowing Zod and Dawg that can be seen coming a mile away by anyone who can look into the astral? A street urchin with assessing and a commlink can change the whole battle. Or an old guy with watcher spirits with a commlink and a rocking chair.

[suoq]

dp

[suoq]

What inevitably happens is that the players immediately say "we don't go anywhere, we drive around randomly until we lose the tail" so that a) the chase is now a time stop until the PCs win, and b) the GM is pressurised to improv an entire city map.

http://shadowrun.chinagreenelvis.com/map/

[zephraim]

Heck, has anyone ported Shadowrun or anything like it to FATE3? I idly mentioned that a few messages ago but since then have been thinking what a good idea it would be, as it turns all the problems I have with settings needing insane amounts of detail into a game mechanic.

If you want to do that I would recommend looking at Strands of Fate, it comes with premade rules for magic, cyberware and everything. I used it to run the classic Stuffer Shack Shootout mission, worked pretty well except my players refused to take the game seriously due to the rules-light nature of the FATE system.

[Yerameyahu]

I wouldn't call SR4 'insanely' detailed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

If you want to do that I would recommend looking at Strands of Fate, it comes with premade rules for magic, cyberware and everything. I used it to run the classic Stuffer Shack Shootout mission, worked pretty well except my players refused to take the game seriously due to the rules-light nature of the FATE system.

I am working on a Port to Feng Shui for those times when you really want to get Over the Top... it has been a lot of fun. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[hyphz]

I wouldn't call SR4 'insanely' detailed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I don't really mean the rules system, I mean the information about an area the players explore. As in, what are all the heights of things? How is the background level, the Matrix coverage? How solid are each of the walls, are they warded, are they EM shielded? Are there things to hide behind, how far away are they from other things, are there observation systems, what kind of technology do they use, do they have wireless nodes, etc...