The ninth session.., .. near the end of my tether Options

[Yerameyahu]

Oh. You meant that it's a world? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I don't believe there are tabletop RPGs for which this is not the case.

[suoq]

I don't really mean the rules system, I mean the information about an area the players explore. As in, what are all the heights of things? How is the background level, the Matrix coverage? How solid are each of the walls, are they warded, are they EM shielded? Are there things to hide behind, how far away are they from other things, are there observation systems, what kind of technology do they use, do they have wireless nodes, etc...

The apply to any system, any genre, where the players are free to do most anything. The more "freedom" the more they apply. (For example, they're less likely to occurr in D&D (where people are focused on their abilities) and more likely to occurr in a freeform LARP (where none of the players even know what the rule system used is).

This is all stuff that you're either going to waste a LOT of time working on in advance prep (because it never comes up) or you just pull out of your butt. For example, my public notes (stuff the players will get to see) for the mission I have in the wings is all at http://fairlygoodpractices.com/shadowrun/mission . I got a nice blueprint of the place that's important, road maps, courtesy of google, and everything else in a 4 page Open Office document including cut and pastes from Chummer. I do enough work up front that I can make up the rest and no more. If, suddenly, the surrounding area around the building becomes important, whatever surrounds the intersection on google maps is what's there. (Note that the building on the location in google maps is a different style of building. It got torn down and rebuilt. Everything else is the same. Why? Because it's easy that way.)

[hyphz]

Oh. You meant that it's a world? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I don't believe there are tabletop RPGs for which this is not the case.

Sure, but in D&D for example you don't have to worry so much about the details because they're less critical. A wall is pretty much a wall; people don't go through shooting arrows through them and there aren't that many spells that can tear one down (in 4e there aren't any). In SR you have to worry about its effect on multiple planes and how that'll effect things back and forth through the battle, bearing in mind that leaving shielding off a wall could easily result in someone hacking a drone from the other side of the wall or sending a spirit through and trivialising the encounter.

Also, in D&D if you make a big tactical slip on monster disposition then the PCs might get an advantage in the first round but that's just a few stripped hit points. In SR, the first hit an NPC takes is usually their last, so that can end the entire encounter too.

[suoq]

In SR, the first hit an NPC takes is usually their last, so that can end the entire encounter too.

The world has armor and cover. Let the NPCs use some. They shouldn't be bystanders in a video game.

[Mardrax]

a) the limited ability for characters to advance in their own niche (since most likely, they are at the cap right out of chargen);
b) the overdominance of magic;
c) the lethality of combat leading to the "who acts first is the only one who acts" overemphasis on Initiative.

A) When you get players who think their niche can be fulfilled by maxing out on one skill, yes. They should however find out fast that this is not the case at all. Zod might be the best shot in the world, but this is not a niche, it's a trait at most. The niche you're looking at is firearm combatant at range. This niche needs a wide variety of things to function. Let's look at a few examples:
- A means to get those firearms. Contacts, most likely, for whom you need some social skills in turn or you'll lose them fast, or won't get them to do anything for you at least. An alternative would be Armorer skill, and probably still some Contacts for acquiring raw materials.
- A means to get that range. Want to be the rooftop sniper? Sure, but you'll need to be able to get to that rooftop. Climbing gear would be a first. A means to get through a building, preferably without having to blow all locks off and alerting half the neighbourhood to your presence. Lockpicking gear, a way to open Maglocks, a way to bypass biometric locks, social skills to get past inhabitants or employees. And no, the mage won't always be available to Levitate people around. Why would the team take a guy on if he can't be self sufficient in his role, while someone who might still be a crack shot, but is unable to shoot a dime a mile away can fullfill his part just fine alone?
- A means to survive staying at range. Reaction, Dodge, armour, Infiltration.
- Being able to handle variety. An assault rifle is not the best choice for every situation. And expert craftsmen know to pick the right tool for the job, and how to handle those. Range too long? You'll need a sniper rifle. Target too tough? You'll need something heavier. Having to cross a busy downtown neighbourhood to get to your target? Good luck not getting arrested with that AR on your back. Need to get inside a high-sec facility covertly? Good luck bringing anything bigger than a ceramic holdout in.

From what I recall, Zod is sorely lacking in a lot, if not most of these. That's what hyperspecialisation in one skill does to you. It might make you the best shot there ever was, but you won't be any good in any role really. And most of your characters suffer from this concept. I don't see how this statement of yours can actually be true.

B) Overdominance of magic? I'll assume you're referring to your mage's penchant of summoning F10 spirits? See how often he can pull that off without instagibbing himself. And in what shape he is after the spirit spends Edge to resist, while you correctly apply the First Aid rules to patch himself up when he does survive.

C) In most cases, players will be going first. This relegates the problem to the mook department. Mooks come in numbers. How many can Zod kill in one IP, especially considering he probably won't have his non-quickdrawable gun out? How's about the mage? Besides that, as has been mentioned, one or two of the mooks can use their group Edge to go first, should your feeling of tension think it necessary.

Sure, but in D&D for example you don't have to worry so much about the details because they're less critical. A wall is pretty much a wall; people don't go through shooting arrows through them and there aren't that many spells that can tear one down (in 4e there aren't any). In SR you have to worry about its effect on multiple planes and how that'll effect things back and forth through the battle, bearing in mind that leaving shielding off a wall could easily result in someone hacking a drone from the other side of the wall or sending a spirit through and trivialising the encounter.

You mean you don't have people in your D&D group who habitually use the ethereal plane to get past walls? How about the shadow plane for some fast, pre-teleporting travel? Or that you don't have people who have discovered an adamantium weapon can get you through anything as long as you keep hitting it lightly?

On a more serious note, that's not trivialising the encounter. That's making smart use of the assets they have, and have paid for, and often make up the core concepts of their characters. Even for NPCs.
If that leads to a fairly easy scene: well done players! They took the environment given, and made the best possible use out of it. Next time, their options might be vastly different, but we'll see about that then.

In the end, in any RPG, you'll have to ad lib most of your environment. Sometimes, this'll be critical, other times, this'll be useless beyond window dressing. What matters though, is that you have enough of a mental picture of how the world operates, to come up with environments on the fly, without breaking verisimilitude
. You're downtown? It's busy! Very tall buildings, cops everywhere. Out in the Barrens? Downtrodden people, crumbling roads and houses.

Whatever you come up with though, it's alright! As long as your players are having fun, anyway.

[Glyph]

Personally, I prefer games where it is less surveillance society, and more action movie, and would rather play a lot of the details down. If a squad of mooks needs to find the characters, there will usually be some plausible reason or other that they could have done so - although it will be to set up an adrenaline-pumping fight, not to insta-kill the players. Personally, I would rather play in a game where I don't need to strain my brain with too many convoluted precautions - I play to unwind. I like the older-style Shadowrun, where you just did the run, then laid low for a bit waiting for the heat to die down.

But there kind of needs to be a gentleman's agreement for both sides to stay away from the cheese. Yeah, it's a tactical game where circumventing a fight is often the ideal, but it's not cool when the group uses one exploitative tactic to win all the encounters (have the car of doom ram things, have the sniper head-shot everyone, summon the Force: 10 spirit to do all the work). If it gets done too often, then one, the GM finds a way to stop it that usually involves an escalation of some sort, and two, the GM starts to wonder why, if the PCs are doing these tactics over and over because they "work", why the NPCs don't do some similarly logical tactics that are equally impossible to defend against.

I really think you are running the wrong kind of scenario - too complicated, too many power players that could come after the players if they happen to simply win a firefight, etc. I think you and they would both be better off running simpler runs and jobs.

[Stalag]

If you would prefer someone else to GM SR4A for a bit I'll volunteer, I'm happy to bodge something together for an alternate set of chars as an aside. Everyone makes a new char at 750 karmagen, I'll bodge some dubious sounding runs together (probably by making it up as I go along, as I am not a particularly prepared GM), and we can flesh out all the interaction as we go along. I can't pretend I'll be any good, but it'll give you a chance to relax into just playing the game and let someone else deal with the incessant rules-lawyering. Once you feel more comfortable with the system we can switch back to the old chars and carry on with our one-team war against crime, or make brand new ones and start from scratch back in Seattle (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Aw man - I want to join (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Stalag]

Sure, but in D&D for example you don't have to worry so much about the details because they're less critical. A wall is pretty much a wall; people don't go through shooting arrows through them and there aren't that many spells that can tear one down (in 4e there aren't any).

Then you never played D&D with our group (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Also, in D&D if you make a big tactical slip on monster disposition then the PCs might get an advantage in the first round but that's just a few stripped hit points. In SR, the first hit an NPC takes is usually their last, so that can end the entire encounter too.

Especially when you just decide it kills them without actually roll anything. It sounds like your NPC's aren't adequately geared (or you're forgetting they are). I know you're probably going to say 'but that's what the books says they have' so I'll go ahead and counter that we've been telling you to stop relying on the book and go with what makes sense.

Also, Your NPC's seem to always be hitting your PC's where they're strongest, not where they're weakest. It's not only trivializing the encounters it's not very realistic. When the US tanker crews in WWII learned that their Shermans didn't stand a chance going head to head against German Tiger's they stopped going head to head and altered their tactics to hit them where they're weak.

There's a danger in all this of course - it becomes an easy slide into "Players vs GM" instead of "Characters against the world". Just one more thing you have to be good at managing if you want to GM.

[Midas]

I don't want to bring group social things onto this forum too much but I'll mention some clarifications here. If NumptyScrub wants to run a game, that's fine with me. The reasons I proposed for dropping Shadowrun as a game system weren't to do with the party power issue though (and I don't know about "throwing my toys out of the pram"); I don't mind struggling through that if people like the system. The reasons were
a) the limited ability for characters to advance in their own niche (since most likely, they are at the cap right out of chargen);
b) the overdominance of magic;
c) the lethality of combat leading to the "who acts first is the only one who acts" overemphasis on Initiative.

That's why I'm really shy of using ambushes - combine that initiative rule with the rule that unaware attacks get NO defense, not even Reaction, and an ambush too easily becomes a bolt from the blue. The magic issue is also to some extent part of why you don't suddenly get ambushed - with the average thug having only average Willpower, an invisible Zod and Dawg will take out such a team with shots and Powerballs with basically no chance of being hit back. Yea, the Yaks don't like it when you mess with them, but when you mess with them by siccing a Force 10 Spirit of Man on them they're more likely to be crapping themselves and searching for bigger guns! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

a) If you define niche as 1 skill, yes it is pretty easy to get at CG. What you don't seem to understand is that most niches require more than one skill. I hate going back to the monster that is Zod, but without Pistols skill what is he going to do in places he has to check his assault rifle in/not take it in in the first place? Even in the Barrens, most people have to check heavy guns in at the door, so if he goes to meet a Johnson in a bar and for whatever reason a bar fight ensues, a couple of gangers could take him out. Most sammies worthy of the name want Pistols skill for the times they can't bring their monster assault rifles to the party, so for a start Zod could advance by getting that skill. Dodge would also be a high priority, then secondary skills such as First Aid, Hardware (to bypass them maglocks) etc.

b) Yes, a lot of folks at DS feel that magic is overpowered, and if the opposition don't have a mage of their own it can be this way. You need to get out of the mindset that mages are rarer than rare (1% of the general population is Awakened, the % is probably much higher for the shadow population). But you also need to stop making magic an Insta-Win. Invisibility is good, but not against Ultrasound. You shouldn't overuse something like this, but if it crops up from time to time, your PC's are going to start holding their breath whenever Dawg levitates Zod to a rooftop. A spirit patrolling can also get Dawg with is pants down if he is invisibly levitating Zod (-4 for 2 sustained spells, ouch!).

c) That's why Shadowrunners often come up against mooks in numbers. They can be employed intelligently, spreading out to avoid wide bursts and Area Effect spells, they can use cover, and they can use group edge to go first if your sense of the dramatic calls for it. A few gangers intelligently using tactics should be able to easily take down a static sammie, especially if like in the version of Zod you showed us, he has no Dodge/Gymnastics skill.

And Yaks attacked by a F10 spirit? Yes, they will definitely bring out the big guns. Dawg should expect a powerful attack from a ritual team anytime ...

[suoq]

Dawg should expect a powerful attack from a ritual team anytime ...

My bet that if it ever happens the entire ritual team will be standing in the middle of the street wearing no armor after Zod has already been lifted to a rooftop and can clearly see them and they're within range.

Hand the reigns over to NumptyScrub already. He's willing to fail and learn from it and laugh about it.

[NumptyScrub]

The reasons I proposed for dropping Shadowrun as a game system weren't to do with the party power issue though (and I don't know about "throwing my toys out of the pram"); I don't mind struggling through that if people like the system.

No no no I didn't mean you! I meant us, as players, are not (in my opinion) going to get arsey and start throwing toys if we do get TPK'd (or near TPK'd) by the Evil Hit Squad of Doom™ that the Yak's and Wolf just spent 100k to hire as an extraction team. Dawg is enjoying the system, and Zod seems to be enjoying it too, so this would present a chance to reset the story now that we all have a much better idea of how things work (and what numbers are useful on a character sheet (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ).

Alternatively, if you think we just need a little time to get better acquainted with the more esoteric parts like magic battles and the matrix, we put Seattle to one side for a couple of weeks and make some new chars to do a few targeted runs, focussing on one part or another. The best way to learn what works in hacking (and what doesn't) and how to play through a hack is to do loads of hacking. Hell, we could do some one session themed runs, e.g. this weekend is hacking weekend; we all make hackers or kitted up non-hackers (spend (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) on good commlinks and good software, points on hacking skills and then some points on other skills, shooty hacker, b&e hacker, magicky hacker) and the run is a simple one that is all about hacking into somewhere for a data payload, with most obstacles hacking related and the odd guard to spice it up. Next weekend is magic weekend, where we (without a doubt) end up creating the mother of all Force 12+ spirit shitstorms to get into a heavily magicked up corp HQ. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) I'm happy to GM any or all of the above, if you want some time in the player's seat to see how it works from there, vs the very different view you get as a GM.

I personally am perfectly happy for us to learn the system that way, by taking it to extremes in a series of one-offs; our characters as extremely good (and/or bad) and the opposition as extremely good (and/or bad). It'll give us all a feel for what the various archetypes can do, what they need to be good at the role, and how to play them. We'll also have a much better feel for the environment; none of us is actually that familiar with the SR universe, so we probably all have different ideas of where we are and how things fit together. Is it like Bladerunner? Ghost in the Shell? Deus Ex? How do we as a group want it to play like (I suspect Deus Ex for some of the players)?

[Neraph]

I don't want to bring group social things onto this forum too much but I'll mention some clarifications here. If NumptyScrub wants to run a game, that's fine with me. The reasons I proposed for dropping Shadowrun as a game system weren't to do with the party power issue though (and I don't know about "throwing my toys out of the pram"); I don't mind struggling through that if people like the system. The reasons were
a) the limited ability for characters to advance in their own niche (since most likely, they are at the cap right out of chargen);
b) the overdominance of magic;
c) the lethality of combat leading to the "who acts first is the only one who acts" overemphasis on Initiative.

Like we've been trying to tell you for over a month now, that's because you're doing it wrong. And I mean "wrong" as in "you're not using correct/logical tactics or you're not maing full use of dicepool modifiers."

Yes, you can get a basically maxed-out specialist in his field at chargen, but there are other bonuses you can get in-game that are not as available otherwise (for example: replacing all your 'ware with Delta or getting most of the genetweaks). However, you are the one who decided to be super-specialized. You do not need to start as the absolute best in your field.

Yes, magic can be very powerful, but there are plenty of ways to counter it, even from a mundane perspective. Stay out of LoS. Have Willpower. Get manatech items. At one extreme, have Astral Hazing or Arcane Arrester (or both).

Yes, combat can be lethal. Combat is lethal. However, just like defeating magic, taking cover, breaking LoS, and wearing armor will do a lot for keeping you alive.

[Neraph]

I don't really mean the rules system, I mean the information about an area the players explore. As in, what are all the heights of things? How is the background level, the Matrix coverage? How solid are each of the walls, are they warded, are they EM shielded? Are there things to hide behind, how far away are they from other things, are there observation systems, what kind of technology do they use, do they have wireless nodes, etc...

The answers to all of those is "yes." Yes - it's tall (most buildings tend to be 5 stories in my games; downtown styled everywhere), there's Backround Count (usually 1, sometimes more), and there's Matrix coverage everywhere but the Barrens (and even there with a 500 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) SatLink); they are all brick or plascrete buildings, many of them warded (1-4), most have Wifi-negating wallpaper (3-6), there are plenty of places to hide, they're all close (the dystopic future is cluttered, yo), there're always observation systems (that use, well, technology [DR 2-5]), and there are always wireless nodes.

If your group wants to spend a couple hours fooling around in a sandbox doing things that don't matter, let them. Maybe afterwards they'll regain their focus and actually pay attention to the game. After the fifth person's 'link they hacked has a negative account balance and they're currently on the comms with their in-laws or naggy girlfriend they'll stop hacking random people's 'links.

[HunterHerne]

The answers to all of those is "yes." Yes - it's tall (most buildings tend to be 5 stories in my games; downtown styled everywhere), there's Backround Count (usually 1, sometimes more), and there's Matrix coverage everywhere but the Barrens (and even there with a 500 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) SatLink); they are all brick or plascrete buildings, many of them warded (1-4), most have Wifi-negating wallpaper (3-6), there are plenty of places to hide, they're all close (the dystopic future is cluttered, yo), there're always observation systems (that use, well, technology [DR 2-5]), and there are always wireless nodes.

If your group wants to spend a couple hours fooling around in a sandbox doing things that don't matter, let them. Maybe afterwards they'll regain their focus and actually pay attention to the game. After the fifth person's 'link they hacked has a negative account balance and they're currently on the comms with their in-laws or naggy girlfriend they'll stop hacking random people's 'links.

The only thing I ever hacked a random 'link for, was the access ID so I could link other activities to a real person from the area.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

Sure, but I'm assuming they notice the tail here. If they don't notice the tail there will be no play of any attempt to lose them and when they arrive at their destination the PCs will just be surprised by some random people they won't expecting. Which isn't really a great way for it to turn out because, for all the _players_ know, I just dropped those random people there out of nowhere. This is the trick about many of the challenges I'm thinking through: I want them to be fair and to be seen to be fair.

That's why you roll some dice behind your GM screen without showing them the results. And get each of their perception scores, and roll these things for them. You DO let them roll perception again only IF and WHEN the shit is about to hit the fan. Alternatively make a house-rule that they can spend edge to roll defense against a hidden sniper. I think this is a very necessary house-rule both ways, because that will easily save important NPCs, too, while mooks won't generally have that much edge, only use team edge, or generally won't be important enough to save that way.

So the total deal is this:
Roll their perception against being tailed for them. Then when they step out of the door while there is a sniper somewhere waiting for them, let them roll perception once, as a regular reactive spot check. If they make it, good, there'll be a firefight. And who cares if they now metagame that since you are asking, there must be someone lying in waiting? You might ask them for reactive spot checks a few times for minor details so they don't go about edging each one of them.
And if they don't spot the guy, you can drop one of them into overflow, and leave the others scrambling to save their buddy and their hides. This is the beauty of snipers: You can realistically expect a sniper to NOT finish off his target, because he might be baiting for the rescue effort. Which of course is nothing except a new chance to spot him, or to use some fancy tactic to best him in another way. (For instance obscuring vision, etc.)

Oh, sure, they won't automatically lose the tail just by saying that. But the point is that the moment the players have said "we won't go anywhere important while the tail is on", essentially that means that game time is going to stop at this car journey until they do lose the tail. There's no way the tail will win the conflict and find out where the PCs are going because the PCs will always insist they aren't going anywhere while the tail is there. If the tail sticks to them like glue and doesn't escalate they will just insist they are driving around for as long as it takes for their rolls to turn out lucky.

Uh, TIME? Do they always have unlimited amounts of that? Force them to set meeting times, etc. in advance, and also mandate this for NPC meets, so they don't get the chance to run around indefinitely.

I am a bit nervous about improv-ing in general, it's true, but I am more nervous of it when I have to at the same time try to come up with interesting challenges in a complicated rules system where even a slight slip of the tongue could create an auto-win or a no-win for the players.

Rightly so, BUT, what I suggest is this: Take the Chummer program and find out a few realistic DPs for opponents in various areas, going by what you want your average opponent to be like.
Shooting
Dodging
Full-dodging
Spellcasting + Spell defence
Matrix stuff
Drone attack DPs, Drone sensor DPs and stealth DP
Stealth in general (using the available aids, and noting down which are cheap to achieve, and which expensive)

And once you have an idea about these DP sizes they suddenly get very easy to adjust up and down on the fly, for opponents you can quickly create.

Then, make an empty "NPC-sheet", which is just a very minimalist affair, with open boxes for stats and stuff, but put down the formulas for derived stats so you can get them quickly. Then whenever you need an NPC, just quickly fill out the thing. If you are playing with laptops make it an excel sheet that will auto-calculate for you.

Well, the thing about multiple tails and the drone are good ideas but again, from my point of view I'd avoid them because they don't really add anything. Take the invisible drone example. What will happen from the players' point of view is that they will make a lot of effort to lose the visible tail, get to where they're going, and then suffer the consequences of having been followed anyway. They'll probably be left with the impression that their being followed was predetermined from the beginning and the whole business of losing the tail was a waste of time. If I say, "Well, there was actually an invisible drone following you!", well, who's to say that if the mage had checked the astral the same thing wouldn't have happened except I'd be saying "well, there was actually a tracking device on your car all along!". That's the thing - I want the challenges to be fair and to be seen to be fair.

See above with hidden rolling their perception. You can even be extra generous and let them do a teamwork perception test.

But as for "why wouldn't the tail escalate" - well, I've had to have cases where I couldn't go further with that. The usual reason is "because they want to know where they are going, not to catch them" given that actually catching them would most likely result in them all dying in front of a smoking assault rifle.

See above. If the PCs spot that they are being tailed, then really make them work to lose the tail, and make it so that that iterative probability doesn't work for them. (i.e. you need more than one tail).

Then let them figure out what to do when they are constantly being followed by high-flying drones (flying over 550 meters high (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) ) and some guys on the ground. At some point they will NEED to do stuff, and so either have to lose, or confront, their tails.

Sure, but if I want to surprise the players, I can just have anyone randomly ambush them any time I like.

Unfair? Yes. But having the players tailed and then ambushed will appear just the same if they didn't notice the tail.

As I said, there is nothing inherently wrong with sniping them, or even dropping one of them. There is in fact nothing better to put their world-view back into perspective. you don't need to give the sniper an assault cannon, or a huge DP, because without defense, they will definitely hit and do damage.

So lets say you hit one of the guys with a 10-15P attack or so, out of the blue. For example, roll a minimal pool of 12 dice and use a Sport rifle with ExEx ammo from outside assault-rifle range. That probably won't kill him, but he'll be scrambling for survival.

I don't want to bring group social things onto this forum too much but I'll mention some clarifications here. If NumptyScrub wants to run a game, that's fine with me. The reasons I proposed for dropping Shadowrun as a game system weren't to do with the party power issue though (and I don't know about "throwing my toys out of the pram"); I don't mind struggling through that if people like the system. The reasons were
a) the limited ability for characters to advance in their own niche (since most likely, they are at the cap right out of chargen);
b) the overdominance of magic;
c) the lethality of combat leading to the "who acts first is the only one who acts" overemphasis on Initiative.

a) is a problem with min-maxing
b) yes, you DO need to really work through the rules to find out how to inconvenience a runner mage. I have this problem in my group.
c) there are a lot of ways to reduce lethality, and also reduce the importance of initiative:
- make it so that killing one of the opponents won't be that much a victory
- give opponents lots more armour, or let them full-dodge with decend dodge boosting cyber
- the guy who acts first without proper intel might find himself in the position that the slower guys are getting the drop on him, because his fast action has revealed his position. For instance: Zod drops a guy out of the blue, you let him roll init, and give him a surprise round. Then next round (the real 1st round) he drops another guy, because he goes first. And THEN 4-5 guys come out of hiding and shoot back. Nail him with some wide bursts to force him into full-dodge, or even put the hurt on him.

That's why I'm really shy of using ambushes - combine that initiative rule with the rule that unaware attacks get NO defense, not even Reaction, and an ambush too easily becomes a bolt from the blue. The magic issue is also to some extent part of why you don't suddenly get ambushed - with the average thug having only average Willpower, an invisible Zod and Dawg will take out such a team with shots and Powerballs with basically no chance of being hit back. Yea, the Yaks don't like it when you mess with them, but when you mess with them by siccing a Force 10 Spirit of Man on them they're more likely to be crapping themselves and searching for bigger guns! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Seriously, summoning that F10 is a luck thing, and it can just as well be a suicide tactic. Your players should now know that it's NOT something you should be doing on a regular basis.

Sure, but in D&D for example you don't have to worry so much about the details because they're less critical. A wall is pretty much a wall; people don't go through shooting arrows through them and there aren't that many spells that can tear one down (in 4e there aren't any). In SR you have to worry about its effect on multiple planes and how that'll effect things back and forth through the battle, bearing in mind that leaving shielding off a wall could easily result in someone hacking a drone from the other side of the wall or sending a spirit through and trivialising the encounter.

The world of SR is a lot more complicated than a low-level D&D3.5 world, or probably any D&D4 (not that such a game actually exists (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) ) world, but at high levels, D&D can be just as bad, if not worse. When high-level magic is involved, the D&D world completely falls apart.

Also, in D&D if you make a big tactical slip on monster disposition then the PCs might get an advantage in the first round but that's just a few stripped hit points. In SR, the first hit an NPC takes is usually their last, so that can end the entire encounter too.

You are obviously spoiled by this game that doesn't really exist, or shouldn't be carrying that name. In 3.5, rocket tag is WORSE!! Winning initiative there probably doesn't just spell death for one hapless monster, it might mean the opposition never even gets to act, even if you can't kill all of them in one turn. And THEN all that same opposition might come back as you as the team-wizard's or necromancer's bitch. And then... it all goes downhill from there (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) .

Seriously, complexity of the game world increases exponentially with each added option in the game itself. It's not just an SR thing. The trouble is that while many things are left to be ad-libbed, a lot of others have to be done by the book, most likely some obscure teeny paragraph hidden away in a splat.

In SR, the GM has to learn the following areas well enough to improvise with good rules knowledge:
combat (+vehicle combat if your PCs are so inclined, which is an entirely new ruleset to learn (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) ...)
matrix
magic
gadget security

The other aspects are simpler:
NPCs
human security
world/background plot
corp stuff

What you need to watch out for is impossible plot pieces which would never work in the world because a simple gadget/item/spell/etc destroys them. However, if you DO make a mistake like that, then just admit to the fact that you've created a plot-hole, and go on from there. If said item hasn't been brought into the game yet at another occasion, just kill it from the rules, on the fly, if necessary. I'm generally not a friend of things like this, but when a single thing ruins days of preparation, then I'll weather the storms of player indignation (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) .

And finally:

Whenever you don't know how to deal with a certain subject, tell your players: I don't know the rules for this. If any of you can give me a rules quote within 2 minutes or so I'll look at it, but if you can't, I'll wing it, and we'll go on from there. No revision will be happening after the fact, but I'll welcome any pointers any time after the game, and I'll be sure to do it correctly next time.

[hyphz]

Ok, let's take these from the top (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Armor and cover. I've been using all of these. The problem, as I've said, is that they're just too wimpy to make much of a difference in practice, and too easily avoided. I mean, let's take a typical min-maxed combatant, with attr 6, skill 6, and a smartlink for a 14d pool. That's not even getting into Qualities that boost stats or adepthood. That's on average 4-5 hits. Now, even a min-maxed defender with Ref 6 (which is more than many statted NPCs have) only has 6d unless they take a Full Defense action, and if they do that, they're pinned down unless they have more IP than the attacker (unlikely if the attacker is optimized). Being in good cover is +4, so that's 10d (3 average hits = 3ah) against 14d (4 ah) for 1 net hit on average. If they'll accept being pinned down then it's 14d against 16d, but it's a stalemate, as they'll have to use all their action defending as long as the attacker keeps firing.

But our good friend Zod loves his full-auto, and what a ridiculous difference that makes! With a carefully set-up gun, all of the 9 recoil can be comped, but the -9 modifier to the defender for a wide burst dwarfs the cover modifier! That makes it 14d against (gasp) 1d (if they're in cover and not full defending) or 7d otherwise!

Armor. The highest armor listed in the book is Full Body Armor at 10/8, but most NPCs seem to favor Lined Coat level armor for around 6/6. Typical assault rifles have DV 6 and AP -1 so they always break that armor if they hit. So, 14d (4ah) against 1d (0ah) gives an average of 4nh and a MDV of 10 at AP -1. Again assuming a defender with twinky stats (which most NPCs don't have), the body+armor pool of 12d gets 4ah so on average that's 6 CM boxes which is a pretty significant whack. If they'll take the pin, 14d (4ah) against 7d (2ah) gives 2nh and MDV 8, with the same body+armor pool it's 4 CM boxes, but they're guaranteed to get one, because having spent the pass defending the attacker will just fire again.

Plus, of course, there's always the risk of a really crappy armor roll. That's what happened when Zod shot Kaz.

Single stats aren't niches. What when Zod has to check his assault rifle? Why, he uses his concealed machine pistol, which is fired with Automatics, instead. Dodge skill is pretty useless except in melee because using it leaves you pinned, as above.

You don't have to start super-specialized? Well sure, you don't, but that's kind of a lame thing to have to consider in character generation. "If I gain a few more karma I can be as good as I could have been at character generation if I hadn't deliberately allowed myself advancement room."

Can't get into a secure location? Unless it's an arcology (which in SR it might be, but hasn't been yet), the target is coming out sometime.

Time Limits. Simply put, the problem here is scaling. If we play out 20 extra combat turns, the runners might be 1 minute late to their appointment. For an amount of time to pass that would really matter IC, we'd have to spend the entire game session in real time on that single chase, or whatever.

Magic. Yea, the "if they don't have a mage they're stuck" is kind of a problem, as is the "1%" thing - really I don't understand how the setting deals with this. There's some talk about corporate "wage mages", although why the heck any mage would actually end up in that position I don't understand. Unless there's some really HUGE issue that prevents mages from ganging up together, by rights they ought to rule the world. But you then get to silly things like nightclubs needing to have mages on the door, what the heck?

Oh, and I was looking at Street Magic the other night to see if there is anything that non-mages can do against mages and found an even sillier trick: it seems that a materialized spirit can take all your guns into the club for you with Extraplanar Shortcut. (Actually, I even saw a really beardy interpretation which would allow Shortcut to get the spirit through any ward, anywhere - but even I, the softie GM, would probably slap anyone who actually tried to use it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) )

[HunterHerne]

Ok, let's take these from the top (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Armor and cover. I've been using all of these. The problem, as I've said, is that they're just too wimpy to make much of a difference in practice, and too easily avoided. I mean, let's take a typical min-maxed combatant, with attr 6, skill 6, and a smartlink for a 14d pool. That's not even getting into Qualities that boost stats or adepthood. That's on average 4-5 hits. Now, even a min-maxed defender with Ref 6 (which is more than many statted NPCs have) only has 6d unless they take a Full Defense action, and if they do that, they're pinned down unless they have more IP than the attacker (unlikely if the attacker is optimized). Being in good cover is +4, so that's 10d (3 average hits = 3ah) against 14d (4 ah) for 1 net hit on average. If they'll accept being pinned down then it's 14d against 16d, but it's a stalemate, as they'll have to use all their action defending as long as the attacker keeps firing.

But our good friend Zod loves his full-auto, and what a ridiculous difference that makes! With a carefully set-up gun, all of the 9 recoil can be comped, but the -9 modifier to the defender for a wide burst dwarfs the cover modifier! That makes it 14d against (gasp) 1d (if they're in cover and not full defending) or 7d otherwise!

Armor. The highest armor listed in the book is Full Body Armor at 10/8, but most NPCs seem to favor Lined Coat level armor for around 6/6. Typical assault rifles have DV 6 and AP -1 so they always break that armor if they hit. So, 14d (4ah) against 1d (0ah) gives an average of 4nh and a MDV of 10 at AP -1. Again assuming a defender with twinky stats (which most NPCs don't have), the body+armor pool of 12d gets 4ah so on average that's 6 CM boxes which is a pretty significant whack. If they'll take the pin, 14d (4ah) against 7d (2ah) gives 2nh and MDV 8, with the same body+armor pool it's 4 CM boxes, but they're guaranteed to get one, because having spent the pass defending the attacker will just fire again.

Plus, of course, there's always the risk of a really crappy armor roll. That's what happened when Zod shot Kaz.

Single stats aren't niches. What when Zod has to check his assault rifle? Why, he uses his concealed machine pistol, which is fired with Automatics, instead. Dodge skill is pretty useless except in melee because using it leaves you pinned, as above.

You don't have to start super-specialized? Well sure, you don't, but that's kind of a lame thing to have to consider in character generation. "If I gain a few more karma I can be as good as I could have been at character generation if I hadn't deliberately allowed myself advancement room."

Can't get into a secure location? Unless it's an arcology (which in SR it might be, but hasn't been yet), the target is coming out sometime.

Time Limits. Simply put, the problem here is scaling. If we play out 20 extra combat turns, the runners might be 1 minute late to their appointment. For an amount of time to pass that would really matter IC, we'd have to spend the entire game session in real time on that single chase, or whatever.

Magic. Yea, the "if they don't have a mage they're stuck" is kind of a problem, as is the "1%" thing - really I don't understand how the setting deals with this. There's some talk about corporate "wage mages", although why the heck any mage would actually end up in that position I don't understand. Unless there's some really HUGE issue that prevents mages from ganging up together, by rights they ought to rule the world. But you then get to silly things like nightclubs needing to have mages on the door, what the heck?

Oh, and I was looking at Street Magic the other night to see if there is anything that non-mages can do against mages and found an even sillier trick: it seems that a materialized spirit can take all your guns into the club for you with Extraplanar Shortcut. (Actually, I even saw a really beardy interpretation which would allow Shortcut to get the spirit through any ward, anywhere - but even I, the softie GM, would probably slap anyone who actually tried to use it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) )

Cover: 50-99% the target gets a +4 bonus. 100% The target gets a +4 bonus, the attacker uses indirect fire. If the character is hiding behind somethign that would completely cover him, it is safe to assume he has 100% cover, and if he attacks, he gets a -1 for firing from cover. If Zod wants to, he can delay his action for the guy coming out, but that may require tactical thinking.

Indirect fire: Firearms skill+Intuition -6. Your above stats, the shooter likely has an intuition of 3 or 4. Assuming 4, that gives him 6 dice, with the recoil accounted for. That's a good chance of getting away.

Armour: If the NPC can support it, feel free to give him some PPP gear, or an FFBA. Also, keep in mind that barriers used for cover add to the armour value as well. A wall has armour of 8 or 12. assuing brick, that's 12. That 6 suddenly becomes 18, 17 after AP, and is about 6 hits. Assuming the 2 net hits on the attack test, that is 2 damage boxes. Less when you account for the body, too.

Metaplanar Shortcut: The spirit can only transport to a place it's been before, and can't transport physical equipment.

Super specialization: As said, one skill can't cover everything. But that is up to you to figure out why that is now, as it has all bee stated already.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Ok, let's take these from the top (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Time Limits. Simply put, the problem here is scaling. If we play out 20 extra combat turns, the runners might be 1 minute late to their appointment. For an amount of time to pass that would really matter IC, we'd have to spend the entire game session in real time on that single chase, or whatever.

I will tackle this one. Chase Scenes are in Minute long intervals, not Combat Turns, unless you are tactically fighting. If they are not fighting, they would be minute long "Turns," not seconds long "Turns."

Leave aside, for argument's sake, the fact that you can be the best in the world at chargen, and look at the characters. What you have currently is a group of Stats that cannot function in the world they inhabit. They are not Functional Members of any society in existence. Some of them have been redesigned to better fit, but some are still just non-functional stat collections. The players should ask themselves how their characters are supposed to function and work in the world as presented. Yes, you can be billy badass with the Automatics skill at 26 Dice, but you are Mikey Milktoast in almost everything else. Why cannot ZOD be a Character with a Skill of 3-4 in Automatics and a point or two less in Agility, with a better distribution of Skills/Stats. He will still be deadly, but he will finally make sense in the world.

As for your issues with Cover and being pinned down, sometimes that happens, and the best bet is to remain covered and pinned down. That is how real individuals think... The vast majority are not going to ditch their cover just so that they can be gunned down. Why do your NPC's rush out to their death? Have them call in reinforcements. There are a TON of things that you do not do in your described scenarios that would have a HUGE impact on the outcome. The fact thyat you do not want to "surprise" your Players with things that he opposition would obviously think of is a big reason you are having issues.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Cover: 50-99% the target gets a +4 bonus. 100% The target gets a +4 bonus, the attacker uses indirect fire. If the character is hiding behind somethign that would completely cover him, it is safe to assume he has 100% cover, and if he attacks, he gets a -1 for firing from cover. If Zod wants to, he can delay his action for the guy coming out, but that may require tactical thinking.

Indirect fire: Firearms skill+Intuition -6. Your above stats, the shooter likely has an intuition of 3 or 4. Assuming 4, that gives him 6 dice, with the recoil accounted for. That's a good chance of getting away.

Don't forget that if the mook is being targeted through the barrier (100% Cover), he gets the benefit of the Barriers Armor/Barrier rating to aid in soaking damage.

[Stalag]

As for your issues with Cover and being pinned down, sometimes that happens, and the best bet is to remain covered and pinned down.

And maybe lob a grenade (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[HunterHerne]

Don't forget that if the mook is being targeted through the barrier (100% Cover), he gets the benefit of the Barriers Armor/Barrier rating to aid in soaking damage.

Addressed later, when I mention the Armour.

[Manunancy]

One thing to keep in mind about the 'pinned down' situation when using full dodge : sure if you're alone it sucks a lot. But if you have some buddies with you, it means that while you're hudling behind some cover while a maniac is sending tons of lead your way, your buddies aren't pinned and get a chance to nail the bastard. When said bastard is a sitting duck (remember Zod's lack of dodge or gymnastic), he'll soon have other things to think about than spraying one target.

Basically, when you aren't as good as the opposition (namely, the PCs), number, tactics and dirty tricks are you friends. Note that grenades or other indirect attacks can be neat equalizers if the range is right since they can be send without exposing yourself. Another option is to have a friend or a drone with a sniper riffle firing from farther out than the ennemy's range.

[AppliedCheese]

Lets see that math again for full recoil on Zod's ares alpha. Starts with gas vent two, can only have 6 slots of modification put on it. Unless, of course, Zod is also carrying a smart tripod around (because, you know, the assault rifle wasn't conspicuous enough).

Now lets run the scenario.

Assuming Zod has managed to make his one full auto burst completely compensated, and is shooting with his 21 dice against mookinator A. Hell, he's nice and optimized, so i bet he's chock full of APDS. Baseline is 6P/-5 + net hits. Averages say he scores 7 net hits , so we're at 13P - 5 versus Mookinator, REA 4, BOD 3, 8/6 (you think no one else spends cheap yen on FFBA?) COVER 4, DODGE 3. if its good, solid cover, and Zod is shooting wide, you might want to tack on the barrier rating to armor as well - since he's liberally spraying the general area. But we'll say you don't.

Full Def = 66% chance of 1 hit. So, 12P -5
Soak = 3 armor + 3 Bod = 2 hits.

Average result - mookinator goes down. If you add barrier, the average result is mookinator stays up.
Mookinator has about a 30% chance to actually live through 12P -5 even without it.

So, Zod spends 1 full IP shooting his 1 full auto wide and either kills or badly wounds 1x mookinator. Because you can't do multiple full autos...that's fine. He's a PC. If the shootist can't drop a mook in an Ip, thats a serious problem. The cover and the armor however, make him spend the full IP on that. SO Zod is in the window, blazing away merrily, as ballistics software neatly backtracks his convenient load of accessories.

Now, Mookinators B and C get to shoot. We'll say they slinging submachinegun fire because you don't like giving the drug dealers AKs. Fine. We'll even say they're at long range compared to Zod's medium.

AGI 3 + Auto 3 + Spec 2 + Smart 2 - Range 3 - short bursts completely comped (the ingram smartgun does this with no modification by the by..650 Nuyen), 2x attacks each at 7d6.

Zod has REA 5 + COVER 4 - WIDE 2 for the 1st.

1st 7d6 vs 7d6. We'll sya he has the luck of the PC, no hit.
2nd 7d6 vs 6d6. We'll go rule of three and say he still doesn't get hit.
3rd 7d6 vs 5d6. 1 net hit
4th 7d6 vs 4d6. 1 net hit

Assuming you won't load the baddies with anything but regular (because why would the most powerful syndicates in Seattle have an availability 8 or 12 ammo?)

Soak attack 3 6P/0 Zod we'll say has Bod 3...because he finally fixed it and somehow maintained his massive shooter DP. And after carefully consulting the body to armor rules, you let him get away with 10/8.

The odds say he'll end the IP with between 4 and 5 stun. If he didn't kill mookinator A, it'll be 7.

IP two. Repeat. Cram costs 10 yen.

Mookinator A, if not previously dead, is defintivley dead.
Mookinator B goes down. (the stats say that mook b will only be down 51% of the time given the 30% chance of survival for him and A)
Mookinator C shoots back. Miss, Hit. Same soak. 2 hits if the coin flip went against Zod. 7 Stun or unconcscious.

Yep. 3 average mooks with submachineguns have a 50/50 chance of taking the mighty Zod out in a straight cover to cover firefight at 80m. If you let them.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

That's the other thing, really: That's why they are mooks, there are SUPPOSED to be a ton of them.

As to the 1% magicians problem: LOOK, Those are MILLIONS!! of magicians. Even in the US (now) there should be 3 or MILLION magically active people. How many shadowrunners do you think there? I would say about 0.01% of the Population or even far less. You simply can't let runners get away with being the only mages. In a large plex with 1 million people there will be 10000 magically active people. Since most of those have a PRECIOUS! talent, they SHOULD be discovered, and helped in developing it. And I would say about 90% of them end up snugly in Corp employment. Not all of them will be combat mages, but still.

There might not be enough to put a mage with every 10 grunts, but everywhere it matters there should be a mage.

And now let's say the runners are outnumbered about 10 to 1 in any given high risk situation...

[Wiseman]

Well beyond leading the horse and are seriously trying to dunk it's head.