Elemental Strike? WTF? Options

[HunterHerne]

For shock fists and that's about it. Most of the rest fall under Blades, not Unarmed.

True. It is listed under blades, as well.

[Irion]

@DamienKnight

L.O.L. Nothing you can do against a Knife? You need to find a better self defense instructor.

I was not saying that. You should read what I write.
It is mostly, evade the knife and try to hit the guy hard or get cut and hit the guy hard. There are no blocks that would really work on a knife.
Or in other words: Every block has a high possibility you still get injured.
For that you do not need a good instructor, every instructor who is not a complete idiot is telling you that.

For example:
If you do a sideblock against a punch and you do it right you won't get hurt.
If you do the same thing against a knife, you possibly do not get hurt.
If a push a gun away from my body, I do not get shot.
If I push a knife away, I probably do not get sliced.

You do no get into godmode if you have a knife, it is just the simple fact, that even trying to hold on to your knife might seriously injure your opponent. Thats why fighting bare handed against a knife is such a bad idea.
If I have grapped the arm with the gun, it is no longer a threat. If I grapped the arm with the knife it is still a threat.

A gun can be fired from the hip, where you have no chance to swipe at it.

Because I can't touch you there or what? Because I would not move.

Oh, and the comment, 'Theres a reason soldiers carry knives'... yeah, its to cut stuff. I dont think they are going to drop their guns and pull their knives b/c an opponent closes within 21 feet...

Strawmen argument.

I dont care if the opponent is three feet away, I would prefer any automatic pistol to a knife.

So you would be killed.

Also, a knife has to strike you to hurt you, meaning an attack puts their limbs in reach of your own limbs, giving you an opportunity to disarm them.

Well, if you go at it like that, you are dead either way, I guess.

[Yerameyahu]

Yes: you are dead either way. That's how SR4 works, so obviously everything is fine. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

And your Practical Experience comes from where, exactly, Irion? It Sounds like you are just repeating things that you have heard. Do you actualy have ANY practical experience in this regard? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Irion]

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Kickboxing, Kungfu, Akido, Swordfighting, Jiu Jitsu, taekwondo and some seminars. Nothing really deep so. Only dambled in it for some years each.
So yes you are right. That is just basic knowledge, nothing deep. But I said that already.

[Whipstitch]

This is one of those things where frankly I don't even really care that much about practical experience given the inherent issues with sample sizes and all the variables such as the skills and speed of both parties, mental state and the specific weapons involved. I think ultimately you just need to accept that exercises like the Tueller drill are designed and evaluated through the prism of officer safety and due caution and thus isn't really concerned with "picking a winner" in a close range confrontation. From that standpoint, getting cut at all is reason to rethink your approach even if the officer ends up being the last man standing. Given that neither handguns or knives are known for being instantly incapacitating mutual injury is definitely on the table.

[Critias]

Given that neither handguns or knives are known for being instantly incapacitating mutual injury is definitely on the table.

And is, in fact, by far the most likely result.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Kickboxing, Kungfu, Akido, Swordfighting, Jiu Jitsu, taekwondo and some seminars. Nothing really deep so. Only dambled in it for some years each.
So yes you are right. That is just basic knowledge, nothing deep. But I said that already.

By practical experience I mean have you EVER had the actual experience of having to put your training into use, or is it still theoretical for you? You keep talking about studies and whatnot, but you have yet to say that you have ever been placed in that situation. Others, who have been in that situation, actively disagree with some of your points, and yet you dismiss that as not fitting your theoretical knowledge. Do you have any Practical Experience with the situation or not?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

This is one of those things where frankly I don't even really care that much about practical experience given the inherent issues with sample sizes and all the variables such as the skills and speed of both parties, mental state and the specific weapons involved. I think ultimately you just need to accept that exercises like the Tueller drill are designed and evaluated through the prism of officer safety and due caution and thus isn't really concerned with "picking a winner" in a close range confrontation. From that standpoint, getting cut at all is reason to rethink your approach even if the officer ends up being the last man standing. Given that neither handguns or knives are known for being instantly incapacitating mutual injury is definitely on the table.

This is very true... And is very often the actual case, as at least one person above has stated. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[DamienKnight]

I have seen a knife pulled in a confrontation, but without the intent of use. Their unarmed opponent backed up and grabbed one of the knife wielders friends and tried to put him in a headlock, I guess as an attempt to take a hostage or get a meat shield? This happened outside a study hall at a university where my friends and I were playing shadowrun. One of our players was asked to give a ride to someone he barely knew. He agreed, and when he stepped outside, some other guy showed up and started harassing the guy who asked for the ride. The guy asking for a ride got scared and pulled a large pocket knife, so the harasser grabbed our friend.

The instant our friend was involved, our GM started walking toward the guy, but one of our other players (used to be a football player in highschool) ran and clipped the harasser and brought him to the ground. They wrestled a bit until our friend who he had jumped recovered, then he proceeded to kick the harasser in the face until they broke apart.

Was really surreal afterward, when campus police showed up. They separated us and asked us all how it happened. First time I had ever been interrogated.

In the end, the guy who pulled the knife had run off. Later we got ahold of him and told him the Campus cops wanted to talk to him, and he got banned from campus for pulling a knife. We ended up inviting the guy to play SR with us and he became an integral part of the group. His characters were always psychopathic, and he was a little crazy himself. I boxed him once when he was a little drunk and he was losing, so he threw off the gloves and tackled me, and we proceeded to grapple around a yard full of broken beer bottles. I had to sleeper hold him to near unconsciousness before he calmed down.

Another time we were all wrestling at the gym. I put him in an arm lock and he BIT my LEG! Anyway, thats off topic.

One time when I was a senior in high school a Freshman who I suspect was on meth attacked me a with a pair of scissors. He came at me screaming with an overhead stab. I had a size advantage on him and had practiced the move a thousand times in martial arts class, so it was fairly easy for me to jump forward and grab his wrist when it was at full arc, then step past him while pulling his hand down behind me with both my own hands. He went to the ground and I twisted the scissors away, then sat on him for a minute until he stopped seething, then let him up and he ran off.

My Shorin-ryu karate instructor Studied in the Philippines, but got most of his fighting experience as a bouncer. Besides teaching a number of disarm techniques, his general advice for fighting an opponent with a knife is this:

1. Run Away
2. If that is not possible, then accept that you will not fight a knife weilder without getting cut. If you decide ahead of time that you know you are going to get cut and accept it, it will be less shocking when it happens, which it almost always will.
3. Pre-empt them by attacking the second they start to pull a knife.
4. Dont try and dodge over and over, you cant keep it up. Most opponents who are intent on cutting you will succeed within three swipes if you are simply dodging away.
5. If they already have it out, they will expect you to recoil as they strike. Watch for them to begin a strike and immediatly go for their attacking arm.

My own experience was against an inferior opponent, so its not the perfect example. In martial arts class we practiced against opponents wielding wooden knives, and sometimes practiced against an opponent wielding a permanent marker (obviously not a day when we were wearing our Gi). It was a great way to practice disarming without getting cut.

Still, I have shot pistols from a variety of positions, and feel confident that if I had a gun in hand and someone attacked me with a knife, I could use one hand to intercept their knife attack (probably getting cut or stabbed) while I kept the other hand out of their reach and used it to shoot them.

I would never jump into a knife fight for fun, sure, but I would never grab a knife to defend myself over a reliable firearm.

[Irion]

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Of that: Not enough to make a judgement on that. Sorry.
As an example of what I mean:
Once on some party a drunken guy thought it to be funny to strange me from behind with a chain.

First I thought to throw him over but then I realised that his attempt was futile to begin with. The guy was too weak compared to me.
So the risk of breaking stuff from the host was less than the nucance to be strangled by that guy. (I probably could have sung an opera at that point)
He realised that it might not be a good idea to continue if the other guy does not even bother to stop choosing the music.

This practical expirience would still not bring me to the conclusion that a strangle attack is "not much of a problem". I would rather go with the theoretical dangers I know from guy who have a training background or medical background or both.

Still, I have shot pistols from a variety of positions, and feel confident that if I had a gun in hand and someone attacked me with a knife, I could use one hand to intercept their knife attack (probably getting cut or stabbed) while I kept the other hand out of their reach and used it to shoot them.

Whats stopping the guy with the knife to do the same thing. And holding unto an arm with a pistol is much easier than holding on to an arm with a knife.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Of that: Not enough to make a judgement on that. Sorry.
As an example of what I mean:
Once on some party a drunken guy thought it to be funny to strange me from behind with a chain.

First I thought to throw him over but then I realised that his attempt was futile to begin with. The guy was too weak compared to me.
So the risk of breaking stuff from the host was less than the nucance to be strangled by that guy. (I probably could have sung an opera at that point)
He realised that it might not be a good idea to continue if the other guy does not even bother to stop choosing the music.

This practical expirience would still not bring me to the conclusion that a strangle attack is "not much of a problem". I would rather go with the theoretical dangers I know from guy who have a training background or medical background or both.

Was Curious, that's all... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Stalag]

My friend who introduced me to shadowrun has a cousin who was stabbed. Her step dad attacked her in the middle of the night and stabbed her 12 times in the chest with a kitchen knife. She survived... I agree knives should be able to kill with one shot, but so should a .22, but I dont think ramping its damage up would make any more sense.

I think real life has people glitching on their dodge tests, and in dramatic situations people are burning edge for critical successes... that is what gets people killed with one stab from a knife. That and called shots for damage.

No - the fact of the matter is that no game system that uses hit points (or damage capacity which, when you boil it down is the same thing.. 1box = 1hp) can effectively represent the seeming randomness of real life combat/weapons/injuries. There's no magic number of points everyone has that gets ticked off as they take damage... when someone gets injured it's the degree and location of the injury, a mysterious mix of physical factors, and not a small amount of blind stupid luck. Let take someone getting hit in the head with a baseball - sometimes this will result in concussion, sometimes including getting knocked unconscious, sometimes you'll just get a big welt on your head, but, in extremely rare circumstances, if it hits you at just the right spot and at just the right angle it can kill an otherwise healthy person. Similarly for taking a bullet or getting stabbed... one person gets stabbed in the chest and falls over dead within seconds, another gets stabbed in the chest 12 times and lives.. nothing to do with how tough they are or what their overall health is (or how well they dodge), it's just random blind luck that those 12 stabs didn't hit the right spot on the one person but the single stab on the other person did. Could you equate that to Edge? Maybe. But that still doesn't cover a single stab killing someone, in game terms.

Naturally a game that reflected this wouldn't be much fun unless the goal was to avoid combat or everyone ran around in full armor all the time. On the other hand, what this means is, if you stick strictly to RAW, you can't sneak up behind a guard and take them out by cutting their throats or snapping their necks (common movie tactics) because the rules don't make allowances for that.

My point is you can't relate in game damage and lethality to what would happen in real life - the core of the combat system is not realistic and as such the effectiveness of any type of attack is based on arbitrary values designed to make combat dangerous and exciting but not instantly lethal.

[Critias]

So how 'bout that Elemental Strike, huh? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[ggodo]

That's what this thread is about? I'd honestly forgotten.

[Paul]

Apparently we're all going to unzip shortly and compare scars.

[Irion]

@Stalag

Naturally a game that reflected this wouldn't be much fun unless the goal was to avoid combat or everyone ran around in full armor all the time.

Well, but you would need to account for a luckshot, stab bypassing the armor too...

My point is you can't relate in game damage and lethality to what would happen in real life - the core of the combat system is not realistic and as such the effectiveness of any type of attack is based on arbitrary values designed to make combat dangerous and exciting but not instantly lethal.

You can try to get close to it. The question is: Would it be worth it? You probably would need your character on an IPhone or even a laptop.

Back to Shadowrun:
If you get close to a guy melee weapons should be superior to ranged weapons. Thats just gamistic rule. Because if it is not that way, there is no sense in using melee weapons.
The easiest way to do that is allow to use reaction+dodge/melee if defending against a gun in close combat.
And while you can argue about firearms in close quaters, I guss with bows and assault cannons you are hitting a different thing.
But with the current rules it is as easy to fire a hold out pistol in melee distance and hit as it is with an assault cannon. Thats kind of silly in any way.

So I guess the best way to do it is:
First allow attribute+skill do defend against a shot in melee.
Second make the malus for beeing in melee depending on the size of the weapon. Lets say holdout -2 (offset by point blank) and assault cannon -8 or-10.

[Mäx]

Melee doesnt need to be a simple action... you are already allowed to attack as many opponents as you like with one action. Its simple for a skilled runner to drop two guys with one complex action in unarmed... just split your dice. You just need a monster dice pool to start with and maybe surprise or edge.

When comparing ranged and melee, that's not really a mcuh of an argument on favor of melee, as you can do the same splitting with a gun letting you attack 2 guys with one simple action.

[Ascalaphus]

It's also messy, because you can't attack the same guy twice. Which is odd; you can apparently kick everyone around you once, but not the same guy twice?

And with the heightened defense dice pool in close combat, splitting pools isn't too attractive, either.

[Stalag]

Back to Shadowrun:
If you get close to a guy melee weapons should be superior to ranged weapons. Thats just gamistic rule. Because if it is not that way, there is no sense in using melee weapons.

I agree - even in arbitrary game terms, and accounting for the natural unbalance inherent that should be there, melee vs ranged is terribly unbalanced. (I was really just arguing against the silly level to which people were trying to apply RL examples to SR combat)

The easiest way to do that is allow to use reaction+dodge/melee if defending against a gun in close combat.
And while you can argue about firearms in close quaters, I guss with bows and assault cannons you are hitting a different thing.
But with the current rules it is as easy to fire a hold out pistol in melee distance and hit as it is with an assault cannon. Thats kind of silly in any way.

So I guess the best way to do it is:
First allow attribute+skill do defend against a shot in melee.
Second make the malus for beeing in melee depending on the size of the weapon. Lets say holdout -2 (offset by point blank) and assault cannon -8 or-10,

I might take it farther...

• Once two combatants enter "melee" neither combatant can perform "ranged" attacks against each other but ranged weapons can still be used to attempt to shoot a melee opponent.
• Using a ranged weapon against a melee opponent is a complex action
• Using a ranged weapon against a melee opponent still uses Agi+Skill but it incurs a die penalty based on weapon size:
  
  • Pistols (any type): -3
  • SMG's (or equivelant): -5
  • Rifle's (any type): -7
  • Assault Cannon: -9
• Bows, rockets, etc cannot be used to shoot opponents in melee
• When using a ranged weapon in a melee, the farther away your opponent is the easier it is to get them in front of the barrel; so instead of working out Reach as normal, apply the defenders Reach as a bonus dice. (If someone is standing 5 feet away stabbing at you with a spear then you'll have an easier time shooting them than if they're wrestling with you).
• Using a ranged weapon in melee to defend against a melee attack uses your weapons melee equivalent stats and the appropriate Close Combat skill.
• When defending against a ranged weapon in melee combat you can use Reaction+Dodge or Agility+Gymnastics to dodge the attack or Agility+Skill to parry the barrel or arm to point it away from you. Ranged weapons cannot be blocked.
• The above only apply when attempting to shoot your opponent while in melee, using your ranged weapon as a melee weapon (bayonett on a rifle, pistol whipping, etc) follows normal melee rules

[Stalag]

When comparing ranged and melee, that's not really a mcuh of an argument on favor of melee, as you can do the same splitting with a gun letting you attack 2 guys with one simple action.

Not exactly - if you have two guns you can split your dice pool and attack one target with a simple action with both (with a negative modifier to your off-hand if you don't have Ambidexterity). If you use burst or full auto with a single weapon you can attack multiple targets, at -2 per additional target, with a simple action. Which is funny because at that point you're better off just blowing a complex action and using suppressive fire instead (assuming you can go full-auto).

[KarmaInferno]

No - the fact of the matter is that no game system that uses hit points (or damage capacity which, when you boil it down is the same thing.. 1box = 1hp) can effectively represent the seeming randomness of real life combat/weapons/injuries. There's no magic number of points everyone has that gets ticked off as they take damage... when someone gets injured it's the degree and location of the injury, a mysterious mix of physical factors, and not a small amount of blind stupid luck.

The closest thing I've seen was game systems that split the hit point pool into two groups - one usually representing "real" life-threatening damage and was usually very tiny, and a larger pool representing minor damage, stamina, luck, etc, basically the kinda of superficial stuff that you might recover quickly from.

Most standard attacks subtract from the stamina pool, but if that ran out, or the attack was a critical hit or a special type, points get taken off the Real Damage pool.

Shadowrun attempts a modified version of this, a Real Damage pool of 6 to 12 and a Stamina Pool that, rather than simply being a large pool that reduces, is a smaller pool that regenerates after each attack.

Where Shadowrun 4 kinda fails is the "random deadly damage" that can result from even regular attacks. It exists, in the form of spending Edge to get exploding dice, but since you have to decide to use Edge it's not as random as in earlier editions.



-k

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Not exactly - if you have two guns you can split your dice pool and attack one target with a simple action with both (with a negative modifier to your off-hand if you don't have Ambidexterity). If you use burst or full auto with a single weapon you can attack multiple targets, at -2 per additional target, with a simple action. Which is funny because at that point you're better off just blowing a complex action and using suppressive fire instead (assuming you can go full-auto).

You might want to look at the rules for shooting multiple people again... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Stalag]

You might want to look at the rules for shooting multiple people again... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Okay...

MULTIPLE TARGETS
If a character attacks multiple targets within a single Action Phase, he takes a –2 dice pool modifier per additional target. For example, if a character engages two targets with burst fire, he receives a –2 modifier for the second target.

ATTACKER USING A SECOND FIREARM
Characters can use two pistol- or SMG-class weapons, one in each hand, firing both with a single Simple Action. Doing so, however, re-quires that the character split his dice pool between the attacks. If two separate skills are being used (Pistols and Automatics), use the small-est dice pool. Split the pool before applying modifiers. Two-gun at-tacks also negate any dice pool bonuses from smartlinks or laser sights. Additionally, any uncompensated recoil modifiers applicable to one weapon also apply to the other weapon.

MULTIPLE TARGETS
If an attacker firing a semi-automatic weapon engages two different targets in the same Action Phase, apply a –2 dice pool modifier when attacking the second target.

MULTIPLE TARGETS
Bursts can only be fired at one target for each burst. If a burst-firing attacker engages two different targets in the same Action Phase (either with two separate short bursts or one short burst and one long burst), there is an additional –2 dice pool modifier when attacking
the second target.

MULTIPLE TARGETS
Full bursts may be made against more than one target as long as they are within one meter of each other, but in that case treat it as separate burst fire attacks against each target (one short and one long against two targets, or three short against three targets).

Where's the one I'm missing that says you can split a guns dice pool to attack two targets with a simple action?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Okay...

Where's the one I'm missing that says you can split a guns dice pool to attack two targets with a simple action?

You should Re-read "Attacker using a Second Firearm" and "Multiple Targets" again... 1 Gun, Split Pool, -2 to attack on 2nd target... I though that was pretty obvious... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)