Is it just me or is Elemental Strike MASSIVELY over-powered?

You have to have Killing Hands to pick it up, but activating it is a Simple Action that lasts for (Magic) turns.

But some of the effects are...insane.

Blast- Virtually guarantees a knockdown
Light- Halves the Impact armor of the target and inflicts a Glare modifier for one turn after the strike, can also ignite flammable materials.
Sand- Halves Impact armor and can jam weapons.
Smoke- Attack damage is Stun resisted as an inhalation vector toxin attack, no armor is used. Also gives Heavy Smoke vision penalty
Sound- Attack is treated as Stun damage but NO ARMOR defends against it except Silence/Hush spells. Also can (read: will) Nauseate and deafen an opponent.
Water- Impact armor is halved and the target is knocked down, unprotected electronics may short out.

Good gods, where is the drawback in this?

It's not just you. I would recommend house ruling it as giving the attack the elemental secondary effect, which makes it a lot less ludicrously overpowered. I mean, come on, it's only a 0.5 point power.

for melee you have to get in range. while approaching you get shot dead.
Simple action to activate means no hitting in this pass and no full dodging (while approaching) either.
Sound is sound. everybody in the building will hear it. Smoke sets of fire alarms. Water and Sand will probably start the cleaning drones *g*

I always thought Smoke was the worst, but a forum post recently opened my eyes to how jacked up Sound is. I see no reason to penalize Adepts for it though; a Mage can just toss one of these on you at will, from the safety of range, without having to waste a round powering up his hands first. What's unbalanced is the nature of the extra elemental effects in Street Magic, not the Elemental Strike power, IMO. Shadowrun has always had an issue with magic being a bit overpowered though; going back to at least 3rd edition (when I started playing) there wasn't much reason to *not* be Awakened unless you wanted to hack, and honestly, with trodes and AR in 4th, you could argue even that isn't true anymore.

At the same time, I've seen lots of munchkins in my time as a GM, and I've never seen anyone try to exploit elemental spells. They're usually considered a waste, since they still go against body; Stunball is far more popular since it's resisted with Willpower (which most people are low on) and takes away from Stun (which is always less than the physical damage track). Mind you, I disagree; A stunball is stoppable by a variety of means (magic resistance, high will, mana barrier, counterspelling, etc.) while an elemental effect just happens. But I just haven't seen this get exploited. If I was concerned about abuse of the magic rules (and I sometimes am), I would probably just ban Street Magic.

Uhm, that's not really the main reason that Stunbolt/Stunball is more popular. The drain code is versus the one for the elemental spells.

By RAW it does not on Elemental Strikes. The adept's punches do not have a Force, so the effect adds nothing. There are some sensible houserules but by RAW it simply does not work on strikes. Just wanted to point that out.

I've yet to see a player-built mage that has problems resisting drain. But when you need to drop a lot of people in a hurry, Stunball is probably your best bet. There is no armor mod that will help the targets resist it (unlike elemental spells), it's invisible to the naked eye, it's resisted with nothing but Willpower (...and counterspelling, but that's only if there's an enemy mage) and it only has to fill the stun condition monitor (the smaller of the two) to render the enemy helpless.

Best of all, no bodies to worry about. They're just asleep.

I still like elemental spells, personally, but I've never seen them in common use by players.

Wrong. They are resisted like a normal ranged attack with Reaction (+ Dodge). Physical Direct Combat Spells are resisted with Body.

The damage is still resisted with body (and half impact armor) after the target gets a chance to dodge. They're arguably a bad deal because you're risking drain for an effect that is essentially like firing a gun....of course, that ignores the fact that they ignore ballistic armor and cut impact armor in half.

Stunbolt is an average of 12 dice easier to resist the drain for than Lightning Bolt is at the same Force. That's not a small difference. That lets the mage overcast Stunbolt with ease. Which, again, is the main reason its actually chosen. The fact that Stun damage is generally a better idea for sneaky types is simply icing on the cake.

I'm also confused about why someone (it may have even been you) tried to make it seem like Counterspelling doesn't work against elemental spells, ditto for most other forms of magical protection; it's just as effective against them as anything else.

I may have been thinking of the old Elemental Manipulation spells, which were described as conjuring the element, then directing it at the target; this would make it seem as though counterspelling would be ineffective.

I don't have my book on me at the moment, but I can try to dig up my SR3 to see if that was it. I could have just been wrong, though. If they can be counterspelled, then they're an even worse deal.

I still disagree that the superior damage/disabling potential of stunbolt is a secondary reason for choosing it; when you're picking combat spells, you want to weigh all of the options.

Stunbolt has significantly lower Drain, can be overcast to produce superior take down potential, and is harder to resist. And you can still take Lightning Bolt or some other elemental combat spell for when you need to worry about drones or the like. Stunball is even better, as it still has lower drain but can affect a large number of opponents simultaneously.

They're win-win spells. I guarantee you that if elemental spells had significantly lower drain, like only +1 over Stunbolt, they'd be a lot more popular. Stunbolt would still be the winner, but they'd be used a lot more often than they are now.

Agreed. Elemental spells have been kind of a hard sell for as long as I've been playing the game (not that long, I only go back as far as SR3, which I sort of miss sometimes).

IMO, a mage who wants to deal with drones would be just as well served to load Ruger with AP rounds....all mages should have a backup weapon anyway, so you might as well put it to use.

You didn't specify that it was damage you were referring to. Even at Force 4 it's better than a gun because it's targetting -1/2 Impact Armor (which is almost always a lower armor than Ballistic, and then halved) and deals the same base dmg as a light pistol.


At my tables all Indirect Combat spells are at -2 Drain and all Direct Combat spells are at +2.

I absolutely agree, it's better damage than a gun. But I was speculating about reasons that people generally avoid the spells, and when you weigh the damage against the disadvantages (you can fire a gun twice in the time it takes to cast one spell, the drain involved, etc.) it doesn't add up except in specific situations (lightning bolt vs drones, for example).

But we're off-topic. The OP was saying that Elemental Strike is overpowered. I agree that the effects are terrifying, but I think it's mitigated by the following factors:

1. Melee attacks are a complex action. You only get to hit one person, ONCE, per IP.
2. Activating Elemental Strike is a Simple Action, so you have to waste a turn just on prep.
3. (this is the point that took us off topic) Mages can do the same thing, more easily, and from range.

They can do a similar thing, more easily and at range.

They can also do the same exact thing better in melee: see the Elemental Aura spell.

I like that house rule. I'd probably drop the stun discount as well since it is just as effective and has added value.

as for elemental strike. i am not sure it is too powerful, but the price like most adept powers is wonky. It halves armor on a lot of the types of strikes, smashing blow halves armor on a limited range of objects(barriers) and costs 1PP. Seems kind of silly that elemental strike would do the same thing but for cheaper and have additional effects/targets it works on. But hey critical strike is .25 pp and so is penetrating strike so silly cost structures seem the norm to me. They really should have dropped the .25 progression and a lot f the powers need to be rechecked for cost. But even with elemental strike you are hard pressed to make a HtH guy who is more effective than joe the automatic weapon wielding guy. For a lot less investment you can get no recoil while shooting and get awesome damage, decent AP, range, SA or complex action firing modes, less defense dice, more bonus dice to hit etc. So I am not too worried about elemental strike guy and his rare moments to shine.

The thing is, Adepts have a *very* limited amount of power points, and it is not an easy thing for them to get more. I don't have a problem with the value, especially since it requires Killing hands as well.

I've noticed this in a lot of people who complain about how overpowered certain melee options are lately. It's not that these options (Elemental Strike, Monofilament Whips, etc.) are drastically overpowered, it's that melee in general -- especially damage wise -- is abysmally underpowered in all but the most extreme examples.

*shrug* Context matters. Until the rest of melee is fixed, those options are locally overpowered, which can be an issue.

And the point is that melee is what needs to be fixed, not the options that are reasonable compared to other forms of attack.

Smoke and Sound are the Supermen of Elemental effects. They are super powerful but have a big weakness. Someone with a soundproof helmet with an airtight seal takes 0 damage from smoke and sound. Helmets are kryptonite for those overpowered elements. If you have someone using them too much, just give their opposition helmets more often. Helmets are great ways to contain a trode net, so I imagine they would be very popular in the future, especially amongst biker gangs and most security forces.

I think this is more of an issue of balance between Awakened and non-Awakened, not just a melee issue. If you were comparing a Soundbolt or Smokebolt to a gun, I imagine you'd still have problems.

There are plenty of crazy elements, if your GM starts cheating.

If anything I think Elemental Strike is the general sort of thing adepts should be getting with their power points. Spending 1 power point to be able to light your hands on fire and deal lots of extra damage is cool. Spending 1 power point for 2 extra dice on a few tests is boring.

Melee is. damage wise, quite good. The problem is, that you have Attribute+skill attack and defance.
And that it is not said how a shooter in melee combat is handled.
Can I just parade the gun instead of evading the bullet? (With reaction+melee?)
If not the gun is superior in melee. Thats stupid from a realistic point of view and from a gamistic point of view.

I dunno, all other things being equal, a guy with a knife pointed at your chest or a guy with a Super Warhawk pointed at your chest?

Gun wins. As I've said before (but maybe the other forums), there is a reason troops aren't equipped with swords and maces anymore (outside of some freak circumstances).

Average human throwing a punch: 1S damage.
Soft-capped human throwing a punch: 2S damage.
Average human using a katana: 4P damage, -1 AP.
Soft-capped human using a katana: 5P damage, -1 AP.

That's not "quite good." At best it's "almost average." Especially considering the logistics of carrying around a melee weapon versus a concealable firearm. Nevermind the fact that many firearms have burst capabilities (either off the shelf or with a little customization), significantly increasing their damage.

Otherwise I agree. Melee sucks mechanically compared to the other options, and it takes an exaggerated example to change that.

@Bigity
Ähm you know the 21 feet rule?


Actually I know I guy in Germany who is teaching the police force in self defance. They tested that. The guy with the knife won in 4 out of 5 or even 9 out of 10, I do not know anymore exactly. The point is, a firearm is a one vector attack. The guy you want to kill has to be exactly in front of your firearm. If not it does not work. The knife does not care if it slices or stings or does whatever else you want to do with it. Deadly is both.

To get to the military: There is a reason those guys still carry knifes even though they mostly fight over distance.

And the Vietnamese Tomahawks I've heard about. Less jungle cutting to be done in The Sandbox, but I've heard a number of soldiers swear by theirs.

Reminds me of a (fictional, but still highly rational) quote:

"We shot at the guys with swords first"
"Right, to deny the enemy their commanding officers"
"Fuck no, you ever had a guy waving a sword in your face? It's fucking scary."

(Paraphrased from Cryptonomicon)

I would assume that the Force is considered to be the DV of the attack or the Adept's Magic rating. Either way, that's almost a guaranteed knockdown.

Depends upon your averages I guess. I believe that your averages are off. You round up, so you are 1s (Str 1-2), 2s (Str 3-4) and 3s (Stre 5-6).

Average Human has 2-3 Strength, so Damage is 1-2s.
Softcapped/Maxed Human has 3s Damage.
Now, Martial Arts can increase that to 4-6s.

Guy with Sword (Average) has 4-5p
Softcapped Sword is 6p
MA can increase that by up to 3 as well, IIRC.

Seems pretty Decent to me.

Guns will ALWAYS trump Swords/Knives in equal circumstances. That is how it should be.
Melee (In Practice) sucks agains Guns ALWAYS, never mind the mechanics of a game.
Melee should never be as effective an option as firearms.

General consensus is Magic Rating, but by RAW the Force is 0 (only spells, spirits, and foci have Force).

I would actually go with Magic Rating, personally. That is the most direct comparison.

Damn, Ninja'd by Draco18s.

The penalty for guns in melee isn't that bad though, so you could easily just get 5P or so from guns, and be able to do it twice per round instead of once.

Definitely, No doubt about that...

Melee is about right - it is generally an inferior (and niche) option compared to firearms, but if you are willing to invest a lot into it, you can be fearsome at it. I find elemental strike as commonly interpreted to be overpowered because I am comparing it to the other melee options, not comparing it to firearms or spells.

I don't really have a problem with the value per se except the weird fluctuating values. I mean either smashing blow is way to expensive or elemental strike is on the cheap side. The pricing should be more consistent it what it gets you. Elemental strike is smashing blow+ and it only costs the same when you add in the killing hands cost. I trend more towards smashing blow is more expensive than it should be as are dozens of other powers, where the only power I think might be a bit cheap is critical strike. But I don't think it is worth .5 a level either so I am fine with it at .25 as long as they stick to that lame price structure.




If you are actually in some ones face melee is actually quite effective maybe even more effective than a firearm. And while what you say is true in a world of superhumans either through magic or tech there is no need for it to remain true on a logical or game mechanics sense.

The issue is getting there in the first place. IF you can close without getting killed, then yes, Melee has its place. It is just hard to put it in practice, most of the time.

In close quarters, a skilled melee fighter should take a skilled gun fighter apart. That is not currently the case. I think if melee attacks were a simple action instead of complex it might properly balance the game.

From experience:
Don't do that.

The melee guy will go from "being kinda ok, but feeling left out" to "hogging the spotlight."

The last game I was in, we had two melee players, one with a monofilament whip, the other with poisoned cyberspurs. They were both stealth monkies, so sneaking up behind people wasn't even hard for them. They'd one-hit the NPCs. As in "even if he rolls all 6s on his damage resistance test, he dies" kind of one-hit.

And then they'd do it twice a pass (two guards standing next to each other) for three passes (kill two, move, kill two more, move).

Elemental strike was known to be overpowered, even back in the 80's.
For example, two light elemental strike adepts (warning, bit of swearing): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWVhiIisH30

Yes, they carry knives. To use when they are the best choice. Not because they are the first choice. And a rifle in close quarters isn't exactly the same as having a handgun or machine pistol or something.

As for the whole 'guy has to be in front of your gun'. Well...yea. The knife has to go into someone's flesh for it to work. That's kind of the way weapons work in general.

Best of both worlds: Bayonet!

Gunblades!

And you don't think the stealthmonkey with the silenced Assassult rifle can't do the same damn thing?

i still want a silencer for a Burst-Fire/Full-Auto Shotgun <.<

Can the stealthguy with the silenced assault rifle get that gun through an air conditioning vent?

Easy Breakdown.