When did arrows/bolts start going against ballistic armor? Options

[JonathanC]

I was just perusing my SR4A, pondering crossbows and whatnot, when I noticed that the rule I was expecting to see there (about arrows/bolts going against Impact armor) wasn't there. When did this change? I swear in 3rd edition it was Impact, and I thought that carried over to 4th edition as well. I'm pretty sure I've heard that kevlar doesn't protect that well against arrows....was I misinformed?

[Yerameyahu]

They wear Kevlar against knives, so I wouldn't worry about realism. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[JonathanC]

They wear Kevlar against knives, so I wouldn't worry about realism. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

...but at least knives go against the Impact rating of the kevlar vest, which is lower. When did arrows come to be treated like bullets in Shadowrun? It certainly wasn't always this way.

[Bigity]

Probably with trolls with high enough strength and custom bows so that the arrows reach bullet-velocity speeds ;P

[JonathanC]

Probably with trolls with high enough strength and custom bows so that the arrows reach bullet-velocity speeds ;P

Troll bows are useless; the core book states that bow strengths max out at 6, so the most you could ever get for base damage is 8P.

[Bigity]

It was a tongue in cheek response anyway.

[Traul]

Troll bows are useless; the core book states that bow strengths max out at 6, so the most you could ever get for base damage is 8P.

Then screw the bow and throw the arrows (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Kevlar doesn't have an Impact Rating, because it's real life. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Nevermind.

Anyway, arrows in SR4 are presumably bullet-like (what do they call them, 'field points'?), as opposed to what I assume are 'broad head' knife-y arrows.

[Kirk]

Troll bows are useless; the core book states that bow strengths max out at 6, so the most you could ever get for base damage is 8P.

12, not 6.

Material science limits high-tech bows to a maximum Strength rating of 12. The maximum Damage Value an arrow fired from the bow can inflict is equal to the bow’s rating x1.5. -- SR4A 316

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

12, not 6.

8 not 12... See the Errata...
Both My copy of the PDF and Hard Book (as well as the Precious) all have 8 as the maximum Bow Strength Rating.

[Draco18s]

Anyway, arrows in SR4 are presumably bullet-like (what do they call them, 'field points'?), as opposed to what I assume are 'broad head' knife-y arrows.

Field points are the modern "standard" tip, shaped like a bullet (they're like target points (points used when firing at archery targets) but with a shoulder as to not get lodged in trees and other hard objects).

Broadheads are the knife-like ones, modern arrows have 3 sides to them (compared to the classic stone two-edged ones).

There are also "saftey arrows" which have very wide, often padded, tips that are "safe" to shoot at people (they'll still hurt like a bitch and CAN cause you to bleed, depending on the design of the head; I've been told that they'll still punch right through a rabbit, however).

[JonathanC]

8 not 12... See the Errata...
Both My copy of the PDF and Hard Book (as well as the Precious) all have 8 as the maximum Bow Strength Rating.

Mine too, but Availability will prevent you from getting anything higher than a 6 at chargen. A STR 8 bow is more of an Ork Bow than a Troll Bow, IMO. A Troll is likely to get a better deal from a throwing knife, especially if he's an Adept.

I'm just curious about when/why the "arrows are ballistic" change occurred. It makes them a lot less attractive as a weapon, IMO.

[Neraph]

I'm just curious about when/why the "arrows are ballistic" change occurred. It makes them a lot less attractive as a weapon, IMO.

I guess it kinda makes sense, but I'm house ruling it the old way at my table.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Mine too, but Availability will prevent you from getting anything higher than a 6 at chargen. A STR 8 bow is more of an Ork Bow than a Troll Bow, IMO. A Troll is likely to get a better deal from a throwing knife, especially if he's an Adept.

I'm just curious about when/why the "arrows are ballistic" change occurred. It makes them a lot less attractive as a weapon, IMO.

I have a Throwing Adept that uses Shuriken/Knives. The issue is that he does not have any range beyond 95 Meters or so.
So, instead of using modern firearms to reach out and touch someone, he uses a Strength 8 Bow. Now he can reach out to 500 meters or so. And all without that annoying Noise that a Firearm entails.

As far as Damage goes. A Strength 8 Bow inflicts 10p Base Damage (Better than any other Man-Portable Firearm out there). Honestly, I am okay with it applying to Ballistic at that point.

[Neraph]

So, instead of using modern firearms to reach out and touch someone, he uses a Strength 8 Bow. Now he can reach out to 500 meters or so. And all without that annoying Noise that a Firearm entails.

Gun + Electronic Firing + Built-In Silencer + Subsonic Ammo = -9 to Perception Tests to notice the gun being used.

[Kirk]

8 not 12... See the Errata...
Both My copy of the PDF and Hard Book (as well as the Precious) all have 8 as the maximum Bow Strength Rating.

Thank you.

You'd think I'd remember to check that, but noooooo. (blush) Someday I'll actually pen the changes into place.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Gun + Electronic Firing + Built-In Silencer + Subsonic Ammo = -9 to Perception Tests to notice the gun being used.

Sure, and My Guy with 20+ Dice to Perception (Sound) will still hear it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Point being that even though it will be quieter, it is STILL NOT SILENT. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

He didn't mention the various threshold mods that would also be in place, but that's not really the point. A bow that powerful is making noise, too.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

He didn't mention the various threshold mods that would also be in place, but that's not really the point. A bow that powerful is making noise, too.

Possibly, but Far Less noise than a Silenced Gun would.
Having Bow Hunted, Gone to the Ranges (Bow and Gun) and Hunted with Firearms, I can guarantee you that a Bow is downright Silent compared to a Gun, even a silenced one (Have used those too, both Crappy and Good) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[CanRay]

Sure, and My Guy with 20+ Dice to Perception (Sound) will still hear it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Point being that even though it will be quieter, it is STILL NOT SILENT. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

He'd also hear the fly fart on the wall across the room and the sound of the Lesbian Elf Stripper Ninja's last bit of morals slipping away. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

He'd also hear the fly fart on the wall across the room and the sound of the Lesbian Elf Stripper Ninja's last bit of morals slipping away. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Yes Indeed, especially the Lesbian Elf Stripper Ninja's Morals... I like that one... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Don't try your realism arguments. Even if they mattered, I doubt you've used a troll bow. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[CanRay]

Don't try your realism arguments. Even if they mattered, I doubt you've used a troll bow. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Can a Troll Bow hit a Lesbian Elf Stripper Ninja's morals? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

*Shrugs* Nothing is completely silent. Even using a blade is going to make some noise. Just the least amount of noise used is better. Also, you can use distraction to prevent people from hearing things. Silence Spells, White Noise Generators, A Low-Rider with the music cranked up really high driving down the street...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Don't try your realism arguments. Even if they mattered, I doubt you've used a troll bow. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Heh... I usually top out at a 70 Pound Bow. Not the Biggest I have seen to be sure, and I have seeen some crazy Draw Weight Bows in my time. And while they do make noise, it is negligible compared to a firearm. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

But your point is taken (somewhat). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

EDIT: Not sure you can even Buy a bow with Draw Weights above 70 lb. anymore. At least I cannot find any.

[Kirk]

Heh... I usually top out at a 70 Pound Bow. Not the Biggest I have seen to be sure, and I have seeen some crazy Draw Weight Bows in my time. And while they do make noise, it is negligible compared to a firearm. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

But your point is taken (somewhat). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

EDIT: Not sure you can even Buy a bow with Draw Weights above 70 lb. anymore. At least I cannot find any.

You usually have to get heavier draws specialty or even custom made as they don't sell enough to justify mass production. If you're interested beyond casual knowledge let me know and I'll give you a couple of links. (I don't use them, it's just another set of odd knowledge I've got tucked around.)