I was just perusing my SR4A, pondering crossbows and whatnot, when I noticed that the rule I was expecting to see there (about arrows/bolts going against Impact armor) wasn't there. When did this change? I swear in 3rd edition it was Impact, and I thought that carried over to 4th edition as well. I'm pretty sure I've heard that kevlar doesn't protect that well against arrows....was I misinformed?

They wear Kevlar against knives, so I wouldn't worry about realism.

...but at least knives go against the Impact rating of the kevlar vest, which is lower. When did arrows come to be treated like bullets in Shadowrun? It certainly wasn't always this way.

Probably with trolls with high enough strength and custom bows so that the arrows reach bullet-velocity speeds ;P

Troll bows are useless; the core book states that bow strengths max out at 6, so the most you could ever get for base damage is 8P.

It was a tongue in cheek response anyway.

Then screw the bow and throw the arrows

Kevlar doesn't have an Impact Rating, because it's real life. Nevermind.

Anyway, arrows in SR4 are presumably bullet-like (what do they call them, 'field points'?), as opposed to what I assume are 'broad head' knife-y arrows.

12, not 6.

8 not 12... See the Errata...
Both My copy of the PDF and Hard Book (as well as the Precious) all have 8 as the maximum Bow Strength Rating.

Field points are the modern "standard" tip, shaped like a bullet (they're like target points (points used when firing at archery targets) but with a shoulder as to not get lodged in trees and other hard objects).

Broadheads are the knife-like ones, modern arrows have 3 sides to them (compared to the classic stone two-edged ones).

There are also "saftey arrows" which have very wide, often padded, tips that are "safe" to shoot at people (they'll still hurt like a bitch and CAN cause you to bleed, depending on the design of the head; I've been told that they'll still punch right through a rabbit, however).

Mine too, but Availability will prevent you from getting anything higher than a 6 at chargen. A STR 8 bow is more of an Ork Bow than a Troll Bow, IMO. A Troll is likely to get a better deal from a throwing knife, especially if he's an Adept.

I'm just curious about when/why the "arrows are ballistic" change occurred. It makes them a lot less attractive as a weapon, IMO.

I guess it kinda makes sense, but I'm house ruling it the old way at my table.

I have a Throwing Adept that uses Shuriken/Knives. The issue is that he does not have any range beyond 95 Meters or so.
So, instead of using modern firearms to reach out and touch someone, he uses a Strength 8 Bow. Now he can reach out to 500 meters or so. And all without that annoying Noise that a Firearm entails.

As far as Damage goes. A Strength 8 Bow inflicts 10p Base Damage (Better than any other Man-Portable Firearm out there). Honestly, I am okay with it applying to Ballistic at that point.

Gun + Electronic Firing + Built-In Silencer + Subsonic Ammo = -9 to Perception Tests to notice the gun being used.

Thank you.

You'd think I'd remember to check that, but noooooo. (blush) Someday I'll actually pen the changes into place.

Sure, and My Guy with 20+ Dice to Perception (Sound) will still hear it.
Point being that even though it will be quieter, it is STILL NOT SILENT.

He didn't mention the various threshold mods that would also be in place, but that's not really the point. A bow that powerful is making noise, too.

Possibly, but Far Less noise than a Silenced Gun would.
Having Bow Hunted, Gone to the Ranges (Bow and Gun) and Hunted with Firearms, I can guarantee you that a Bow is downright Silent compared to a Gun, even a silenced one (Have used those too, both Crappy and Good)

He'd also hear the fly fart on the wall across the room and the sound of the Lesbian Elf Stripper Ninja's last bit of morals slipping away.

Yes Indeed, especially the Lesbian Elf Stripper Ninja's Morals... I like that one...

Don't try your realism arguments. Even if they mattered, I doubt you've used a troll bow.

Can a Troll Bow hit a Lesbian Elf Stripper Ninja's morals?

*Shrugs* Nothing is completely silent. Even using a blade is going to make some noise. Just the least amount of noise used is better. Also, you can use distraction to prevent people from hearing things. Silence Spells, White Noise Generators, A Low-Rider with the music cranked up really high driving down the street...

Heh... I usually top out at a 70 Pound Bow. Not the Biggest I have seen to be sure, and I have seeen some crazy Draw Weight Bows in my time. And while they do make noise, it is negligible compared to a firearm.

But your point is taken (somewhat).

EDIT: Not sure you can even Buy a bow with Draw Weights above 70 lb. anymore. At least I cannot find any.

You usually have to get heavier draws specialty or even custom made as they don't sell enough to justify mass production. If you're interested beyond casual knowledge let me know and I'll give you a couple of links. (I don't use them, it's just another set of odd knowledge I've got tucked around.)

Always Interested (if for no other reason than the knowledge), and I am considering replacing my Current Bow... You could PM me, and that should work out well.

You're right, it was impact armor in SR3. They changed it with SR4, not SR4A, although I was like you and assumed projectile weapons went against impact armor.

*Eyebrow raise*

While bows go through kevlar pretty easily, I just assumed that Ballistic armor is some sort of weird, future material. In between 2064 and 2070, they wonked it so it works against bows.

If you don't like that, then just say it goes against Impact armor in your game. No one from the Tabletop RPG police will come and arrest you.

Or maybe they will and this is just a conspiracy to get the free thinking people the world under thought control!

You're referring to a discipline there; the rules (and I) are referring to the difference in how an arrow applies force versus how a bullet applies force. Being shot with an arrow while wearing armor designed to protect from bullets is a bit like being stabbed while wearing that armor.

I was questioning the phrase "projectile weapons" as "guns" are "projectile weapons."

I had a Troll NPC be a Projectile Weapon, and a Dwarf NPC be the Projectile!

Ah, I see. The distinction there is made in the SR core book, not by me. Guns are referred to as "firearms", bows and crossbows are referred to as "projectile weapons".

Exactly. And when I was talking about my assumption, it was an assumption that a certain weapon type would be resisted by the same type of armor it was resisted by in a previous edition. Even though I know SR4 was a drastic redesign of the rules, there are still occasional little things like that which trip me up.

I thought I made it pretty clear, but normal arrows *aren't* acting different from bullets. They're not like knives, and AFAIK don't exceptionally pierce kevlar in reality. Is this not the case?

A quick walk on google suggests that this is not the case: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qi...30092216AAj7Vry

I don't trust random yahoos on the internet.

Again, AFAIK, arrows are not knifelike. Draco18s seems to agree. Instead, they are bulletlike: pointed, blunt-ish tips. The difference is confined to their speed, which isn't what you've said.

Well, if you don't believe it you could easily contact Second Chance armor and confirm.

It's hard to read the crazy. They appear to be talking about broadhead arrows? I'm fundamentally not. Presumably, both kinds could exist in SR4.

It depends on the head. There are some that are knife-like, there are some that are as you describe. Just as a point of info, mind, as I've no desire to go to the chartmaster type of game cross-referencing all variations would lead to.

Yes, but I think I pretty clearly laid out the two types early, which is what Draco18s confirmed for me. My assumption is indeed that SR4 'default' arrows are 'field tip', not 'broadhead'. This assumption is motivated by the fact that they use Ballistic armor. It does make sense that broadheads are knifelike, and therefore use Impact armor; if these are 'default', then the Ballistic change is indeed an error.

Incidentally, where does it specify which armor for thrown, projectile, etc? I can't recall ever looking.

If the Troll is also a lesbian, then yes, they can hit it

"Troll Bows and the Lesbian Elf Strippers that love them, tonight, on Heldaro!"

SR4A p. 160.

Bullets, bolts and arrows.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fleches-...es-p1000615.jpg

Arrows can conceivably do blunt damage, slashing, piercing, or any other type you'd like to specify. Yes, even chemical.

... the Green Arrow lives...

Bonus: If you go by the fluff on p160, nothing makes sense. Heh.

"Did he just shoot an arrow with an empty jug of bleach at us?" "Yeah... I think he's got budget issues."

Kevlar works in two primary ways: It has strong long-strand fibers which attempt to spread out the impact forces, and it entangles bullets with it's structure due to the bullet spinning, which causes the bullet to tear off a wad of the Kevlar as it impacts, eating up the bullet's energy.

Arrows tend to go through it because they often slip between the weave, rather than interacting with it.

Whatever the Ballistic Armor of SR4 is, it ain't Kevlar.



-k