Dual Weapon's and Smartgun Links Options

[ggodo]

Ammo is interchangeable according to the ammo section. The Ares does not specifically state like the Mossberg shotgun does that it can only load flechette ammo.

That's. . . that's kinda funny. I'm picturing explosive flechettes now.

[Critias]

Because I prefer to load EXEX rounds into my SmartGun modded Ares Sliverguns.

That's a pretty creative interpretation of what an Ares Viper can do. I'll just say that you're not playing it the same way I am, or the way I ever have, and leave it at that.

[Miri]

That's a pretty creative interpretation of what an Ares Viper can do. I'll just say that you're not playing it the same way I am, or the way I ever have, and leave it at that.

Oh there was a very large tree in another thread when I brought that up also. As I said there and above, the write up of the Slivergun does not specifically say it can only fire flechette ammo. Nothing creative about it.

With normal ammo it is a 6p -0AP gun with stock burst fire and sound suppressor.

[ggodo]

Traditionally it is a flechette weapon.

[Critias]

Oh there was a very large tree in another thread when I brought that up also. As I said there and above, the write up of the Slivergun does not specifically say it can only fire flechette ammo. Nothing creative about it.

With normal ammo it is a 6p -0AP gun with stock burst fire and sound suppressor.

I think you're grossly misinterpreting the spirit of the weapon in order to get a burst-fire-capable, integrally silenced, hand cannon at a minimal cost and fuss, and it absolutely wouldn't fly at my table...but I'm not your GM, and more and more I think that's probably for the best.

[Medicineman]

Ammo is interchangeable according to the ammo section. The Ares does not specifically state like the Mossberg shotgun does that it can only load flechette ammo.

Sorry, but thats Wrong
the Ares Viper Slivergun is a Flechette only Pistol !

Hough !
Medicineman

[Ol' Scratch]

The weapon's description specifically states: "It fires metal slivers that count as flechette ammunition (already factored in to the Damage Code)." It doesn't even use flechette ammo, but instead uses its own unique ammo type that simply uses the same game mechanics as flechette. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.

Using your insane logic, the Panther XXL assault cannon can be loaded with any ammunition since the description never says it only fires its own special ammo (it just says it does have its own special ammo which, somehow, means two separate things in Crazytown). Likewise, the Ares S-III Super Squirt can be loaded with, heck, anti-tank rounds since its description never actually says you can't. Hooray!

[Saint Sithney]

You also know that the slivergun doesn't accept gas vents, right?
That's a separate thing that might get in the way of your plans.

[Shinobi Killfist]

TacNets are a problem in themselves. They provide an unrealistic bonus.
Either the information that they provide is so specific and predictive that a person using one would be 1) overwhelmed or 2) just following instructions, or the information they provide is so generic that it's 1) irrelevant or 2) something the person should already know from their training and experience.

It's just dice bloat like Emotitoys/Empathy Sensor Software. Something that every pro has by default just to demonstrate the gap between professionals and chuds.

But really, it's like a machine is doing your job for you, and it would be more akin to a secondary viewpoint (like a teamwork test) than a bonus. IOW, if it knows where your gun is pointed and is to accurate at predicting enemy movements, why doesn't it just pull the trigger for you.


As to why laser sights and smartlinks don't work while you're shooting two guns at the same time, the RL answer is easy.
When you shoot two guns at once, you are no longer aiming. You're just counting on your ability to point and shoot.

I pretty much hate tacnets for the dice pool bloat. Also all I really think all they should do is cancel some penalties like indirect fire penalties or help you avoid getting flanked and other location oriented things.

[ggodo]

I pretty much hate tacnets for the dice pool bloat. Also all I really think all they should do is cancel some penalties like indirect fire penalties or help you avoid getting flanked and other location oriented things.

I'll drink to that.

[Grinder]

This topic has generated some very unfriendly postings and general tone. Rember the ToS (1. Personal attacks, flaming, trolling, and baiting are prohibited. This includes any form of racism, sexism or religious intolerance.) and keep it civil. We don't want to close the thread and hand out Warnings (we have quite a few posters active in this thread on our watchlist).

[Miri]

This topic has generated some very unfriendly postings and general tone. Rember the ToS (1. Personal attacks, flaming, trolling, and baiting are prohibited. This includes any form of racism, sexism or religious intolerance.) and keep it civil. We don't want to close the thread and hand out Warnings (we have quite a few posters active in this thread on our watchlist).

Noted.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

TacNets are a problem in themselves. They provide an unrealistic bonus.
Either the information that they provide is so specific and predictive that a person using one would be 1) overwhelmed or 2) just following instructions, or the information they provide is so generic that it's 1) irrelevant or 2) something the person should already know from their training and experience.

It's just dice bloat like Emotitoys/Empathy Sensor Software. Something that every pro has by default just to demonstrate the gap between professionals and chuds.

But really, it's like a machine is doing your job for you, and it would be more akin to a secondary viewpoint (like a teamwork test) than a bonus. IOW, if it knows where your gun is pointed and is to accurate at predicting enemy movements, why doesn't it just pull the trigger for you.

Hehe, it does seem strange that something that flat-out tells you where your bullet is going to land can give LESS of a bonus than something that just gives you general sensory information and predictions. Sure, if the Tacnet were to tell you that, 0.33 seconds from now a guy will come out from behind THAT corner, then your super-speed sammy can already fire the round that will hit him when his head comes out. Now that's... the stuff of movies and legends (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) .

I think the Tacnet was designed as a general tool to make GM-troops better: As in, that corporate strike force that is just made up of the same NPCs that are written in the book needs some more dice. Oh, let's give it a tacnet, we don't have to do all the math, as players have to.

Seriously Tacnets are the shits in this scenario. I had my group of runners trying to sneak past a military perimeter which was also an R3 or even R4 tacnet. That gave these autonomous stationary drones quite a few dice to roll, and my runners couldn't get past without Edge.

So... dice pool bloat aside, it's a thing to separte amateurs from pros. And as that it works ok. But it has to be assumed that at some point simply everyone important will have one.

[Mäx]

Ammo is interchangeable according to the ammo section. The Ares does not specifically state like the Mossberg shotgun does that it can only load flechette ammo.

ROLF.
No it just very clearly states that it doesn't fire anykind of actual bullets at all.

[Yerameyahu]

The Slivergun certainly fires only slivers. It's totally special in that respect, though other weapons could be similarly restricted.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Oh there was a very large tree in another thread when I brought that up also. As I said there and above, the write up of the Slivergun does not specifically say it can only fire flechette ammo. Nothing creative about it.

With normal ammo it is a 6p -0AP gun with stock burst fire and sound suppressor.

Excuse Me? What? *Shakes Head* *Head to Desk*

[Yerameyahu]

I am establishing an understanding of the player who takes Edge 7, and needs akimbo to be as good as single-gun characters. :/

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I am establishing an understanding of the player who takes Edge 7, and needs akimbo to be as good as single-gun characters. :/

No, I get that Yerameyahu; What I do not get is the position that the Sliver Gun can fire alternative "Ammo." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

No, I meant that I am beginning to compile these little hints in my mind. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I wasn't talking to you at all, hehe. Just thinking about the kind of person who thinks the Viper can shoot bullets.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

No, I meant that I am beginning to compile these little hints in my mind. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I wasn't talking to you at all, hehe. Just thinking about the kind of person who thinks the Viper can shoot bullets.

Gotcha... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

Miri I think the problem people are having is that you are taking the slavishly literal interpretation of the rules. I'm not saying there aren't cases where that can't be fun, or even produce working results where the intended rule might not. It might also be a case of history - the slivergun is known throughout the editions. It ALWAYS fired slivers. It used to suck (I think). Now it doesn't.

As a hyperbole:
The rules say "the slivergun fires slivers". They don't say, "the slivergun fires slivers and nothing else". So clearly, the slivergun must be able to shoot cucumbers. However, it is implied that it would in fact have to be cucumber slivers, because firing slivers is a special case of firing ammo, which most other guns are implied at doing, and the special case isn't overridden by the freedom of ammo selection that you quote in your reasoning. So by your interpretation, the slivergun should be capable of firing all kinds of ammo - as metal slivers. However, sticking with slavishly literal, that would always also count as flechette, because all the ammo is metal slivers (even the ExEx or APDS kind), and all slivers still count as flechettes. You could even have flechette slivers, which produce a gun at 10P/+10AP. So this is the slavishly sliverish doctrine.

So now slavishly sliverish produced some kind of monstrosity that completely deviates from everything we know about the game. When in fact, the gun as is is already perfectly fine, because it already cheats, and is clearly better than all normal HPists with flechettes.

I'm not saying you deserve ridicule, or even real criticism. It's your game, whatever flies with you. I had fun with this post.

[Dreadlord]

So, I tried out paired pistols with laser sights at the range today. Fortunately the range owner is a friend so he humored me.

Firing a 9mm Glock 17 and a Taurus PT840 .40, each with lasers and properly sighted in, at a 10 yard range at human-shaped paper targets spaced 20 feet apart:

2 targets, 2 pistols, no lasers: Damn that's difficult. I ended up really focusing on one and then the other much of the time, really. Missed most shots.
2 targets, 2 pistols, with lasers: Easier but still a pain. I could get some body shots on both targets but any more precision (like specific body areas) was about impossible.

1 target, 2 pistols, no lasers: Moderately difficult as sighting down the barrels of two pistols required more things to keep track of than usual. Missed a number of shots.
1 target, 2 pistols, with lasers: Again, easier. I could consistently group within a one foot circle. Which is much worse that my usual single-pistol groupings, but hey.

Each test was performed with 6-8 shots per pistol.

Really, my biggest observation is that when firing with iron sights, you have to keep track of at least three objects, the rear sight, the front sight, and the target. To hit you need to line up all three. With the laser sight you only have to keep track of two, the laser dot and the target. Aiming using laser sight is almost instinctive, rather than the conscious thought that goes into lining up iron sights.

In all cases, shooting with the laser sight was easier than shooting without the laser.

That was a fun twenty bucks worth of ammo to spend. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)



-k

You, sir, are fucking awesome! For Science (well, game mechanics, anyway)!

[Dreadlord]

Miri I think the problem people are having is that you are taking the slavishly literal interpretation of the rules. I'm not saying there aren't cases where that can't be fun, or even produce working results where the intended rule might not. It might also be a case of history - the slivergun is known throughout the editions. It ALWAYS fired slivers. It used to suck (I think). Now it doesn't.

As a hyperbole:
The rules say "the slivergun fires slivers". They don't say, "the slivergun fires slivers and nothing else". So clearly, the slivergun must be able to shoot cucumbers. However, it is implied that it would in fact have to be cucumber slivers, because firing slivers is a special case of firing ammo, which most other guns are implied at doing, and the special case isn't overridden by the freedom of ammo selection that you quote in your reasoning. So by your interpretation, the slivergun should be capable of firing all kinds of ammo - as metal slivers. However, sticking with slavishly literal, that would always also count as flechette, because all the ammo is metal slivers (even the ExEx or APDS kind), and all slivers still count as flechettes. You could even have flechette slivers, which produce a gun at 10P/+10AP. So this is the slavishly sliverish doctrine.

So now slavishly sliverish produced some kind of monstrosity that completely deviates from everything we know about the game. When in fact, the gun as is is already perfectly fine, because it already cheats, and is clearly better than all normal HPists with flechettes.

I'm not saying you deserve ridicule, or even real criticism. It's your game, whatever flies with you. I had fun with this post.

Snort! Slavishly sliverish! Hah! THERE'S a tongue-twister!
You, sir, win the internets!

[Snow_Fox]

A cucumber gun? Is that like a potato gun?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

A cucumber gun? Is that like a potato gun?

More like a Mini-Marshmallow Gun, I would think. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)