Dual Weapon's and Smartgun Links Options

[Miri]

Yes.. let us hold slavishly to the rules instead of working with the player to make the character he wants to make to help enjoy the GAME..

[Draco18s]

Yes.. let us hold slavishly to the rules instead of working with the player to make the character he wants to make to help enjoy the GAME..

I want to make a character that hits people with trees.

500 pound trees.

Uprooted.

Fresh.

I can do that, yeah?

[Miri]

I want to make a character that hits people with trees.

500 pound trees.

Uprooted.

Fresh.

I can do that, yeah?

A Scottish Troll Cabertosser? Sounds interesting.

[Critias]

Yes.. let us hold slavishly to the rules instead of working with the player to make the character he wants to make to help enjoy the GAME..

No one's saying you can't house rule it if you want to. They're just pointing out that the rule exists, that the rule is pretty clear, and sharing what we think to be the primary reasons for the rule (game balance).

It's worth pointing out that even in canon the rule's been broken -- Teachdaire, back in Prime Runners -- so there's a "canon" precedent that's been set for dual-smartlink-technology being possible. If you want to allow it for a PC, if you want to encourage a PC to tap their contacts and sink some money and Essence into a custom rig, if you want to just say by the mid 2070s every smartlink is capable of handling multiple weapons...that's perfectly okay. No one's gonna come to your house and demand your books and dice, or anything.

[JonathanC]

Yes.. let us hold slavishly to the rules instead of working with the player to make the character he wants to make to help enjoy the GAME..

I demand that my mage be the only mage who can teleport. Also, I have infinity health. Also, I get 4 free successes on all skill rolls, and I am trained in all skills.



Let's not pretend like it's impossible to have fun within the boundaries of the rules. He's losing two dice on a firearms test; it's not the end of the world. Who the hell expects guns akimbo to be hyper-accurate anyway? This isn't Equilibrium: The Game.

[Critias]

Who the hell expects guns akimbo to be hyper-accurate anyway? This isn't Equilibrium: The Game.

Given how die pool splits work, it's actually scarily effective.

[JonathanC]

Given how die pool splits work, it's actually scarily effective.

Then nobody should be complaining about the lack of smartlink bonuses.

[Mäx]

What are you talking about? The camera is part of the Smartlink enhancement to the gun, as far as I know.

Yes the smartlink package includes a camera, but the camera has nothing to do with the shooting bonus you get from smartlink.
Just as my last post said, what part of it are you having trouble understanding?

[Critias]

Then nobody should be complaining about the lack of smartlink bonuses.

Well, no. They're free to complain if they want to. It's just that such complaints might not be terribly justified, in the opinion of the rest of us.

[Seriously Mike]

Oh hell, now you make me want to get two compact laser pointers for my airsoft Berettas to check how hard it really is!

[Udoshi]

I'm sure this has been debated in great length, so feel free to point me in the right direction but in the 20th Anniversary Edtion on page 150 it says:



Okay some of this I get. But the one thing I guess I'm not wrapping my head around is why does it negate the smartgun link bonus? Beyond game balance, that is?

Fluff-wise, at least as far as I understand it, it doesn't work while dual wielding because its incredibly disorienting to deal with two crosshairs at once.

If you want to get a bonus for using two smartlinks/guns at once, the best option you have is with a rating 1 Tacsoft. Smartgun systems come with a laser range finder and a camera, which provides the two necessary sensor channels. With two guns and yourself(assuming, oh, a simrig, or even cybereyes), you meet the minimum-participant requirement.
Its only a +1 bonus, but if you throw in an Optimization: Tactical AR soft hardware mod(its in unwired), you can bump that back up to a +2.

The system is roughly equivalent to a smartlink, but you can share it with your team if you like.

[Yerameyahu]

I dunno, Mäx, I thought I made the some point very clear myself. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Better stop trying.

[Mäx]

I dunno, Mäx, I thought I made the some point very clear myself. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Better stop trying.

Just has to wait for him to enlighten us on what part he's not getting (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

[JonathanC]

Just has to wait for him to enlighten us on what part he's not getting (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

The part where you don't understand how human vision works, I guess.

[Yerameyahu]

*shrug* Like I said.

[crash2029]

I have a question that's related. If you have two guns with smartlinks but only fire one of them per simple action, does the smartlink bonus apply? My current character has a pair of Rugers that only fire in SS and he only fires them one at a time.

[CanRay]

It's a driver conflict when you have two smartgun links going at the same time. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

That's perfectly fine, crash2029.

[Ol' Scratch]

Have you ever tried experimenting with this? I have. I took two laser pointers and tried toying around to see if I could keep them "locked" on two separate targets that were far enough away where I had to move my eyes to keep track of both of them, even if just a little. It was a chore under calm circumstances. Trying to do it with the adrenalin pumping, the targets moving, and... I don't even want to think about trying to do it then.

Sure, keeping them both on a single target is a lot easier, but it's still challenging especially if you're going for precision rather than, say, center mass.

[Yerameyahu]

Oh, sure. I'm all for the Additional Target Penalty being bigger, and it should penalize the primary as well (like D&D, hehe); -2/-4/etc.? Maybe more. I just don't agree that, in SR4, the smartlink should magically stop working altogether just because you're aiming two guns (potentially at the same exact point) based on a 'realistic distraction' argument.

[Ol' Scratch]

What's the difference between "no bonus" and "a +2 bonus with a -2 penalty?"

[Yerameyahu]

Consistency, mostly. It also produces different results if you don't have a smartlink to begin with, which is harsh but probably appropriate. Again, I'm fine with it being (very) hard to aim two guns at *different* targets; that's only fair. And I'm no great fan of the 'omg, dual-wielding is cool' concept, personally. But it is a weird little glitch that the smartlink wouldn't work on the RAW-approved single target version. In that situation, I bet 2 smartlinks/laser sights would help a lot.

[JonathanC]

Consistency, mostly. It also produces different results if you don't have a smartlink to begin with, which is harsh but probably appropriate. Again, I'm fine with it being (very) hard to aim two guns at *different* targets; that's only fair. And I'm no great fan of the 'omg, dual-wielding is cool' concept, personally. But it is a weird little glitch that the smartlink wouldn't work on the RAW-approved single target version. In that situation, I bet 2 smartlinks/laser sights would help a lot.

You bet? Based on what?

Obviously not an understanding of how human eyes work; or even actual experimentation, given that someone already stated that they tried this out and it didn't work. If you're shooting at an idiot who is standing perfectly still while you line up two separate guns on him, you shouldn't be getting smartlink bonuses anyway because at that point, it can't possibly be easier to hit him. In anything resembling a combat situation, it makes no sense to give the bonus, and the idea of negating the bonus with a penalty for "your brain doesn't work that way, moron" is just stupid. Piling on random bonuses and penalties slows down combat and ruins the experience in play because people spend forever looking up their goddamn bonuses.

Keep it sensible.

[Saint Hallow]

1. the smartgun system on a gun is a combination camera, range-finder, & mini-computer that feeds the sensors/mechanical systems on a gun. The system controls pieces of the gun & delivers data from the gun to whatever processor that interprets the info & displays it.

2. the smartgun system in eyes is what interprets the data from a smartgun & displays it on the eyes.

3. Using information from the eyes, the brain interprets that data & allows a person to "see" the image. The human brain requires 2 separate inputs & feeds in order to gauge distance. If someone only has 1 eye, they have great difficulty gauging distance do to the lack of a 2ndary reference perspective.

4. To shoot a gun, it takes more than pointing the gun at the target. Anticipation of wind & the bullet dropping & angle of the shot will require nuanced adjustments to hit a target. Especially if the target is far away.

So from it seems, the electronic hardware for smartguns is still limited by the human brain's need for 2 eyes, 2 separate perspective/references, & if you have 2 feeds coming in from 2 cameras, for 2 separate, independent guns... it causes issues. Like rubbing your tummy with 1 hand & patting your head with the other. Some folks can do it, some cannot. Either case... separation of brain, eyes, & muscles is complicated.

All in all though... I think it's probably a game balance issue.

[Yerameyahu]

I bet, based on nothing. Sue me, or show my your peer-reviewed evidence. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) I think you'll find he [Ol' Scratch] didn't say he tried *this*. He performed a distinct task, one which I specifically mentioned: multiple targets. He then compared to the single target case, and called it 'easier but challenging'. I'm going to give that a soft rating, personally. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

In fact, it *can* be easier to hit a stationary target in the open. That's why there's a dice pool.

Given that we're already using the smartgun in *all* other cases, and the multiple-target penalties are independent, I think you'll find that my proposal is actually less time 'looking up bonuses'.

Anyway, you seem pretty agitated about this, though I appreciate that you're taking it out on the hypothetical targets. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

--
See, Saint Hallow, I'm just not feeling it. All we're talking about is a dot on things you're seeing. There's no mucking around with your natural binocular vision at all; there is only ever *one* feed (caveat: see earlier post). The smartgun is handling all the physics already, so it's not that, either. You're getting a +2 bonus for having a calculated dot seamlessly integrated into your vision. The laser sight gives a +1 in a nearly identical way, except without the handy calculations. Either way, the dot helps you aim. Having two dots does not *hurt* your aiming ability, and there's already a separate penalty for trying to aim at multiple targets. Dots can only help with that (difficult) task, and dots can only help with the much simpler task of aiming two guns at one target.