[X] My Assistant

[The Jopp]

Astral hazing reduces force by -4 and basically disrupts all magic and spirits at F4 or less.

So what goes *poof* first with a touch/engulf attack.

F4 Spirit uses engulf in its attack and makes its move.

Will the spirit simply dissapear before it reach the character or will the attack occur first with reduced force and then the spirit goes poof?

I would also assume that this tactic would only work as long as the character has at least 1+ essence left so that anything within 'Meter' Essence have reduiced magic, anyone with less than 1 in magic would only ignore magical effects.

They might affect a spirit if they physically strangle and it goes poof.

[Fortinbras]

It's up to the GM and depends upon the type of Engulf attack that it is. If it's a smoke attack from a fire spirit or a drowning attack from a water spirit or what not.

Remember that SR4a clearly states the Critter powers are meant to be guidelines for GMs, not hard and fast rules. If you are playing using the critter powers precisely as written, you are, in fact, not playing by the rules as written.

[Machiavelli]

I have the feeling that it will be answered in an upcoming sourcebook.....MUAHAHAHAHA^^

[Stalag]

Astral hazing reduces force by -4 and basically disrupts all magic and spirits at F4 or less.

So what goes *poof* first with a touch/engulf attack.

F4 Spirit uses engulf in its attack and makes its move.

Will the spirit simply dissapear before it reach the character or will the attack occur first with reduced force and then the spirit goes poof?

I would also assume that this tactic would only work as long as the character has at least 1+ essence left so that anything within 'Meter' Essence have reduiced magic, anyone with less than 1 in magic would only ignore magical effects.

They might affect a spirit if they physically strangle and it goes poof.

The Hazing wins - the spirit is materialized from mana, the spell is made from mana... the hazing is mana... or, more specifically, bad, disruptive, aspected mana. I wouldn't say "poof" - it's not anti-magic... I'd more say it's like the spell and spirit lose all cohesion and disintegrate...evaporate...etc... "disrupt"

Also, don't forget the Hazing extends 1m per point of essence so, on an unaugmented character, a spirit or spell would have to cross 6m of bad juju to even get close to the target

[Makki]

unless the spirit is specifically told to use Engulf (what a stupid mage? or by a non-astral sight mystic-adept) it probably will choose another way to attack the target. If it doesn't have Elemental attack it can always grab a gun and default on Agi *g*. A clever spirit could use Compulsion to make someone else attack its target.

[Machiavelli]

Engulf doesn´t require that the spirit drowns the victim into his own body. It can also create an effect outside of his body (e.g. collumn of fire, vines that strangle, whirlwind, sinking into the ground beneath your feet, etc.) So the spirit wouldn´t need to come close for this attack and therefore no "poof"ing. A reduction of the effect would be discussable but not covered by the RAW.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

Engulf doesn´t require that the spirit drowns the victim into his own body. It can also create an effect outside of his body (e.g. collumn of fire, vines that strangle, whirlwind, sinking into the ground beneath your feet, etc.) So the spirit wouldn´t need to come close for this attack and therefore no "poof"ing. A reduction of the effect would be discussable but not covered by the RAW.

If the effect is physical and instantaneous, I would say yes, but if the effect is sustained, then it falls in the same category as sustained spells - at least that's the way I would handle it.

I think spirits just aren't the right tool for the job in this case - at least not without putting in some thought.

[Machiavelli]

This is definitely a way you COULD handle it, but like i pointed out not covered by RAW. Critter powers are rated different from common magical skills like spellcasting. This is something for the GM, for sure.

[Stalag]

Critter powers are rated different from common magical skills like spellcasting.

Not entirely...

Powers are special abilities that critters possess as part of their physiology. Some powers are natural in nature, such as claws or armor. Others, such as Concealment or Engulf, are magical

"are magical" would mean "use mana" and as such would be just as affected as spells.

However, I think that...

Spirits, being creatures of living mana, are perhaps even more vulnerable to background count. A spirit’s Force is reduced in the same manner as a character’s Magic, thus affecting the spirit’s attribute and spirit powers as well.

... is also a really strong indicator that they are mana based.

Since the spirit's Force rating plays a factor in the effect of the powers, that rating would be reduced when the spell hit the background count. Imagine a spell like blowing someone in the face with a hair dryer or compressed air gun... now imagine trying to do it to someone standing in the middle of a tornado. That's background count.

[Draco18s]

Also, don't forget the Hazing extends 1m per point of essence so, on an unaugmented character, a spirit or spell would have to cross 6m of bad juju to even get close to the target

According to some, Astral Hazing does not protect you from instantaneous spells cast from outside the area of hazing.
(Which RAW supports, although I don't like the current RAW mechanical effect of background count).

[Stalag]

According to some, Astral Hazing does not protect you from instantaneous spells cast from outside the area of hazing.
(Which RAW supports, although I don't like the current RAW mechanical effect of background count).

I don't believe RAW supports that...

Sorcery involves the intuitive manipulation of the mana field by a magician, who shapes it in certain ways for certain effects. A good metaphor for this is to equate the mana field with the airwaves, making the use of Sorcery the transmission of certain radio signals that create different effects. To cast a spell, a magician channels mana through herself and transmits it on a specific frequency. [...] The target of the spell is the radio signal receiver, and the signal is sent on the target’s frequency. When the signal is received, it channels mana through the target to create a specified effect (thus Direct Combat spells bypass armor, because they affect the target from within). All of this occurs on the same plane—physical or astral—as the magician and the target.

Since even an instantaneous spell would have to be "transmitted" across the space between caster and target (which is why line of sight is important) the background count would disrupt it the same as any other spell. To carry on their analogy, casting a spell or using a magic based power across an area of background count would be like trying to transmit a radio signal (aka electromagnetic waves) through an area of electromagnetic interference.

Does that make Astral Hazing a ridiculously powerful "negative" quality... terribly so, especially for a non-Awakened character with enough cyber to drop his Essence to .2. Absolutely... I played that character and dumped him after the second leg of the run because it was just too ridiculous (especially since he also had Arcane Arrester). If you have a player that insists on taking it play up it's bad sides and maybe add a few more negatives to make it worth the Karma they get. Positive spells get affected too (no Invis or Heal for you!), the casters in the group get queasy just standing around you (even if outside the count) and down-right nauseous if they assense in your direction. Keep careful track of how much time they "remain in one place" and go with 2 hour expansion. Being on a stake out sucks when that hazing extends and your mage suddenly takes -4 to detect enemies. And if said character doesn't cyber his essence down? A 6m hazing will be tripping wards everywhere he goes, spirits will avoid him like the plague, and mages (fellow players and NPC's) will despise him. And no, don't let them try and use Geomancy to aspect the count in their casters favor.

[Draco18s]

Since even an instantaneous spell would have to be "transmitted" across the space between caster and target (which is why line of sight is important) the background count would disrupt it the same as any other spell. To carry on their analogy, casting a spell or using a magic based power across an area of background count would be like trying to transmit a radio signal (aka electromagnetic waves) through an area of electromagnetic interference.

THAT is exactly why I disagree with the interpretation, however, mechanically speaking a spell's force is only drained If and Only If, it is sustained or permanent and the caster enters an area of BC (the magician sustaining the spell or the object which is the anchor for the permanent spell).

Instantaneous spells are only effected if the caster is inside the BC, and only reduced because the mage's magic attribute is reduced.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I don't believe RAW supports that...

Since even an instantaneous spell would have to be "transmitted" across the space between caster and target (which is why line of sight is important) the background count would disrupt it the same as any other spell. To carry on their analogy, casting a spell or using a magic based power across an area of background count would be like trying to transmit a radio signal (aka electromagnetic waves) through an area of electromagnetic interference.

You should read the rules on Background Count (of which Astral Hazing is a subset) again then. That is EXACTLY what it says. Instantaneous spells are unaffected by Background count if they are cast from outside the area of the count. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) To do it any other way turns Astral Hazing from a Negative Quality (which is already a bit Questionable to start with, though it does suck) to a Positive Quality.

Here is what is affected:

Spirits, being creatures of living mana, are perhaps even more vulnerable to background count. A spirit’s Force is reduced in the same manner as a character’s Magic, thus affecting the spirit’s attribute and spirit powers as well. A spirit is disrupted (Disruption, p. 94) if it’s Force is reduced to 0 or less. Pre-existing wards, mana barriers, active foci, sustained spells, and quickened/anchored spells are similarly affected. Reduce their Force by the absolute value of the background count. If the Force is reduced to zero or less, wards and mana barriers will collapse, foci will deactivate, and spells will fizzle. The enchantment on a quickened/anchored spell or ward/mana barrier will repair itself once removed from the background count, returning to its regular Force.

Non-Sustained Spells are unaffected - This leaves Permanent Spells and Instantaneous Spells. Since you have to actually sustain a Permanent Spell, they fall under the rules for sustained spells until they become permanent, so would also be affected.

[Draco18s]

You should read the rules on Background Count (of which Astral Hazing is a subset) again then. That is EXACTLY what it says. Instantaneous spells are unaffected by Background count if they are cast from outside the area of the count. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) To do it any other way turns Astral Hazing from a Negative Quality (which is already a bit Questionable to start with, though it does suck) to a Positive Quality.

Indeed.

So while I disagree with RAW, I also disagree with Astral Hazing as "existing."

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Indeed.

So while I disagree with RAW, I also disagree with Astral Hazing as "existing."

It is an oddity, to be sure. Never really had a problem with it though, so I have no needs to change it. As for Astral Hazing, we just tend to ramp up the negatives of the Quality. Not many people want to have it at our table.

[Stalag]

Here is what is affected:

Spirits, being creatures of living mana, are perhaps even more vulnerable to background count. A spirit’s Force is reduced in the same manner as a character’s Magic, thus affecting the spirit’s attribute and spirit powers as well. A spirit is disrupted (Disruption, p. 94) if it’s Force is reduced to 0 or less. Pre-existing wards, mana barriers, active foci, sustained spells, and quickened/anchored spells are similarly affected. Reduce their Force by the absolute value of the background count. If the Force is reduced to zero or less, wards and mana barriers will collapse, foci will deactivate, and spells will fizzle. The enchantment on a quickened/anchored spell or ward/mana barrier will repair itself once removed from the background count, returning to its regular Force.

Non-Sustained Spells are unaffected - This leaves Permanent Spells and Instantaneous Spells. Since you have to actually sustain a Permanent Spell, they fall under the rules for sustained spells until they become permanent, so would also be affected.

No, if you take it in context all that says is "Pre-existing wards, mana barriers, active foci, sustained spells, and quickened/anchored spells are affected the same way spirits are." It does not say "instantaneous spells are unaffected." It doesn't mention them in that statement because they aren't something that would be pre-existing or able to move into a background count "similarly to" a spirit. Permanent spells, as you said, would fall under "sustained" until they become permanent, at which point they're no longer spells at all. That instantaneous spells aren't covered at all isn't license (beyond house rule) to ignore the pre-stated mechanics of magic that fairly clearly indicate how they would be affected.

To do it any other way turns Astral Hazing from a Negative Quality (which is already a bit Questionable to start with, though it does suck) to a Positive Quality.

Does choosing to read it that way reduce the over-powering of Astral Hazing? Sure, some... I would argue not enough. It's an obnoxious and stupid Quality that should be limited to NPC's. If you're going to house rule it, house rule the quality as unavailable.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Non-Sustained Spells are unaffected - This leaves Permanent Spells and Instantaneous Spells. Since you have to actually sustain a Permanent Spell, they fall under the rules for sustained spells until they become permanent, so would also be affected.No, if you take it in context all that says is "Pre-existing wards, mana barriers, active foci, sustained spells, and quickened/anchored spells are affected the same way spirits are." It does not say "instantaneous spells are unaffected." It doesn't mention them in that statement because they aren't something that would be pre-existing or able to move into a background count "similarly to" a spirit. Permanent spells, as you said, would fall under "sustained" until they become permanent, at which point they're no longer spells at all. That instantaneous spells aren't covered at all isn't license (beyond house rule) to ignore the pre-stated mechanics of magic that fairly clearly indicate how they would be affected.

Does choosing to read it that way reduce the over-powering of Astral Hazing? Sure, some... I would argue not enough. It's an obnoxious and stupid Quality that should be limited to NPC's. If you're going to house rule it, house rule the quality as unavailable.

And I, and many others (even a developer or two, IIRC) say that you are not correct in your interpretation... Just have to agree to disagree here. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Stalag]

And I, and many others (even a developer or two, IIRC) say that you are not correct in your interpretation... Just have to agree to disagree here. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Fair enough (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[The Jopp]

I made a quick overview of how magic is affected by astral hazing and it works rather well as a guideline.

Essentially it means that that yes, spirits goes poof as soon as they are within essence meters and any ability that uses force are reduced.

MAGIC VS CHARACTER WITH ASTRAL HAZING
Attacking Caster Suffer +4 Drain Value
Attacking Caster Magic Rating is -4 [If within range of characters Essence in meters]

ASTRAL HAZING VS OTHERS (If within Essence meters of character)
Astral Perception & Assensing: Dicepool -4D6 (When used against anyone within the area of Astral Hazing)
Critters loose magical abilities at F0
Spirits at F4 or less gets disrupted
Critter Powers Force is at -4
Watchers always disrupt due to F1

EDITED: Arcane Arrester Effect Removed

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

@The Jopp: Is this supposed to be a house-rule collection or are you trying to summarize the RAW?

[The Jopp]

@The Jopp: Is this supposed to be a house-rule collection or are you trying to summarize the RAW?

This is a collection of what RAW says about Astral Hazing effects and how Background Count affects magical spells/beings.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

This is a collection of what RAW says about Astral Hazing effects and how Background Count affects magical spells/beings.

Then I would advise actually looking into the book before posting something like that.

Sorry to sound harsh, but if you want to have a RAW discussion you have to look at the RAW.

So:
- look up what Astral Hazing really says: (Read, you get a BC of 4)
- look up how BC works
- get rid of the stuff that has nothing to do with astral hazing, read, the Arcane Arrester stuff you have mixed into your list.

[The Jopp]

Here's a fun combination:

A F8 spirit within range of Astral Hazing becomes F4 and the if it casts spells at me those goes down to F2.

Which almost renders it null and void.

Ignore post, had added Arcane Arrester Effect.

[The Jopp]

Then I would advise actually looking into the book before posting something like that.

Sorry to sound harsh, but if you want to have a RAW discussion you have to look at the RAW.

So:
- look up what Astral Hazing really says: (Read, you get a BC of 4)
- look up how BC works
- get rid of the stuff that has nothing to do with astral hazing, read, the Arcane Arrester stuff you have mixed into your list.

Whoops, i had cut out a list from a specific character that had Arcane Arrester as well, yea, that should be cut out.

Yes, Astral Hazing gives a background count of 4, which basically reduce F by 4 or add +4 to casting and drain values.

[Fortinbras]

As long as we are collecting RAW, I'd like to put this one out there:

The game mechanics given for the powers below are not intended
as hard and fast rules, but as guidelines for the gamemaster. Players
should never be absolutely certain of the capabilities of a critter, particularly
Awakened ones. There is always a chance that a power may work
slightly differently for one particular paracritter, especially one designated
as a prime runner critter. Uncertainty is a wonderful dramatic tool.

Now I can't speak to spells, but for critter powers, this means that no two powers are necessarily going to be the same, so asking "What happens when a critter power does X?" is, by RAW, open to the interpretation of the GM. If he says the Engulf power of a Earth Spirit is to swallow it up in the ground and is thereby out of range of the BC, then that's fine. If he says the Earth spirit picks him up and swallow him like an hors d'oeuvre and so is subject to BC, then that's his prerogative as well.

So, again, to create a hard and fast rule for all critter powers is breaking the rules of the game. Which you are welcome to do, but you can't claim that it's Shadowrun cannon when you do.
Spells, on the other hand, do have hard and fast rules. I'll leave it to people who want to argue over how "broken" the game is to interpret those.