Astral hazing reduces force by -4 and basically disrupts all magic and spirits at F4 or less.

So what goes *poof* first with a touch/engulf attack.

F4 Spirit uses engulf in its attack and makes its move.

Will the spirit simply dissapear before it reach the character or will the attack occur first with reduced force and then the spirit goes poof?

I would also assume that this tactic would only work as long as the character has at least 1+ essence left so that anything within 'Meter' Essence have reduiced magic, anyone with less than 1 in magic would only ignore magical effects.

They might affect a spirit if they physically strangle and it goes poof.

It's up to the GM and depends upon the type of Engulf attack that it is. If it's a smoke attack from a fire spirit or a drowning attack from a water spirit or what not.

Remember that SR4a clearly states the Critter powers are meant to be guidelines for GMs, not hard and fast rules. If you are playing using the critter powers precisely as written, you are, in fact, not playing by the rules as written.

I have the feeling that it will be answered in an upcoming sourcebook.....MUAHAHAHAHA^^

The Hazing wins - the spirit is materialized from mana, the spell is made from mana... the hazing is mana... or, more specifically, bad, disruptive, aspected mana. I wouldn't say "poof" - it's not anti-magic... I'd more say it's like the spell and spirit lose all cohesion and disintegrate...evaporate...etc... "disrupt"

Also, don't forget the Hazing extends 1m per point of essence so, on an unaugmented character, a spirit or spell would have to cross 6m of bad juju to even get close to the target

unless the spirit is specifically told to use Engulf (what a stupid mage? or by a non-astral sight mystic-adept) it probably will choose another way to attack the target. If it doesn't have Elemental attack it can always grab a gun and default on Agi *g*. A clever spirit could use Compulsion to make someone else attack its target.

Engulf doesn´t require that the spirit drowns the victim into his own body. It can also create an effect outside of his body (e.g. collumn of fire, vines that strangle, whirlwind, sinking into the ground beneath your feet, etc.) So the spirit wouldn´t need to come close for this attack and therefore no "poof"ing. A reduction of the effect would be discussable but not covered by the RAW.

If the effect is physical and instantaneous, I would say yes, but if the effect is sustained, then it falls in the same category as sustained spells - at least that's the way I would handle it.

I think spirits just aren't the right tool for the job in this case - at least not without putting in some thought.

This is definitely a way you COULD handle it, but like i pointed out not covered by RAW. Critter powers are rated different from common magical skills like spellcasting. This is something for the GM, for sure.

Not entirely...
"are magical" would mean "use mana" and as such would be just as affected as spells.

However, I think that...


... is also a really strong indicator that they are mana based.

Since the spirit's Force rating plays a factor in the effect of the powers, that rating would be reduced when the spell hit the background count. Imagine a spell like blowing someone in the face with a hair dryer or compressed air gun... now imagine trying to do it to someone standing in the middle of a tornado. That's background count.

According to some, Astral Hazing does not protect you from instantaneous spells cast from outside the area of hazing.
(Which RAW supports, although I don't like the current RAW mechanical effect of background count).

I don't believe RAW supports that...
Since even an instantaneous spell would have to be "transmitted" across the space between caster and target (which is why line of sight is important) the background count would disrupt it the same as any other spell. To carry on their analogy, casting a spell or using a magic based power across an area of background count would be like trying to transmit a radio signal (aka electromagnetic waves) through an area of electromagnetic interference.

Does that make Astral Hazing a ridiculously powerful "negative" quality... terribly so, especially for a non-Awakened character with enough cyber to drop his Essence to .2. Absolutely... I played that character and dumped him after the second leg of the run because it was just too ridiculous (especially since he also had Arcane Arrester). If you have a player that insists on taking it play up it's bad sides and maybe add a few more negatives to make it worth the Karma they get. Positive spells get affected too (no Invis or Heal for you!), the casters in the group get queasy just standing around you (even if outside the count) and down-right nauseous if they assense in your direction. Keep careful track of how much time they "remain in one place" and go with 2 hour expansion. Being on a stake out sucks when that hazing extends and your mage suddenly takes -4 to detect enemies. And if said character doesn't cyber his essence down? A 6m hazing will be tripping wards everywhere he goes, spirits will avoid him like the plague, and mages (fellow players and NPC's) will despise him. And no, don't let them try and use Geomancy to aspect the count in their casters favor.

THAT is exactly why I disagree with the interpretation, however, mechanically speaking a spell's force is only drained If and Only If, it is sustained or permanent and the caster enters an area of BC (the magician sustaining the spell or the object which is the anchor for the permanent spell).

Instantaneous spells are only effected if the caster is inside the BC, and only reduced because the mage's magic attribute is reduced.

You should read the rules on Background Count (of which Astral Hazing is a subset) again then. That is EXACTLY what it says. Instantaneous spells are unaffected by Background count if they are cast from outside the area of the count. To do it any other way turns Astral Hazing from a Negative Quality (which is already a bit Questionable to start with, though it does suck) to a Positive Quality.

Here is what is affected:



Non-Sustained Spells are unaffected - This leaves Permanent Spells and Instantaneous Spells. Since you have to actually sustain a Permanent Spell, they fall under the rules for sustained spells until they become permanent, so would also be affected.

Indeed.

So while I disagree with RAW, I also disagree with Astral Hazing as "existing."

It is an oddity, to be sure. Never really had a problem with it though, so I have no needs to change it. As for Astral Hazing, we just tend to ramp up the negatives of the Quality. Not many people want to have it at our table.

No, if you take it in context all that says is "Pre-existing wards, mana barriers, active foci, sustained spells, and quickened/anchored spells are affected the same way spirits are." It does not say "instantaneous spells are unaffected." It doesn't mention them in that statement because they aren't something that would be pre-existing or able to move into a background count "similarly to" a spirit. Permanent spells, as you said, would fall under "sustained" until they become permanent, at which point they're no longer spells at all. That instantaneous spells aren't covered at all isn't license (beyond house rule) to ignore the pre-stated mechanics of magic that fairly clearly indicate how they would be affected.Does choosing to read it that way reduce the over-powering of Astral Hazing? Sure, some... I would argue not enough. It's an obnoxious and stupid Quality that should be limited to NPC's. If you're going to house rule it, house rule the quality as unavailable.

And I, and many others (even a developer or two, IIRC) say that you are not correct in your interpretation... Just have to agree to disagree here.

Fair enough

I made a quick overview of how magic is affected by astral hazing and it works rather well as a guideline.

Essentially it means that that yes, spirits goes poof as soon as they are within essence meters and any ability that uses force are reduced.

MAGIC VS CHARACTER WITH ASTRAL HAZING
Attacking Caster Suffer +4 Drain Value
Attacking Caster Magic Rating is -4 [If within range of characters Essence in meters]

ASTRAL HAZING VS OTHERS (If within Essence meters of character)
Astral Perception & Assensing: Dicepool -4D6 (When used against anyone within the area of Astral Hazing)
Critters loose magical abilities at F0
Spirits at F4 or less gets disrupted
Critter Powers Force is at -4
Watchers always disrupt due to F1

EDITED: Arcane Arrester Effect Removed

@The Jopp: Is this supposed to be a house-rule collection or are you trying to summarize the RAW?

This is a collection of what RAW says about Astral Hazing effects and how Background Count affects magical spells/beings.

Then I would advise actually looking into the book before posting something like that.

Sorry to sound harsh, but if you want to have a RAW discussion you have to look at the RAW.

So:
- look up what Astral Hazing really says: (Read, you get a BC of 4)
- look up how BC works
- get rid of the stuff that has nothing to do with astral hazing, read, the Arcane Arrester stuff you have mixed into your list.

Here's a fun combination:

A F8 spirit within range of Astral Hazing becomes F4 and the if it casts spells at me those goes down to F2.

Which almost renders it null and void.

Ignore post, had added Arcane Arrester Effect.

Whoops, i had cut out a list from a specific character that had Arcane Arrester as well, yea, that should be cut out.

Yes, Astral Hazing gives a background count of 4, which basically reduce F by 4 or add +4 to casting and drain values.

As long as we are collecting RAW, I'd like to put this one out there:


Now I can't speak to spells, but for critter powers, this means that no two powers are necessarily going to be the same, so asking "What happens when a critter power does X?" is, by RAW, open to the interpretation of the GM. If he says the Engulf power of a Earth Spirit is to swallow it up in the ground and is thereby out of range of the BC, then that's fine. If he says the Earth spirit picks him up and swallow him like an hors d'oeuvre and so is subject to BC, then that's his prerogative as well.

So, again, to create a hard and fast rule for all critter powers is breaking the rules of the game. Which you are welcome to do, but you can't claim that it's Shadowrun cannon when you do.
Spells, on the other hand, do have hard and fast rules. I'll leave it to people who want to argue over how "broken" the game is to interpret those.

BUT, Only when you are within the Area of Effect of the Background Count. By RAW, If you are NOT in the Area (Further away than Essence Meters), and you cast a Combat spell at the target (The Astral Hazing Mana Hazard), Then you suffer NO Increase in Drain, and the Spell impacts at FULL Force. Imstantaneous Spells are not affected by Background Count UNLESS YOU ARE IN THE BACKGROUND COUNT.

how did I managed to miss that part?

I think that my mistake is because the description in Runner Companion states:

Which may break the whole "ambient mana is a conduit for the spell" idea but hey, if the Dev's say that's how it works then that's how it works. At least we won't have to worry about opponents using their Aspected Domain lodges to reduce/avoid incoming combat spells....

That is okay, that is what a WARD is for. You know, that thing that protects you from incomming spells while in your place of protection.

It seems that it's been generally agreed here that statement should be ignored in favor of a (Developer supported) creative reading of a line from SM that lets GM's make a minor reduction in the effectiveness of the quality

Ok, but seriously, there is no creative reading involved:

A character has Astral Hazing. Another character casts a spell on him, this triggers then check whether the spell is affected by BC. But BC rules apply as normal, so the spell is sometimes affected, sometimes not, depending on the circumstances and the spell.

The above statement (Quote for Astral Hazing) is in direct contradiction to the actual rules of the Background Count Section. If you do not use the actual rules, the NEGATIVE quality being Discussed is no longer a Negative Quality. It becomes a Positive Quality with a minor inconvenience to it.

If you look at the entire section for Astral Hazing, you will see that it refers you to the RULES for Background Count starting on page 117 of Street Magic (As the Astral Hazing Entry has no actual rules in it, it does not tell you how to handle the Area of Background Count, which is why it refers you to the appropriate section in SM). Fluff Aside, The rules are pretty clear. Instantaneous Spells cast from outside of the Background Count are NOT AFFECTED. Whether you agree with that or not is a completely separate issue.

Ergo - it is a "Negative" Quality that's really just best avoided all together

Heh.... Sure.

The fact that lodges are themselves dual natured mana barriers makes Wards mosty redundant. Effective, still, but redundant.

When you have to push through multiple wards, it is multiply effective.

Yes. Hence the "still effective" portion. If I interpret correctly, layering wards and other mana barriers will aslo provide multiple dice boni to resisting ritual spells, as well.

Indeed, It should.

And provide multiple DP penalties to the astral Search power... which is one of those things that is pretty hard to avoid, otherwise.

I think wards are perfectly good, and a very valid addition to the game, because:
- anyone with astral perception can make them, and they cost nothing but time and drain
- they can stay active for a long time
- corps can basically spam them
- any non-initiate mage is effectively stopped by them, unless he doesn't care that he will be detected when pushing through. Uh, correct that, any non-initiate power-gamer mage with several sustained spells . Guess how happy my group's mage's player was when I told him "IF you want to enter that club without alerting security, you WILL have to turn off your foci and sustained spells." "buhbubuhbut I cast them into the foci with edge?" Yeh, he had a coffee break while the rest of the team got the info.

Agreed with all of this. My personal favourites are non-feral ghouls spamming them across the ghoul areas, and Adept AR riggers at corp facilities.

I think Stalag answered this for you... but Engulf in it's description is described as a TOUCH range power... so the spirit must cross into the mana static zone before being able to attack you using a melee attack. It will dissipate first if Force 4 or less.


There is an exception to this, great forms can treat engulf as a LOS(A) allowing them to attack from range and multiple targets at the same time. However, since this is still effectively a sustained power, the background count should still interfere. Effectively giving a -4 penalty to the spirit on the opposed checks and -4 to the damage value.

Except from the part that if a character with Astral Hazing is within Essence range will reduce the wards force by -4 and if they go down to zero they will be destroyed.

Still, someones astral alarm bells will ring when a ward is destroyed.

It´s time for a new book that solves all the open questions. I would be satisfied with a PDF-version, even a mail would be sufficient.^^