Extra Qualities, Can you get them after the game starts Options

[Kesendeja]

Pardon if this has been touched on before but I couldn't find anything.

Can character's buy qualities after the game starts? I know some like adept and the like would be a no, but what about others?

If so how would you work it?

[Yerameyahu]

It's all GM-approval.

[Stalag]

It's all GM-approval.

And, depending on your GM, ones that make sense and are in the context of the story are more likely to fly than ones that aren't. I could see a GM letting you spend Karma to meet an elite hacker or AI that would give you the Erased quality... but suddenly developing an exceptional attribute isn't very likely.

[Hound]

if I remember correctly, don't some qualities say "This can only be taken at character generation?" That would imply that any quality which does not state that can be taken during the game right? AFB at the moment, or I'd go look it up.

[TheOOB]

If a player really wants to spend 40 karma for a quality that allows them to spend karma to get one more die...who am I to argue (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

But yeah, some parts of the rules seem to encourage GM's to allow qualities to be purchased during creation...and some don't, which I think is a problem in the system. I think as a GM you should allow some(otherwise some people will run out of things to spend karma on fairly quick), but be careful what you allow.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

If a player really wants to spend 40 karma for a quality that allows them to spend karma to get one more die...who am I to argue (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

But yeah, some parts of the rules seem to encourage GM's to allow qualities to be purchased during creation...and some don't, which I think is a problem in the system. I think as a GM you should allow some(otherwise some people will run out of things to spend karma on fairly quick), but be careful what you allow.

You can rationalize almost any Quality after play starts. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
And some are even designed to be acquired in play. Martial Arts anyone? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Kesendeja]

Thanks for the responses, this was a great help in solving a quibble around the table.

[TheOOB]

Unfortunately, I think the price of qualities wasn't designed for karma, 10 karma is quite a bit, and many 5 BP qualities don't provide that huge of a bonus.

[Faraday]

Can character's buy qualities after the game starts? I know some like adept and the like would be a no, but what about others?

Theoretically, you COULD actually have a mundane character develop magical powers. You'd need to start out shortly before puberty, though.

[Kesendeja]

Unfortunately, I think the price of qualities wasn't designed for karma, 10 karma is quite a bit, and many 5 BP qualities don't provide that huge of a bonus.

I tend to agree, especially after seeing the Karma rewards in the published adventures. Maybe 1.5 instead of 2?

[Kyrinthic]

Theoretically, you COULD actually have a mundane character develop magical powers. You'd need to start out shortly before puberty, though.

To be fair if you wanted to do this you should take latent awakening or whatever its called from street magic.
As mentioned, the rules are pretty back and forth on the idea of gaining qualities during play.

[Draco18s]

Depends on the quality.
Also, the only qualities that SAY you can't take them post-chargen are the magic and technomancer qualities.

Others, like Enhance Attribute or Ambidexterity don't, but don't make any sense to be acquirable after chargen ("yeah, I wasn't born ambidextrous, I just kind of picked it up. Oh, and super-human agility too").

[Blog]

Ambidexterity is something that can be learned over time with training. Back in my younger years when I worked at a pizza place and was working the paddle to pull things out of the oven, it was in your best interest to get then hang of using either hand. I recall certain stations where it was ideal for left hand paddle right hand cutter and the other which was reversed. This is not even getting into the details of topping where your speed drastically goes up with the ability to use either/both hands at the same time. I can only imagine that weapon training is much the same way and you need to train your body to react appropriately for the change. Not something you can pick up in a day, but I would understand if it is something a character is working towards (in game time spent training) to be allowed to pick it up.

... now i want some pizza

[Draco18s]

Ambidexterity is something that can be learned over time with training.

Ok, so ambidexterity isn't (necessarily) the best example, as it can be learned, although most people don't go to the effort. And I don't know anyone who'd bother putting forth the effort just to dual wield guns.

[Zaranthan]

How many people do you know that make a living getting into gunfights? How many of them own automatic weapons with gas vents that make firing two in lockstep superior to firing one twice?

[TheOOB]

Theoretically, you COULD actually have a mundane character develop magical powers. You'd need to start out shortly before puberty, though.

Awakening can happen any time, it's not so predictable as to always happen during puberty(though that's common). That said, if your character is going to awaken, they should have the latent awakened quality, people without that quality just are not eligible to awaken, short of some strong magical event(HMHVV, SURGE, a pact with a powerful free spirit, ect)

I tend to agree, especially after seeing the Karma rewards in the published adventures. Maybe 1.5 instead of 2?

But some qualities(such as martial arts), we're designed with 2x BP cost in karma in mind, which is where the problem lies. The SR4 designers shot themselves in the foot in this regard in a couple of ways. First, they used a point buy system that uses a completely different resource than what you use to level up, second, they unnecessarily decided that all qualities must cost multiples of 5, and third the quality system was not designed to be used during play. There should be a separate list of qualities only available at creation, and those you can acquire during play(they should be called something else IMO), and rules for acquiring them should be in the main book and not require GM fiat.

[TheOOB]

How many people do you know that make a living getting into gunfights? How many of them own automatic weapons with gas vents that make firing two in lockstep superior to firing one twice?

It's not just recoil, it's also aiming. Virtually every gun ever made was designed to be shot with two hands, even pistols. The fact that you can shot a pistol with one hand is a bonus, but anything with a long barrel is going to simply be two difficult to wield with one hand IRL. You got to remember that pointing a gun a half inch in the wrong direction can cause the bullet to fly several feet off it's mark, so you need another hand to stabilize your grip. The only situation I could imagine where two guns would be worth using would be if you where trying to use suppressive fire, just trying to fill a general area with as much lead as possible.

[Draco18s]

The only situation I could imagine where two guns would be worth using would be if you where trying to use suppressive fire, just trying to fill a general area with as much lead as possible.

The More Dakka Effect

[Yerameyahu]

And doesn't Arsenal add a small penalty for 'not enough hands' firing?

[vladski]

Ok, so ambidexterity isn't (necessarily) the best example, as it can be learned, although most people don't go to the effort. And I don't know anyone who'd bother putting forth the effort just to dual wield guns.

Yet Blog, up there, is willing to go to the effort to be able to dual wield pizza. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Vlad

[HunterHerne]

And doesn't Arsenal add a small penalty for 'not enough hands' firing?

Only for big weapons (anything bigger then an automatic pistol)

[Yerameyahu]

Those are the only ones I'd want to penalize. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[HunterHerne]

Those are the only ones I'd want to penalize. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Then I guess everything's fine.

[Paul]

I'd allow a Player to present their case, and as long as they gave me some solid reasoning and some solid characterization I'd figure out something. Whether it was a straight up Karma for Edge/Flaw trade or something else.

[HunterHerne]

I'd allow a Player to present their case, and as long as they gave me some solid reasoning and some solid characterization I'd figure out something. Whether it was a straight up Karma for Edge/Flaw trade or something else.

I generally allow most things in my games. But, they still have to make a case, and I'm almost never easy on anyone (the current run, the PC's survived a nice Biodrone ambush, which had the Mage get her throat ripped out, and are now dealing with a police check point, only a half hour of straight travel time later. They are managing, but I think they know it's by the skin of their teeth), so when they manage to get their rewards, I'll gladly hand them out.