Pardon if this has been touched on before but I couldn't find anything.

Can character's buy qualities after the game starts? I know some like adept and the like would be a no, but what about others?

If so how would you work it?

It's all GM-approval.

And, depending on your GM, ones that make sense and are in the context of the story are more likely to fly than ones that aren't. I could see a GM letting you spend Karma to meet an elite hacker or AI that would give you the Erased quality... but suddenly developing an exceptional attribute isn't very likely.

if I remember correctly, don't some qualities say "This can only be taken at character generation?" That would imply that any quality which does not state that can be taken during the game right? AFB at the moment, or I'd go look it up.

If a player really wants to spend 40 karma for a quality that allows them to spend karma to get one more die...who am I to argue

But yeah, some parts of the rules seem to encourage GM's to allow qualities to be purchased during creation...and some don't, which I think is a problem in the system. I think as a GM you should allow some(otherwise some people will run out of things to spend karma on fairly quick), but be careful what you allow.

You can rationalize almost any Quality after play starts.
And some are even designed to be acquired in play. Martial Arts anyone?

Thanks for the responses, this was a great help in solving a quibble around the table.

Unfortunately, I think the price of qualities wasn't designed for karma, 10 karma is quite a bit, and many 5 BP qualities don't provide that huge of a bonus.

Theoretically, you COULD actually have a mundane character develop magical powers. You'd need to start out shortly before puberty, though.

I tend to agree, especially after seeing the Karma rewards in the published adventures. Maybe 1.5 instead of 2?

To be fair if you wanted to do this you should take latent awakening or whatever its called from street magic.
As mentioned, the rules are pretty back and forth on the idea of gaining qualities during play.

Depends on the quality.
Also, the only qualities that SAY you can't take them post-chargen are the magic and technomancer qualities.

Others, like Enhance Attribute or Ambidexterity don't, but don't make any sense to be acquirable after chargen ("yeah, I wasn't born ambidextrous, I just kind of picked it up. Oh, and super-human agility too").

Ambidexterity is something that can be learned over time with training. Back in my younger years when I worked at a pizza place and was working the paddle to pull things out of the oven, it was in your best interest to get then hang of using either hand. I recall certain stations where it was ideal for left hand paddle right hand cutter and the other which was reversed. This is not even getting into the details of topping where your speed drastically goes up with the ability to use either/both hands at the same time. I can only imagine that weapon training is much the same way and you need to train your body to react appropriately for the change. Not something you can pick up in a day, but I would understand if it is something a character is working towards (in game time spent training) to be allowed to pick it up.

... now i want some pizza

Ok, so ambidexterity isn't (necessarily) the best example, as it can be learned, although most people don't go to the effort. And I don't know anyone who'd bother putting forth the effort just to dual wield guns.

How many people do you know that make a living getting into gunfights? How many of them own automatic weapons with gas vents that make firing two in lockstep superior to firing one twice?

Awakening can happen any time, it's not so predictable as to always happen during puberty(though that's common). That said, if your character is going to awaken, they should have the latent awakened quality, people without that quality just are not eligible to awaken, short of some strong magical event(HMHVV, SURGE, a pact with a powerful free spirit, ect)



But some qualities(such as martial arts), we're designed with 2x BP cost in karma in mind, which is where the problem lies. The SR4 designers shot themselves in the foot in this regard in a couple of ways. First, they used a point buy system that uses a completely different resource than what you use to level up, second, they unnecessarily decided that all qualities must cost multiples of 5, and third the quality system was not designed to be used during play. There should be a separate list of qualities only available at creation, and those you can acquire during play(they should be called something else IMO), and rules for acquiring them should be in the main book and not require GM fiat.

It's not just recoil, it's also aiming. Virtually every gun ever made was designed to be shot with two hands, even pistols. The fact that you can shot a pistol with one hand is a bonus, but anything with a long barrel is going to simply be two difficult to wield with one hand IRL. You got to remember that pointing a gun a half inch in the wrong direction can cause the bullet to fly several feet off it's mark, so you need another hand to stabilize your grip. The only situation I could imagine where two guns would be worth using would be if you where trying to use suppressive fire, just trying to fill a general area with as much lead as possible.

The More Dakka Effect

And doesn't Arsenal add a small penalty for 'not enough hands' firing?

Yet Blog, up there, is willing to go to the effort to be able to dual wield pizza.

Vlad

Only for big weapons (anything bigger then an automatic pistol)

Those are the only ones I'd want to penalize.

Then I guess everything's fine.

I'd allow a Player to present their case, and as long as they gave me some solid reasoning and some solid characterization I'd figure out something. Whether it was a straight up Karma for Edge/Flaw trade or something else.

I generally allow most things in my games. But, they still have to make a case, and I'm almost never easy on anyone (the current run, the PC's survived a nice Biodrone ambush, which had the Mage get her throat ripped out, and are now dealing with a police check point, only a half hour of straight travel time later. They are managing, but I think they know it's by the skin of their teeth), so when they manage to get their rewards, I'll gladly hand them out.

I allow it in my games and haven't had any problems with it yet. It's only allowed if it fits the character/story, and I haven't encountered any situation where the Karma wouldn't have been spent more efficiently in other ways.

In the same vein, I also allow picking up flaws during play. Has only happened once so far, though. One player had a stroke of bad luck that made his character screw up critical stuff and made him catch a lot of flak from his team, so he declared that his char would become depressed and reclusive, spending his time going through online cyber catalogues and planning a big upgrade. I allowed him to take the Augmentation Addict flaw, and he spent his bonus points for skills that were necessary for his new ware to work, e.g. Exotic Weapon, and to raise his Edge.

So, when you give a PC a flaw, you give them bonus exp in exchange? Huh. I thought that getting a flaw during play was something that just happened that then had to be worked off.

How much exp do you give, when they are given/take a flaw? The full exp it would cost to work it off?

The full cost would make sense. It's like a karma loan in a way.

I think some flaws can be pretty easily earned in the game, but I tend to call it role playing.

Martial Arts Qualities are awkward. It makes more sense for martial arts to be Skills - they're things you train in, just like all the other Skills. I'd say that the normal way to learn Unarmed Combat to a high rating is to get trained in some martial art.

Unfortunately, Martial Arts were tacked onto the game later in Arsenal instead of being built into the system right from the start. And now we've also got this separate buying of Maneuvers nonsense - almost all of those are things that anyone could try, there's no magical law preventing you. It should've been handled with a difficulty modifier, just like Called Shots, and some related specialization. Instead we have a new game system "object" called Maneuvers which work differently from everything else.

I think that everything that you learn/train should be modeled with Skills. "Properties" and scars are Qualities, but stuff you learn should be a Skill.

Huh. I'll keep that in mind (beginning Ghost Cartels at the moment, so addictions are a real possibility).

Exactly. This is just the way I run it, mind you, not the official one. And if I give you points, I will make sure that you pay for it, too. The character from the example was forced to replace cyberware with totally equivalent stuff a couple of times, just because he became convinced that another brand was so much cooler. If you see it that way it's not just a Karma loan, but one with interest to boot.

Not to dual wield pizza but for sure to become Ambidextrous that I could perform the tasks equally as well regardless of hand. Summer job for nearly 7 years that had an unintended side effect, although lacking the strength I once had (yay deskjob) the skill remains.

Back to the topic at hand. Most of the SR games i've had were long running (years passing in game and IRL) and with only a few minor exceptions anything you could learn any quality as long as you put forth the RP effort to find/do the training. I will agree that there are many things which should not go "poof now I can do X".

Most dual-wield situations are either for the "factor of cool" or "proof of concept" situations. Their actual usefulness is often dwarfed by the impact of those situations.


A friend had a character with a augmentation addiction, nearly a full body replacement borg. Was a constant money sink as the player actually did RP that flaw well. Was a few times that some usefull mods for a planned run were tossed prior because something newer just hit the market.

Oy. Well, one of my PCs (elf girl) decided to taunt a bunch of Humanis thugs. By herself. Without backup.

... and, well, her teammates are currently plotting how to break her out of a corporate compound, and, oh, she's gotten 30 BP of negative qualities (yay, psychotropic conditioning and failing Addiction Resistance rolls!). Oh, and the player is amused, at least; "I take considerable amusement in the suffering of my characters." But, yeah, half of that karma is probably going to go immediately back into getting treatment for the Addictions. And the Agoraphobia...

*shakes head* Yeah; the thugs ran her SIN after they captured her and realized that she's SINless, and the lightbulbs went off in the racist skulls of all of the things they could do to/with someone that doesn't legally exist...