Realistic Form and Powers that are always on, Dead giveaway? Options

[Udoshi]

Energy Aura
Type: P

Note: Physical, so does not apply all the time. Just most of it. Spirits may also Materialize like mages do, which may be another way to avoid it.

[Ol' Scratch]

Personally, I don't see anywhere in the rules where it says that it can't be turned off, only that it's always on by default. There is a difference. Your ability to breathe, for instance, is "always on," but you can choose to hold your breath if you really want to.

Since the rules do offer an example of where it being on against the spirit's will isn't practical, I'd say that's the safer assumption to make.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Personally, I don't see anywhere in the rules where it says that it can't be turned off, only that it's always on by default. There is a difference. Your ability to breathe, for instance, is "always on," but you can choose to hold your breath if you really want to.

Since the rules do offer an example of where it being on against the spirit's will isn't practical, I'd say that's the safer assumption to make.

This^^^^

I'm not exactly sure why it is such a point of contention.

[Dakka Dakka]

Personally, I don't see anywhere in the rules where it says that it can't be turned off, only that it's always on by default. There is a difference. Your ability to breathe, for instance, is "always on," but you can choose to hold your breath if you really want to.

Since the rules do offer an example of where it being on against the spirit's will isn't practical, I'd say that's the safer assumption to make.

Just like the spirit leaving behind a trail of scorched earth, this is an assumption that simply is not based on the rules. The Power is always on. If the spirit can turn it off it cannot be always on.

@Udoshi: You are talking about Manifestation not Materialization. A manifested Spirit/mage is only present on the astral plane despite being visible on the physical and thus cannot affect anything in any way on the physical plane. In case of the spirit Energy Aura is still on it just can't affect anything on the astral plane as it is a physical power.

[Ol' Scratch]

Just like the spirit leaving behind a trail of scorched earth, this is an assumption that simply is not based on the rules.

Well, except for the bit about the Realistic Power (which, incidentally, is another "always on" power) allowing a Fire Spirit to appear as an ordinary woman.

The Power is always on. If the spirit can turn it off it cannot be always on.

Most adept powers are "always on," too. But the adept can disable them whenever he wishes.

"Always on" is just an easy way to say that a power doesn't require an action to use, requires no conscience effort to maintain, and thus is always assumed to be active. Nowhere does it say it must be active or that under no circumstances can it be disabled.

Case in point, Energy Aura has the "Action: Auto" label. Looking on page 293 of SR4A, you find out what that means: "Actions: Powers require either a Complex Action or Simple Action to activate, or they Automatically ('Auto') function at all times with no attention from the critter. Auto actions require no action to activate, as they are always on."

Again, nowhere does it say that it has to be on. It's just assumed to always be on and active, just like most adept powers and other similar rules/effects.

[Dakka Dakka]

Well, except for the bit about the Realistic Power (which, incidentally, is another "always on" power) allowing a Fire Spirit to appear as an ordinary woman.

That exactly was the initial problem. Why would the rules of one power disable those of another?

Most adept powers are "always on," too. But the adept can disable them whenever he wishes.

Which actually are? I just went through the Powers of the BBB. They either require a decision and possibly an action to activate (Astral Perception, Killing Hands etc.) or are indeed always on and have no mention of being able to be turned off (Combat Sense, Improved Reflexes etc.)

"Always on" is just an easy way to say that a power doesn't require an action to use, requires no conscience effort to maintain, and thus is always assumed to be active. Nowhere does it say it must be active or that under no circumstances can it be disabled.

I don't see what's unclear here. If something is always on you cannot turn it off at any time since this would break the condition of always.

Case in point, Energy Aura has the "Action: Auto" label. Looking on page 293 of SR4A, you find out what that means: "Actions: Powers require either a Complex Action or Simple Action to activate, or they Automatically ('Auto') function at all times with no attention from the critter. Auto actions require no action to activate, as they are always on."

Of course such Powers do not require an action to activate because they are already on all the time. And even in the sentence you quoted they say that such powers are "on all the time". You cannot turn something off that is on all the time.

[Ascalaphus]

This^^^^

I'm not exactly sure why it is such a point of contention.

I just think that there exist powers, such as for example Realistic Form and Energy Aura, that just don't combine well or at all. And I think that this incompatibility isn't necessarily a bad thing, from a game design viewpoint.

[KarmaInferno]

I don't see what the confusion is. You have a apparently human woman that leaves a trail of scorched ground wherever she walks.



-k

[Yerameyahu]

That's not confusion, it's objection. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) They don't think that's a good situation, and the RAW is also crazy enough to preclude it.

[Draco18s]

Just going to jump in here:


Can not a woman be "smoking hot" without actually being on fire?

[Dakka Dakka]

Just going to jump in here:


Can not a woman be "smoking hot" without actually being on fire?

Figuratively yes, literally not so much.

[KarmaInferno]

"It is a magic flame, my friends! It does not burn!"




-k

[HunterHerne]

Personally, I think it is a matter of one power over ruling the other. The Realistic form should suppress everything that gives away the spirit's identity to a physical-only observer. At least for materialization spirits, which have the option of appearing as normal, or the realistic form.

On another note, other then free, former fire spirits, is it even possible for Fire spirits to have realistic form?

[Draco18s]

Figuratively yes, literally not so much.

So what's stopping the Realistic Form giving the impression of a "smoking hot babe" without her being literally on fire?

[Ol' Scratch]

On another note, other then free, former fire spirits, is it even possible for Fire spirits to have realistic form?

I'm not aware of any standard, conjurable spirits that have Realistic Form.

[Dakka Dakka]

So what's stopping the Realistic Form giving the impression of a "smoking hot babe" without her being literally on fire?

The fact that the Energy Aura cannot be turned off, no mater how realistic the form is. Even if you say that the Aura becomes invisble, it would still work i.e. anyone attacking the spirit would be burned.

Another option would be to create an ally spirit with both powers, to create a paradox. Unfortunately I cannot figure out how to use it to create perpetual motion with it, similar to the dropped cat with a buttered toast on the back. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[CanRay]

Just going to jump in here:

Can not a woman be "smoking hot" without actually being on fire?

Actually, a friend of mine back home was smoking hot when she was on fire. She still looks very good afterwards as well.

She freaked the hell out of her grade school when she mentioned to the class that she smoked once, as well. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Ol' Scratch]

The fact that the Energy Aura cannot be turned off, no mater how realistic the form is. Even if you say that the Aura becomes invisble, it would still work i.e. anyone attacking the spirit would be burned.

And yet the books give an example of where it is turned off. Fancy that.

[Dakka Dakka]

And yet the books give an example of where it is turned off. Fancy that.

Isn't it tradition in SR to use examples that do not reflect the rules? I'm thinking about SR3's recoil accumulation.

[Draco18s]

The fact that the Energy Aura cannot be turned off, no mater how realistic the form is. Even if you say that the Aura becomes invisble, it would still work i.e. anyone attacking the spirit would be burned.

Oh, so it only works if she's attacked.

Well.

That suits everyone just fine. It's not like she sets the drapes on fire by walking past.

[Yerameyahu]

That's just two wrongs making a right, possibly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Some people think that it's wrong for such a power to unduly hamper a spirit, and/or be uncontrollable. Others think it's wrong for such a power to be 'illogically' (or 'metagame-ly'?) restricted to only attack/defense (see flaming spirit sword threads).

Personally, I can see how a thing could have an uncontrollable energy aura power, with negative and positive consequences; I can also see a controllable (on/off) version of that existing. I can even see such a power that visually wreathes the user in energy, but only *directs* that energy through attacks or defense (reflexively). The point is that these are all distinct options, and we should know what thing has which kind. We should also ideally have a good reason for it that choice, informed by game balance, the principle of TANSTAAFL, and—of course—coolness. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I still say the main problem is Realistic Form is insane.

[Ol' Scratch]

Isn't it tradition in SR to use examples that do not reflect the rules? I'm thinking about SR3's recoil accumulation.

Sure, if the example is clearly wrong. But again, the rules don't say that you can't turn such a power off, only that it's always considered on by default. An example shows where it's clearly not active, indicating that it can be deactivated. The rules don't contradict that.

As for adept powers being able to be turned off, if they're not then FAB-III (and various other things) must be crazy scary for them in your version of the setting. Then there's the whole being completely unable to hide that they're a magician without initiating bit? And people around here think cyberware scanners are a hindrance...

[Yerameyahu]

I thought we were talking about the spirit power, though. Totally different, right?

[Draco18s]

Fine.

It's Magic.

Moving on.

[Dakka Dakka]

Sure, if the example is clearly wrong. But again, the rules don't say that you can't turn such a power off, only that it's always considered on by default.

No the rules say the power is always on.

An example shows where it's clearly not active, indicating that it can be deactivated. The rules don't contradict that.

The example does indeed contradict the rules for Powers with the Duration: Always.

As for adept powers being able to be turned off, if they're not then FAB-III (and various other things) must be crazy scary for them in your version of the setting.

How does that differ from interpreting the powers differently? FAB III can attach itself to any awakened character and will only drain its MAG if and when the character is astrally active. As long as adepts are not astrally perceiving, they will only carry the bacteria around until they either find a more nourishing host or they starve.

Then there's the whole being completely unable to hide that they're a magician without initiating bit?

What do active adept powers have to do with identifying uninitiated magicians?