Shadowrun Setting: An Armed Society? Options

[Paul]

Not to pick on any one user but this caught my attention:

Doesn't the world of SR4A have a flavor text stating that EVERYONE carries some sort of firearm for protection? If so, then it's not surprising if people started making their weapons like accessories & matching some pieces with some clothes/shoes. Easy to see a corp bunny with a pink, blinged out Colt L36 that perfectly matches her shoes for that night out at Cub Penumbra.

Now this sticks in my craw for a few reasons. So I want to open up a discussion on how everyone sees the game world and just how armed it really is, and when.

So for my own view point-which is similar to the post above-but with some differences. I think it wouldn't be uncommon to be armed outside of corporate enclaves and government strongholds. Despite the flavor text-in one of the rare few cases I have a major disagreement with the "Fluff" as it were-I see no reason why anyone would allow anything heavier than what we currently see in society now a days. Obviously because of the fracturing of society as we know it, and the balkanization of both governments and corporations (Something I think gets way over played at some points. Yes they'd be adversarial but just like today it's better to reign in hell than let someone else in on the game. Some cooperation would exist-even if it was twisted, and oft times self serving.)

So while I think it wouldn't be uncommon for the average SINner to own a small arm, or even a fancy knife or ceremonial sword-I doubt too much they'd be allowed to walk around willy nilly showing off their hardware in areas where organized society and law enforcement exist. And despite the seemingly easy going atmosphere in most Shadowrun authors fictional portrayal of the world booze and weapons don't mix. Even in poorer areas I suspect there would be a heavy stigma against, if not an out right ban on brandishing weaponry in a nightclub or other establishment.

Now I'm sure someone will throw the barrens in my face. And I agree to every rule there are exceptions. but say you're running a bar, even in the barrens and a bunch of cats keep showing up with automatic weapons, and pounding brews while they plot felonies they'd like to commit. Why do you stay in business? what's to stop them from taking your business? Killing you? I'm sure the more enterprising of you will say-well I'd fight! I'd hire muscle! And BHAM! we enter the never ending cycle of war right?

In the end for my dollar Shadowrun is a dangerous world, and a world where automatic weapons are more easily acquired. But its' not one where you walk around brandishing your arms like a knight one horse in a medieval village.

But every table is different. What are your views?

[Blade]

It was never really clear to me if (and if so which) weapons were legal in Seattle.

As for the Barrens thing, the situation is simple: people do carry guns inside bars but most of the time they won't kill the guy running the bar because they do their business and he does his and everybody is happy this way. The guy running the bar doesn't have to hire muscle: he's got the local gang (the one that is taking most of the money he makes either directly or by getting free drinks) on his side. Messing with him is messing with them.
Anyway, when some of your customers can kill you with some implanted weapon, by concentrating for a few seconds or just by punching you in the face, taking their guns won't change much.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I have always viewed it that Pistols are very common place. Anything heavier, and you are drawing attention to yourself. Same with Body Armor. Armored Clothing (of various flavors) is common, as are the slightly more obvious jackets and vests. Anything heavier, or any obvious augmenting (Obvious PPP) draws attention. The world is a dangerous place, and Personal protection will be prevelant. Heavy emphasis on Personal. You do not need Automatic weapons (of any variety) for personal protection (or even hunting, for that matter (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ), nor do you need explosives. Such idiocy gets noticed and addressed by authorities.

Typically, any character I play (or any NPC's, if I was to run) has either a Light Pistol or Taser on his/her person at all times (certain demographics might change that... Gangers, for example). Occasionally, it will be a Heavy Pistol. There is really never a need for anything heavier unlesss you are actually on a run, and might just need the firepower.

As for what is legal in Seattle, Blade. The Books assume Seattle as a basis. So any thing rated "R" is Legal in Seattle, but you must have a License for it. Any thing rated "F" is Not legal, and unless you are in a job position that allows such things (the Military, Knight Errant, etc), you cannot license them at all.

[CanRay]

With the exception of Ares, I don't see the AAA-Level Corpers having armoured clothing and personal protection (Except for the rare paranoid person), as they have their fine Corporate Security to protect them. AA-Levels feel less secure but is still a low percentage that carry weapons (armor, OTOH, yes), and the security companies (Like Lone Star) encourage people like Ares does.

John Q. SINner (Non-Corporate Citizens) will likely see armoured clothing (Likely an outfit they change into and out of at work for traveling) and a light pistol (Colt Asp at least, but maybe an automatic of some type) as a wise investment to hopefully scare off the scary things that live in the Sprawl.

SINless people, for the most part, won't have anything except what they can scrounge or steal. When you're barely able to make it from meal-to-meal, even a new set of Flats are out of the picture, forget something expensive like a firearm or armour. Gangers are slightly better, but the lower ranks still don't have much that isn't actually owned by the gang itself. As you get higher, they get better gear, until they retire and become low-end Shadowrunners, the dream of Gangers from my POV.

Shadowrunners who've been doing the job for a bit, or had a lucky big score... Well, you've seen starting characters.

[MK Ultra]

I play seattle mostly, and run it low key. basic armored clothing (or the more expensive tailored designer stuff) are common but not ubiquitous. The typical sararimen in seattle might have a taser (which is legal w/o license), but guns are less common, as Seattle has slightly higher restrictions then the rest of the UCAS, they only put on armored clothing for special occasions (going to the edge of the barrens for clubbing or picking up some drugs). Still many sinners that go to less secure places on a regular basis (which most don't) will pack a holdout or maybe a light pistol. Same goes for the better off gangs (bottomfeeders use melee). Security professionals (like mobsters, higher up gangers, off duty cops and corp guards) will often carry more (but out of the barrens usually not obvious) armor and light or heavy pistols & the occasional MP. The real hipsters like Toptire Gangers or Runners may carry SMGs and sawed of shotguns regularly, as long as they stay out of the nice areas. Obvious armor and unconcealable guns are a no go outside of the barrens and some gangster strongholds (in the later case they are more like corp guards).

The tres-chic light pistol fits in with the barren-edge clubbers (though most places will ask ppl to check in the stuff at the door) - in some cases, it could also be a fake accessoire to have that Action-Sim 'street'-look.

Many places in the real barrens will not check guns, but the gangs or hired muscles (for the hot clubs that want to deliver the real barrens experiance to rich corpers) will keep things in check - stuff up to heavy pistol might go, automatics and shotguns will not be appreciated.

In other sprawls, handguns may replace the tasers more often. In tenochtitlan, SMGs are quiet common, too, but other places like Tokio or London will see far less guns and in response less armor.

EDIT:
For citizens of specific corps, Ares and Aztech ppl will tend to have more stuff, Horrizon and Shiawase will have less compared to other corps and the average sinner.

[JonathanC]

I'd say that SINless are probably more likely to be armed than wageslaves. When you live in a corp zone, work in a corp zone, and entertain yourself in a corp zone, what do you need a gun for? It's a needless expense, and one more thing to carry. If you're living in the Sprawl, that's a different story, of course.

SINless, though, could care less about what weapons are legal with a license or not, because they can't get a license anyway. In for a penny, in for a pound. You can say that they should be too broke to afford guns, but look around you: every country full of starving people has an AK-47 for every man, woman, and child. Here in our own sprawls, the poorest people, gang-affiliated or not, have guns. It's viewed as a necessity, like rent money.

[Paul]

I imagine a funny scene in which the armed employees are confronted by the armed Shadowrunners who are all then confronted by the armed security guys. And since ever one is dressed in pink hello kitty stuff, and custom punk rock trappings even though the security guys have AR overlays maybe they end up shooting every one because why take the frickin' chance? "Gosh if only Bob the Wage Slave hadn't had that custom embossed Rainbow Bright gun I'd have thought he was a victim, not a co-conspirator. Sorry about killing him dead. But hey! I stopped the outlandishly dressed, and totally individualized group of criminals! Sure am glad they all took those stand out flaws at creation!"

[JonathanC]

I imagine a funny scene in which the armed employees are confronted by the armed Shadowrunners who are all then confronted by the armed security guys. And since ever one is dressed in pink hello kitty stuff, and custom punk rock trappings even though the security guys have AR overlays maybe they end up shooting every one because why take the frickin' chance? "Gosh if only Bob the Wage Slave hadn't had that custom embossed Rainbow Bright gun I'd have thought he was a victim, not a co-conspirator. Sorry about killing him dead. But hey! I stopped the outlandishly dressed, and totally individualized group of criminals! Sure am glad they all took those stand out flaws at creation!"

Replace "pink hello kitty stuff" with "all-black commando gear". The joke still works. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Infiltrators should have a variety of outfits to blend in. But that big street sam with 8 Body and an obvious cyberarm toting a Stoner LMG? He might as well wear his pink wig and kitty ears wherever he goes, because he's going to stick out regardless.

[Hida Tsuzua]

Considering the prevalence of high end high armored fashion and the fact that armor jackets are merely highly informal not dangerous, it's safe to say that a lot of people both upper and lower class can wear armor if they want. The question really is do people put on armor vests or wear steampunk suits before going to work?

It's clear that the laws regarding weapons have loosen in the SR world. Automatic weapons are quite easy for civilians to acquire legally. It's considered just fine to protect your buildings with well-armed drones against trespassers.

There's also the fact that the Sixth World is a far more dangerous place than the current First World nations (where I consider most dumpshock posters to be from). First off, the world is a much more dangerous place. There's a constant if low level zombie outbreak going on all over the world (ghouls especially the feral kind). There are paracritters who are know for being extremely aggressive towards metahumans and have magic powers. For example Gabriel Hounds are illusion weaving dogs that go on killer rampages once every few full moons, and they're common in urban areas. Also even in the comparatively safe parts of Seattle like Downtown, there are violent gangs like the Halloweeners.

SR is also a world where the rule of law really has broken down. There are "lawless" areas in modern US cities but they aren't as bad as shown even in the less dark portrayals of the SR world. A far better example is places like the Favelas of Brazil. Even in more upscale parts of the city, authority comes from the regular threat of force rather than the widespread acceptance of the rule of law. If that wasn't the case, it's far more likely corporations would either sue or merely arrest troublemakers rather than hire shadowrunners or shooting people in the face with drones. Within recent memory, there was also Crash 2.0 which was a rather big deal.

As for bars and firearms, the combination is dangerous, but I don't know if I'll consider it commonly banned even in the current US. Even now there are states where guns in bars is okay and more where the issue isn't even addressed by law at least in 2010. Even then also don't know how much the owners care in the more seedy places that serve the sort that would want to carry heavy pistols or SMGs into bars as long as they pay well.

Overall, I'll say I'll expect people to wear armor that is part of normal clothing. If your suit has 4/3 armor, that's a neat benefit when you wear it to work. I can see a lot of people paying extra on their longcoats and greatcoats to make them 6/4 armor. Those that require extra pieces like armor vests and the PPP line I think will be less common simply because who wants to bother with putting them on?

As for firearms, it wouldn't surprise me that firearm ownership is way higher than it is now. So I expect people carrying weapons to be much higher. I doubt they carry their AK-97 (if they own one) into their office, but it might be in the trunk of their car or under their bed. Conceal carry of pistols and tasers will be more common than today for similar reasons. Maybe 5-25% of those on the street depending on how you like your SR world. There's also the fact that 1% of the population are magical and has the potential to just have mind bullets and summon beings made of fire.

[Bull]

One of the early SR books... I want to say it was the 1st ed core book, actually, described Shadowrun's setting as something a bit like the Old West. Guns are a common site, though not everyone carries one.

Some areas it's more common than others, and plenty of places will restrict you from taking guns in. Look at most 1st and 2nd ed adventures... You had to "check in" your weapons at the bars and clubs when you went in.

In SR4, with AR and the way licenses work, if you're carrying a Pistol and have a License (legal or not), no ones going to look at you twice (Unless, of course, you're in a place that specifically prohibits guns, just like RL today where even with a carry permit you can't take guns into most places of business). Carry anything heavier, legally or not, and the cops will stop and check you out, run the permits, etc.

Bull

[Paul]

Replace "pink hello kitty stuff" with "all-black commando gear". The joke still works. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I agree completely!

Also great comments from all! Thanks!

[Saint Hallow]

Thanks for bringing this up as it's always something that bugged me. If SR4A was more bleaker, or chaotic of a dystopia (like post-apocalyptic & there were no cops/law), I can see folks running around with assault rifles. However, the world is still pretty much intact with bad spots here and there (Barrens, etc..).

[Nath]

As for what is legal in Seattle, Blade. The Books assume Seattle as a basis. So any thing rated "R" is Legal in Seattle, but you must have a License for it. Any thing rated "F" is Not legal, and unless you are in a job position that allows such things (the Military, Knight Errant, etc), you cannot license them at all.

But it doesn't way how difficult it is to get said license. Compare to Gun laws in the US. In some places, all you need is to be over 18, no felony and not mentally ill. In other (New Jersey to be precise), you have to be working for a law enforcement agency or a security company.

[kzt]

The SR fluff is kind of contradictory on a bunch of background things like this. It largely depends on how the writer feels about the world and if the developer/editor know, care or notice.

Insanity like the writeup for Salt Lake City aside, the game makes some sense with a lot of different approaches to weapons. As long as the players and GM all have a common understanding of how it works in your game it will be good.

[cleggster]

If you need to know for a game, you could always refer to the old legality codes. Assigning a code to every weapon in 4th would be a pain, but it could give you an idea what was permited and where. I don't have my books with me at to moment, but I recall that each district had it own security rating. Somthing like AA for downtown and in the "Z"'s in the barrons.

[nezumi]

I imagine it's like everything else in SR; if you have cash, the answer is always 'yes'. Licenses to carry are easily available with a SIN check and a nominal fee (as we see in the book). If you look like a SINNER with some cash, the cops don't even slow down. Of course you have a license! If you look scuzzy and/or poor, odds are a lot lower and they can either bag a crook, or at least a bribe, if they see you packing (and even if they don't see you packing, they're likely to shake you down anyway just to see what they can get from you).

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

But it doesn't way how difficult it is to get said license. Compare to Gun laws in the US. In some places, all you need is to be over 18, no felony and not mentally ill. In other (New Jersey to be precise), you have to be working for a law enforcement agency or a security company.

The ease for which a legitimate citizen can obtain a License is decided by the Individual GM's. I am pretty lenient, others may not be. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Bull]

The ease for which a legitimate citizen can obtain a License is decided by the Individual GM's. I am pretty lenient, others may not be. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Easier, if a bit slower, than getting a fake license.

The key for licenses and whether or not you get hassled is AR... It's one of things SR4 added that can really enhance a game, IMO.

I picture a personal PAN to be a lot like an ID badge. you're not going to put everything out in the open, but your basic ID is accessible by the cops. So all they have to do is look at you, and in AR your name and SIN number pop up. Plus any legal licenses you have. So the cops see you with a Predator on your hip, they do a quick scan, see you have a carry license, and continue on without stopping.

For runners, this is where fake SINs and licenses come in. Runners do the same thing, they're just not on the up and up. But 9 times out of 10, the cops not even going to run your SIN or license. Just like cops don't run every single license plate they see. (Though they will randomly run them, as I've found out).

Where a runner will get into trouble is if he's causing problems, carrying something he shouldn't, or trying to take a gun into a secure area. That's when the checks come into play, and you better hope you bought a decent rating fake ID.

Also, to be fair to the SR writers... It's handled just as unevenly in RL as it is in Shadowrun. I live in a somewhat rural area with a lot of hunters. Earlier today I saw three guys walking through town carrying crossbows and compound bows (Bow season is in full swing at the moment). A cop car drove past them without batting an eyelash. Go to another city, where this is less common, and you better bet the cop would have stopped to talk to the guys.

Each city, each area, has it's own way of handling these things, and their own tolerances. And Shadowrun is even more fractured than modern day.

Bull

[CanRay]

In the Barrens, walking down the street with an AK-97 is just a way of saying "Back the frag off." Doing it Downtown will get yo ass beaten by the po-lice!

Carrying a legal Colt Manhunter in the Barrens will likely get you attacked unless you're wearing it openly. Doing it Downtown will just get your license maybe checked. Unless you're a Metahuman during Lone Star's tenure as officers, then you will get yo ass beaten by the po-lice! Unless you have a human friend with you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[EKBT81]

In some places, all you need is to be over 18, no felony and not mentally ill.

That's how I handle it for UCAS and CAS settings.

Don't forget that one of the best-known subsidiaries of Ares is Weapons World, a superstore chain for weapons and weapons accessories. I guess that indicates that there's a rather large market for personal firearms in the UCAS and that the legal regulations must be fairly accommodating to civilian arms ownership.

[Mayhem_2006]

Reminds me somewhat of the Underground setting where a popular fast food resturaunt (Tastee Ghoul) was selling "Happy ammo boxes" for kids - burger, fries, milkshake and a free small caliber pistol...

And legislation was on the books restricting the caliber of firearms children could carry at school to reduce damage to classroom equipment. Teachers were exempt, but discouraged from using shotguns as there was too much risk of hitting students other than the one you were aiming for...

[Midas]

Don't disagree with most of the posts so far, a bit of a pleasant surprise. Here's my 2 new yen's worth:

Within Corp Enclaves (the AAA corptowns where people live and work), most folk apart from security guards may well be completely unarmed and unarmoured; the reason wage slaves live up to the name and work all hours is because they are shit-scared of losing their job and having their family turned out into the Big Bad Dangerous World.

Wage slaves who have to commute to work will probably be largely unarmed and unarmoured (armoured clothing if anything) inside the corp building, but will likely wear some manner of armour and have small arms (probably light pistols and tasers) for self protection outside. Clubbers will probably be similar but trendier, even if they check in their guns and lined coats at the door of the club.

Most folk in the Barrens will be as heavily armed and armoured as they can, and will travel in groups as a rule. But as has been pointed out firearms and alcohol don't mix very well, so at least in my Barrens most people will be asked to check in anything heavier than a pistol at the door. Bar fights are not uncommon, so most establishments won't want automatic weapons fire from an itchy trigger-finger wiping out most of their regular clientelle.

Heading out into rural areas, especially considering that dangerous paracritters might be around, I imagine pistols, shotguns and sports rifles to be fairly common (outside of bars, as above), but automatics not; in my game world the odd rural run gives sammies that don't shirk the Longarms skill a slight advantage over those that do.

[Ascalaphus]

Don't disagree with most of the posts so far, a bit of a pleasant surprise. Here's my 2 new yen's worth:

Within Corp Enclaves (the AAA corptowns where people live and work), most folk apart from security guards may well be completely unarmed and unarmoured; the reason wage slaves live up to the name and work all hours is because they are shit-scared of losing their job and having their family turned out into the Big Bad Dangerous World.

Wage slaves who have to commute to work will probably be largely unarmed and unarmoured (armoured clothing if anything) inside the corp building, but will likely wear some manner of armour and have small arms (probably light pistols and tasers) for self protection outside. Clubbers will probably be similar but trendier, even if they check in their guns and lined coats at the door of the club.

Most folk in the Barrens will be as heavily armed and armoured as they can, and will travel in groups as a rule. But as has been pointed out firearms and alcohol don't mix very well, so at least in my Barrens most people will be asked to check in anything heavier than a pistol at the door. Bar fights are not uncommon, so most establishments won't want automatic weapons fire from an itchy trigger-finger wiping out most of their regular clientelle.

Heading out into rural areas, especially considering that dangerous paracritters might be around, I imagine pistols, shotguns and sports rifles to be fairly common (outside of bars, as above), but automatics not; in my game world the odd rural run gives sammies that don't shirk the Longarms skill a slight advantage over those that do.

This sounds about right for me too.

[Sengir]

If you need to know for a game, you could always refer to the old legality codes. Assigning a code to every weapon in 4th would be a pain, but it could give you an idea what was permited and where. I don't have my books with me at to moment, but I recall that each district had it own security rating. Somthing like AA for downtown and in the "Z"'s in the barrons.

Yep, the old and more complex availability/legality system had its merits...

[Warlordtheft]

Yep, the old and more complex availability/legality system had its merits...

That was also when they went into each neighborhood in great detail..I do miss that. That was one of things I wished they did more of.