Shadowrun Setting: An Armed Society? Options

[Hida Tsuzua]

If you go with the enclave model of SR life, it leads to an interesting tactic for PCs. These enclaves would have a lot of guards. Due to the increased power of threats compared to modern day first world life, those guards will be well-armed. Since these guards will be drawn from more disadvantaged groups due to them not having better choices and the perceived "tough guy" aura these groups often have, it's a good cover for the ork with an obvious cyberarm. It'll be especially effective if you can get him registered in the guard database via hacking. He might just be able to walk around with full body armor and an AK-97 without issue.

[Daylen]

Don't disagree with most of the posts so far, a bit of a pleasant surprise. Here's my 2 new yen's worth:

Within Corp Enclaves (the AAA corptowns where people live and work), most folk apart from security guards may well be completely unarmed and unarmoured; the reason wage slaves live up to the name and work all hours is because they are shit-scared of losing their job and having their family turned out into the Big Bad Dangerous World.

Wage slaves who have to commute to work will probably be largely unarmed and unarmoured (armoured clothing if anything) inside the corp building, but will likely wear some manner of armour and have small arms (probably light pistols and tasers) for self protection outside. Clubbers will probably be similar but trendier, even if they check in their guns and lined coats at the door of the club.

Most folk in the Barrens will be as heavily armed and armoured as they can, and will travel in groups as a rule. But as has been pointed out firearms and alcohol don't mix very well, so at least in my Barrens most people will be asked to check in anything heavier than a pistol at the door. Bar fights are not uncommon, so most establishments won't want automatic weapons fire from an itchy trigger-finger wiping out most of their regular clientelle.

Heading out into rural areas, especially considering that dangerous paracritters might be around, I imagine pistols, shotguns and sports rifles to be fairly common (outside of bars, as above), but automatics not; in my game world the odd rural run gives sammies that don't shirk the Longarms skill a slight advantage over those that do.

I imagine this would vary greatly by location, as it does now. In UCAS, Seattle, and Cali free state I think you're dead on. In the Shidhe, Ute, CAS and Soux areas I would expect more enclaves to have armed folks and maybe even more openly armed folks. As to armed and alcohol, this will likely vary even more. Some regions might have people at the door asking for weapons, some might have a sign against openly carried weapons, others might not care a bit one way or the other. One thing I've often wondered is the license codes and how they vary by country. For example I couldn't see a permit being required for purchase in CAS; on the other hand I couldn't see running a cyberpunk game in the South, just seems a bit wierd. I'd have a similar thought for Pueblo Ute and Sioux nations, but I have a hard time even buying into much of that mess.

[Daylen]

If you go with the enclave model of SR life, it leads to an interesting tactic for PCs. These enclaves would have a lot of guards. Due to the increased power of threats compared to modern day first world life, those guards will be well-armed. Since these guards will be drawn from more disadvantaged groups due to them not having better choices and the perceived "tough guy" aura these groups often have, it's a good cover for the ork with an obvious cyberarm. It'll be especially effective if you can get him registered in the guard database via hacking. He might just be able to walk around with full body armor and an AK-97 without issue.

Not in the more upscale areas. As with security today I would think the arms used would be more standard issue and quality than an AK. Now if he used an HK or something from Ares, maybe with the right uniform.

[Daylen]

But it doesn't way how difficult it is to get said license. Compare to Gun laws in the US. In some places, all you need is to be over 18, no felony and not mentally ill. In other (New Jersey to be precise), you have to be working for a law enforcement agency or a security company.

In some places you don't need a license, to buy or carry. On restrictions don't forget Illinois where there is no legal means to bear arms, only keep.

[Hida Tsuzua]

Not in the more upscale areas. As with security today I would think the arms used would be more standard issue and quality than an AK. Now if he used an HK or something from Ares, maybe with the right uniform.

Really it's whatever arms the guards use and I picked the AK-97 since I didn't want to just say AR. I would have gotten someone who said "What's an AR?" if I said that. Ideally you'll be using Ares Alphas with the grenade launchers taken off (or better yet an Alpha that was cheaper because it never had the grenade launcher in the first place) because that weapon is so much better than everything else it hurts. Ultimately, it depends on your budget and the quality of your men.

That or you use drones backupped by a few real badasses.

[Paul]

I'm curious when any of you see a (wo)man with a gun what's your first thoughts? The reason I ask is most people seem to get real nervous in the presence of armed individuals. Even if it's a someone who's supposedly on their side. (Uniformed Police and Security personnel are often met with derision and scorn.)

I can see Corporate Security being armed, and visibly announcing their presence with uniforms, emblems etc...in some locations. But I suspect unless there's a clear reason even they'd be reluctant to wheel out the larger weaponry. So in areas where crime is a pretty serious issue (Entrances, exits and some other areas where the public and corporate citizens come into contact with less savory elements.) and sensitive areas.

One of the reason's I see that approach is cost. Training and equipment is only facet of these costs. Liability insurance, payroll, benefits, etc...maintaining a private security force is not cheap. And since most people, even corporate entities, loathe to part with their hard earned cred any more than they have to. (There will always be exceptions, obviously.) So in order to save money when you're designing your security sheath you save where you can. Yes the Sixth World is more violent than ours, but that doesn't mean common sense has to be divorced from the process.

I guess all of this is a long winded way of me saying the right tool for the right job. Armed and armored goons have their place. So does a simple guy in a uniform with a holstered radio and collapsible baton.

[Daylen]

I'm curious when any of you see a (wo)man with a gun what's your first thoughts? The reason I ask is most people seem to get real nervous in the presence of armed individuals. Even if it's a someone who's supposedly on their side. (Uniformed Police and Security personnel are often met with derision and scorn.)

I can see Corporate Security being armed, and visibly announcing their presence with uniforms, emblems etc...in some locations. But I suspect unless there's a clear reason even they'd be reluctant to wheel out the larger weaponry. So in areas where crime is a pretty serious issue (Entrances, exits and some other areas where the public and corporate citizens come into contact with less savory elements.) and sensitive areas.

One of the reason's I see that approach is cost. Training and equipment is only facet of these costs. Liability insurance, payroll, benefits, etc...maintaining a private security force is not cheap. And since most people, even corporate entities, loathe to part with their hard earned cred any more than they have to. (There will always be exceptions, obviously.) So in order to save money when you're designing your security sheath you save where you can. Yes the Sixth World is more violent than ours, but that doesn't mean common sense has to be divorced from the process.

I guess all of this is a long winded way of me saying the right tool for the right job. Armed and armored goons have their place. So does a simple guy in a uniform with a holstered radio and collapsible baton.

What do you base this on? Reactions to police? I think that is right because police are the people that "rats" go to. If you are going to be arrested for something chances are its the police that will do it. Nervousness has more to do with the police than their armed nature. There have been plenty of occasion where I didn't bother to conceal my arms and people were no more nervous; granted I'm not in an area known for its hoplophobia.

[Paul]

What do you base this on?

I don't know. How about reactions to me when I'm in uniform, carrying my duty weapon? Or maybe the reactions officers I know in other departments get when people notice they're armed? or maybe just the way people who don't even know what I do react to people with guns?

I get you're a gun guy, and gun people hate it when anyone mentions they might even be remotely uncomfortable around weapons-but frankly after years and years of carrying a weapon both on and off duty the only person I trust with a weapon is me. And sometimes I'm even dubious of myself.

Now I know my reply is a little tongue and cheek, and sarcastic-but in all seriousness it's been in my experience that few people trust other people with weapons. Guns are an easy weapon to dislike because of their portability, and capacity to create damage so easily. This doesn't mean I am against gun ownership, or their use. Rather I support responsible firearm ownership, just like I support responsible driving, etc...And believe me when I say I enjoy heading down range just as much as any other red blooded American!

[Daylen]

I don't know. How about reactions to me when I'm in uniform, carrying my duty weapon? Or maybe the reactions officers I know in other departments get when people notice they're armed? or maybe just the way people who don't even know what I do react to people with guns?

I get you're a gun guy, and gun people hate it when anyone mentions they might even be remotely uncomfortable around weapons-but frankly after years and years of carrying a weapon both on and off duty the only person I trust with a weapon is me. And sometimes I'm even dubious of myself.

Now I know my reply is a little tongue and cheek, and sarcastic-but in all seriousness it's been in my experience that few people trust other people with weapons. Guns are an easy weapon to dislike because of their portability, and capacity to create damage so easily. This doesn't mean I am against gun ownership, or their use. Rather I support responsible firearm ownership, just like I support responsible driving, etc...And believe me when I say I enjoy heading down range just as much as any other red blooded American!

I don't base my dislike of your statement, "most people seem to get real nervous in the presence of armed individuals", upon anything other than I have noticed a very different reaction (usually none). Just because up north people get nervous around guns does not make it a general theme, except maybe (and only maybe) in UCAS.

[Paul]

I didn't notice much difference when I lived down south either. But you're basically saying in your area people don't seem to mind. I don't live near you so I'm not going to try and argue that. I think it's natural to be respectful and even a little fearful of dangerous things. When I train and when other trainers teach we all universally agree only fools are fearless.

Edit

And if all we're going to do is argue our personal experiences I'll pass.

[Hida Tsuzua]

There is a difference between being respectful and being unsettled by something. I'll be surprised and worried if I saw someone carry around a machete, but in some parts of the world it's just a tool. I note that police are armed, but it's not "oh man I'm so worried about that police officer and his pistol at the donut shop."

A big thing to keep in mind is that we all live in well-ordered societies where the rule of law is extremely strong (I guess we might have some posters from Somalia, Darfur, or some other place undergoing a long terrible civil war). Police are respected in part because they are viewed as making our lives better and not just because they happened to the most powerful men nearby. Therefore, they don't have to resort to use of force as much. They can go far off authority alone.

In the SR universe, this may not be the case. I was born in '85. In the SR universe, I'll be almost hitting 90. I could still be alive especially if I got a leonization treatment. During this time, I would have seen and personally affected by, often directly:
-New York engulfed in food riots (1999)
-World War III almost happening in the Lone Eagle Incident (especially if you go by the older books where the Soviet Union is still around) (2009)
-The Awakening quite possible the ultimate Black Swan as far as understanding how the universe works (2011-2012)
-A civil war involving volcanoes used as tools of terror and ends with half of the US being given away and the mass exodus that causes (2018)
-1 in 10 people suddenly turning into orks and trolls (2021)
-1 in 4 dying in a global pandemic (2010) that repents itself (2022)
-A global computer crash that threatens collapse of civilization (2029)
-A global metahuman lynching in the Night of Rage (2039)
-A large part of Chicago basically sealed up and left for spirits that destroy your mind and mutate your body (2055)
-Worldwide Mana Storms (2061)
-A second worldwide computer crash (2064)

That's a lot of pretty big events, many of which involve deep threats to one's security, life, and/or sense of understanding of the world. I'm also not counting stuff that might not affect me personally like the EuroWars, all the chemical & nuclear & natural disasters, the destruction of the Sears Tower, Australia undergoing massive manastorms, the Japanese takeover and killings in San Francisco, the nuclear exchange of India and Pakistan, and public lynching of suspected technomancers. There's also the low level but constant paracritter and ghoul attacks (that can make you one of them even if you survive) as well.

There also have been legally accepted urban militia units armed with military weaponry and ability to hire them for personal protection since 2010 in the US and other places in the globe. That means I could have hired these guys for over 60 years. I might get used to them by then.

None of this proves that the SR world is a world where everyone has PTSD and carries at minimum an AK-97 with them at all times. People's view of the SR world vary wildly from the violent dystopias of the 80s and 90s (Robocop, Johnny Mnemonic, The Running Man and the like) to just like modern life but with better technology and elves.

[CanRay]

Watch the Subway scene in Predator II. That's how I see it.

[Daylen]

Watch the Subway scene in Predator II. That's how I see it.

If I remember correctly everyone pulls out a weapon when a mugging or some such is attempted. Seems about right from memory.

Wasn't there an old lady or something with a huge revolver or so?

[Daylen]

There is a difference between being respectful and being unsettled by something. I'll be surprised and worried if I saw someone carry around a machete, but in some parts of the world it's just a tool. I note that police are armed, but it's not "oh man I'm so worried about that police officer and his pistol at the donut shop."

A big thing to keep in mind is that we all live in well-ordered societies where the rule of law is extremely strong (I guess we might have some posters from Somalia, Darfur, or some other place undergoing a long terrible civil war). Police are respected in part because they are viewed as making our lives better and not just because they happened to the most powerful men nearby. Therefore, they don't have to resort to use of force as much. They can go far off authority alone.
...

In many regions surprise is about the extent of the reaction; I hear in AZ its very common for people to be armed and in the South (MS,AL,LA) anyway its common and becoming more so every year.

[CanRay]

Watch the Subway scene in Predator II. That's how I see it.

If I remember correctly everyone pulls out a weapon when a mugging or some such is attempted. Seems about right from memory.

Wasn't there an old lady or something with a huge revolver or so?

The guy being targeted pulled a snub-nosed .38 from his briefcase. The punk pulled, some kind of larger revolver, I think. Everyone else on the train pulled various weapons.

I only had it on VHS, so I couldn't pause it for a more detailed look. Or a screen shot. Might have to see about getting them on DVD someday.

[kzt]

In many regions surprise is about the extent of the reaction; I hear in AZ its very common for people to be armed and in the South (MS,AL,LA) anyway its common and becoming more so every year.

It's still not "common" to open carry in town even in rural AZ, much less Phoenix. People don't stare and point when someone walks into Safeway in Chino Valley with a 45, but it's uncommon. Concealed, who knows? I know I normally only open carried a few weeks ago when I was going from the range right back to the hotel, I'd go concealed if I was going shopping or getting something to eat first.

But people are blind, so "concealed" is a relative term.

[Daylen]

It's still not "common" to open carry in town even in rural AZ, much less Phoenix. People don't stare and point when someone walks into Safeway in Chino Valley with a 45, but it's uncommon. Concealed, who knows? I know I normally only open carried a few weeks ago when I was going from the range right back to the hotel, I'd go concealed if I was going shopping or getting something to eat first.

But people are blind, so "concealed" is a relative term.

Seems that is true more than some might think... http://www.ammoland.com/2009/07/19/gun-own...arket-shooting/

Even with those who are supposedly looking for the one to shoot first.

[Daylen]

For those that think SR is fairly well armed: do you put this in practice when you GM? Have the Runners ever gotten into a shootout and had bystanders get involved? or perhaps when the runners push by some bystanders, in a cavalier way reminiscent of 80s action movies, do the bystanders ever return fire?

Or do you run the game more like Paranoia where bystanders are like rats, insignificant, not really capable of much, but everywhere underfoot. For those who might not know of Paranoia it is a tongue in cheek rpg with a 1984esk plot and rules.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Or do you run the game more like Paranoia where bystanders are like rats, insignificant, not really capable of much, but everywhere underfoot. For those who might not know of Paranoia it is a tongue in cheek rpg with a 1984esk plot and rules.

Not knowing about Paranoia is treason.
Treason is punished by death.
Please follow the lights on the floor to the nearest desintegration chamber. Have a nice day!

[Paul]

I like my NPC's to make sense. It's not an either or situation. Some will be armed. Some will not be armed. of those who are armed-some will know what they're doing, some will not. Some of those will take actions some won't. As I see it if the players do something there should be internally consistent reactions.

So in example if a character wields a submachine gun in a mall where weapons are frowned upon, people will call 911 (Or the sixth world equivalent), snap real time video, some will seek cover-if it makes sense a particularly brazen individual may even interact with our lone gunman. If for some reason I've got an armed crowd some of them may even draw their weapons-but unless threatened, or possessing certain prejudiced they wouldn't get involved unless they felt they could safely do so. (So shooting somebody in the back is a lot less risky than standing in front of the armed gunman who is armored and maybe cybered, especially when you lack good cover and concealment.)

For me the answer is internally consistent response to the PC's actions. Nothing happens in a vacuum. I also admit that I will be biased towards whatever tells the best story, and is the most fun.

[CanRay]

Not knowing about Paranoia is treason.
Treason is punished by death.
Please follow the lights on the floor to the nearest desintegration chamber. Have a nice day!

Funny, actually, I'll be running Paranoia and Shadowrun demos next weekend...

[Daylen]

Funny, actually, I'll be running Paranoia and Shadowrun demos next weekend...

In my mind every game of Paranoia goes like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpgqZ3JoRIc

[CanRay]

So far, none of my demos have even gotten that far. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[kzt]

For those that think SR is fairly well armed: do you put this in practice when you GM? Have the Runners ever gotten into a shootout and had bystanders get involved? or perhaps when the runners push by some bystanders, in a cavalier way reminiscent of 80s action movies, do the bystanders ever return fire?

Or do you run the game more like Paranoia where bystanders are like rats, insignificant, not really capable of much, but everywhere underfoot. For those who might not know of Paranoia it is a tongue in cheek rpg with a 1984esk plot and rules.

I can't remember where we had bystanders. We always tried to be the aggressors and we were inside someone else mostly empty facility at 2am.

IRL, don't get involved in someone else's shootout/crime scene unless you are sure of exactly what is going on. Shooting the dirtbag attacking some dude who is really an undercover cop arresting a crook will never work out well for you.

[CanRay]

I had my group *BE* the bystanders of a shoot-out once. They turned down the wrong corner and saw a drug deal going down. Big briefcases. The sudden appearance of a black SUV made both sides scream "Set Up" in different languages and start mowing each other down, along with shooting at the Shadowrunners. In the end, the armour of the SUV saved the 'Runners and they got some nice briefcases and firearms.

Too bad it was a Vice Bust... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif)