Shadowrun Setting: An Armed Society? Options

[Daylen]

If you are posing as a worker you don't bring your assault rifle to work unless it's "Ares Bring your Alpha to Work Day!"

How many people do you personally know who were killed because were not wearing a seat belt? I don't know anyone personally. Statistically it's highly unlikely that I will need to wear a seatbelt on any give day. Does that mean I don't put on a seat belt? No.

It's extremely unlikely that on any given day you will need a gun. I do know several people who have found themselves in a situation facing bad people who intended to do bad things to them and convinced them to desist so while aiming a firearm at them. Possibly what convinced them was the force of their personality, but I have my doubts.

At Ares I would think that is AT LEAST every friday.

Its nice to have a fire extinguisher in the home in case a fire threatens. Same goes for a gun and something life threatening. In 2070 the setting is much more dangerous to everyday life than today, and even today plenty of people carry a pistol every day with no attachment to military or paramilitary.

[Daylen]

My two cents: How many people who legally own firearms nowadays will (outside of a military situation) actually utilize those firearms in an act of self-defense or self-preservation? I would imagine it will be a very, very small percentage.

Now, does that small chance actually impact the number of people who own firearms? I doubt it. To a lot of people, it's a nice thing to have... a security blanket of sorts, a 'better to have and not need than need and not have' security measure. I would imagine it's the same with the world of 2070. If firearms are legal and commonly available (and depending on the location, they are and they definitely are) then I imagine you'd have at least the same percentage of people owning those then, as you have now... for primarily the same reasons.

Security blanket? So you are implying having a firearm even in the case of being threatened by two leggers a firearm would do no good? I would say it is more like a fire extinguisher, sure can make a difference if used when fire first starts.

In a lot of the shadowrun stories, the majority of corporate employees seem to act like the corporate employees of today: They trust in authority to take care of things... it's why Panicbuttons are so prevalent. From what I've read, other than the occasional global issue (IE crash 2.0) many employees will rarely if ever see the shadowy side of the dystopia they live in (unless you live in a Pink Mohawk campaign, perhaps, where a building blows up every other day) and those situations that arise should (in the belief of the employee) be taken care of by corporate/government security.

A corp employee who owns a firearm will most likely do so out of a sense of comfort, not out of any kind of 'statistical chance of conflict' or what have you. Realistically, in the case of a corporate sheep getting caught up in an actual shadowrun going down in the proximity? Three words: Someone else's problem. The typical response of most of these people will be to hide, hit the panic button, and wait for the scary noise to go away. Let the heavily armed and armored security force respond to the threat... that's how it works now, and I imagine it'll be even worse 60 years from now when someone built (cybernetically) for combat has such a massive edge over the typical employee built around a deskjob. This is especially true as Shadowrun seems to move further and further away from runs involving violent conflict and random collateral damage, and more towards the black trenchcoat, in-and-out, subtle runs.

Realistically, most will recognize that having a pistol will not make an ounce of difference between being killed and not being killed (especially when the chances of your attacker having incredible speed, reflexes, implanted aiming hardware, and heavy subdermal bodyarmor), at least on a logical level... and so owning a firearm is not based upon reason, but (again) upon emotion/feeling safe. As such, I believe that shadowrun has no more and no less of an armed society than the locations they're based around now. Heck, in 2070, even a lot of the awakened wildlife seems to have been cleared out of the major population centers. Gone, typically, are the days of a random hellhound chewing on somebody in Seattle's business district. As to the barrens? Well, many corp citizens will make a long, healthy life goal of not going to the Barrens. At some point, the only way for an employee to survive a firefight with a typical street sam will be to become a street sam on his own, at which point... what company will hire him for a typical desk job? That kind of paranoia (is it really paranoia when it could some day be necessary?) looks bad and might freak out the other employees... plus, obviously, someone decked out as a street sam for a desk job is a shadowrunner in disguise... even if he's not!

Not all trouble comes from runners. There are regular criminals and thugs that like to steal from wageslaves and the megas when they can. And remember the build rules for a runner are far above the average person, they are top notch in ability. Carrying a firearm in-case of runners would be like carrying in-case of the 101st showing up today; runners aren't the reason. Its the lesser threats. Now perhaps some old timers still do carry their warhawk on their side loaded with exex or apds in case of hellhounds with a rifle chambered in 577 tyrannosaur in their truck because they remember seeing hellhounds eating someone in a back alley on a regular enough basis.

This brings up another point... how often do shadowrunners infiltrate businesses by posing for entry-level jobs? Would this kind of behavior lead companies to be suspicious of employees with heavier-than-typical weapons and armor? Even arms and armor that are legal... why would they need that kind of firepower? Etc, etc.

Again, just my two cents.

How often to runners infiltrate businesses with by showing up saying hi I"m Joe, take no heed of the heavy flak jacket and full body armor nor the ingram valiant on my hip? If that is normal for your games then I must say you play in the most pink mohawk I've heard of. Personally, when my PC is infiltrating (assuming its one that can do so), I'm not going to look any different from a worker, so in Ares I'd have two or three pistols of different sizes concealed on me and on Fridays I'd have my Ares Alpha on my back. Bring your rifle to work day of course (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Umbralfox]

How often to runners infiltrate businesses with by showing up saying hi I"m Joe, take no heed of the heavy flak jacket and full body armor nor the ingram valiant on my hip? If that is normal for your games then I must say you play in the most pink mohawk I've heard of. Personally, when my PC is infiltrating (assuming its one that can do so), I'm not going to look any different from a worker, so in Ares I'd have two or three pistols of different sizes concealed on me and on Fridays I'd have my Ares Alpha on my back. Bring your rifle to work day of course (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Sorry, I might have written my point a bit murky. What I meant to say was, the person who consistently goes to work armed to the utmost in terms of legal gear (including what little non-restricted combat cybernetics there are, as well as non-restricted arms and armor) is going to stand out as a potential threat. Without that kind of protection, however, he has no real protection against the biggest threat to a corporate environment: Shadowrunners.

Now, as to the risk of petty criminals and such? I would imagine that is minimal in most secured zones where there majority of corporate citizens will be living, though the SINless will of course have a different experience in regards to living arrangements. Corp-run apartments will most likely have at least some armed security, and private security is a rather potent security force for areas under its control, which will include a lot of areas involving the SINless (though granted, none of the worst areas like the Barrens).

As to the security blanket comment, there's still a world of difference between a gun and a fire extinguisher, though if the situation ever comes up where one or the other is needed, then yes, it's better to have one than not. The difference between the two is that in case of a house fire the housefire won't say "Oh crud, he's going for the extinguisher, I need to deal with him first," whereas a criminal seeing you go for the gun will have to make a decision regarding what he wants to do.

One of the things I was instructed when undergoing firearm training was, in the case of a mugging, don't go for the gun if the person you're dealing with already has a gun on you. Slowly grab your wallet, slowly withdraw it, and then toss it on the ground in such a way that the assailant will be likely to let you go without incident. Your wallet is not worth your life. I would imagine that muggings would be the majority of incidents that involve a gun outside of the home (both in SR and IRL) for the typical SINner/SINless, though YMMV depending upon where you live (as pointed out, living in an area like Louisiana probably throw those statistics further from mugging and more towards self-defense from Awakened wildlife). Within the home, sure, someone breaking in will likely grant you the time to arm yourself before they come into view, at which point you have your gun on them before (hopefully) they have theirs on you. It will not (in SR) grant you the time to put on your body armor, which common thugs might or might not have... but at least the one petty crook I was able to locate in Core (go-ganger) was armed with an armored vest and an MP. Not a concern IRL, since not many petty crooks have body armor, heh. What I'm getting at here is that in your typical SR world, owning a gun and carrying it outside of your house (what I consider to be an armed society) will often be a pointless (or even risky) maneuver; guns are a valuable commodity, and you're likely to have one pointed at you before you can point your gun at the criminal. Does this impact the number of guns per household, or the number of small arms carried outside of the home? I doubt it... in the same way that I doubt that consideration comes into play nowadays.

Will you ever need your gun for home defense? Most likely not. Will you ever need a fire extinguisher to prevent your home burning down? Again, most likely not. Are they nice to have? Yes. Are the statistics around the likelihood of you ever needing a gun in a first world country for home defense a major factor in determining whether a society is armed with guns? I would imagine not. As has been pointed out, firing a gun (while hunting, or at a range, or what have you) can be a satisfying experience; I would imagine that doesn't change in the next sixty years.

[CanRay]

Bring your daughter to work day?

[Saint Hallow]

Bring your daughter to work day?

Only if your daughter is a lesbian elf stripper ninja.

[CanRay]

She's an Oni Tank for a Shadowrun group, actually. Shortcake posts here occasionally as well. I invited her.

Yes, blame me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[kzt]

Notwithstanding what you had to say about ownership for self-preservation - and I think you made an excellent point - we should also all remember that probably the majority of people today don't own firearms for self-defense, either: they own them for hunting, and pest control, as collectible items, as heirlooms. Surely this trend will continue into the future, as well.

The vast majority of people I know who own firearms don't buy very many for hunting, most have never bought a single one to hunt with. If you define "pest control" very broadly that would cover their intended use. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Though mostly they get used to make holes in cardboard.

[Daylen]

Bring your daughter to work day?

Its not time to post ponies yet is it?

[Daylen]

The vast majority of people I know who own firearms don't buy very many for hunting, most have never bought a single one to hunt with. If you define "pest control" very broadly that would cover their intended use. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Though mostly they get used to make holes in cardboard.

Pest control can vary by location. Some people consider it rats, I've had pests that needed buck shot; and got they got away because I only had 22lr at the time.

[MortVent]

Pest control can vary by location. Some people consider it rats, I've had pests that needed buck shot; and got they got away because I only had 22lr at the time.

Well where I live buck shot just annoys some, though most wild hogs do go down with a couple blasts your really need slugs. (want an idea about how tough trolls are... look at some swamp hogs out there that shrug off hits from many rounds on the small end.. watched someone empty a viper .22 into a boar and do nothing but annoy it, I dropped it with the 12 gauge as he ran by followed by said boar hog. We never did get that boy out hunting again)

[Daylen]

...
As to the security blanket comment, there's still a world of difference between a gun and a fire extinguisher, though if the situation ever comes up where one or the other is needed, then yes, it's better to have one than not. The difference between the two is that in case of a house fire the housefire won't say "Oh crud, he's going for the extinguisher, I need to deal with him first," whereas a criminal seeing you go for the gun will have to make a decision regarding what he wants to do.

Well of course there is a difference one uses burning solid propellant to expel a single use internal combustion piston out of the barrel very quickly; the other uses liquid (or gas) propellant to expel a fire retarding liquid or gas out of a nozzle. But the basic principle is the same, when a fire starts a fire extinguisher is a good tool stop the threat of fire with; when a critter threatens your life a firearm is a good tool to stop the threat with.

One of the things I was instructed when undergoing firearm training was, in the case of a mugging, don't go for the gun if the person you're dealing with already has a gun on you. Slowly grab your wallet, slowly withdraw it, and then toss it on the ground in such a way that the assailant will be likely to let you go without incident. Your wallet is not worth your life. I would imagine that muggings would be the majority of incidents that involve a gun outside of the home (both in SR and IRL) for the typical SINner/SINless, though YMMV depending upon where you live (as pointed out, living in an area like Louisiana probably throw those statistics further from mugging and more towards self-defense from Awakened wildlife). Within the home, sure, someone breaking in will likely grant you the time to arm yourself before they come into view, at which point you have your gun on them before (hopefully) they have theirs on you. It will not (in SR) grant you the time to put on your body armor, which common thugs might or might not have... but at least the one petty crook I was able to locate in Core (go-ganger) was armed with an armored vest and an MP. Not a concern IRL, since not many petty crooks have body armor, heh. What I'm getting at here is that in your typical SR world, owning a gun and carrying it outside of your house (what I consider to be an armed society) will often be a pointless (or even risky) maneuver; guns are a valuable commodity, and you're likely to have one pointed at you before you can point your gun at the criminal. Does this impact the number of guns per household, or the number of small arms carried outside of the home? I doubt it... in the same way that I doubt that consideration comes into play nowadays.

Since everything I want to type in retort is really too much RL I'm just going to try and leave this alone.

Will you ever need your gun for home defense? Most likely not. Will you ever need a fire extinguisher to prevent your home burning down? Again, most likely not. Are they nice to have? Yes. Are the statistics around the likelihood of you ever needing a gun in a first world country for home defense a major factor in determining whether a society is armed with guns? I would imagine not. As has been pointed out, firing a gun (while hunting, or at a range, or what have you) can be a satisfying experience; I would imagine that doesn't change in the next sixty years.

Are you refering to those living totally within an archology? or in general. Remeber its not just Archology or barrens. For the Archology I'd think you'd be largely right with most people not carrying or owning a weapon, such would ruin their illusion of safety. For those outside an archology there are enough extra threats (dystopia + critters) where I couldn't see many leaving home without some sort of weapon, this goes double for barrens. For dystopia I always go back to bad 80s movies. I couldn't see anyone in "old Detroit" not carrying something and practicing the quickdraw, and heck having a false wallet that has a pistol in it so one can hand over a bullet instead of cash.

[CanRay]

Its not time to post ponies yet is it?

No.

Pest control can vary by location. Some people consider it rats, I've had pests that needed buck shot; and got they got away because I only had 22lr at the time.

Well where I live buck shot just annoys some, though most wild hogs do go down with a couple blasts your really need slugs. (want an idea about how tough trolls are... look at some swamp hogs out there that shrug off hits from many rounds on the small end.. watched someone empty a viper .22 into a boar and do nothing but annoy it, I dropped it with the 12 gauge as he ran by followed by said boar hog. We never did get that boy out hunting again)

Northern Ontario, the "Pests" can sometimes not notice a .303 British Service or 7.92mm Mauser if you don't hit them right.

In fact, most people driving at night hate modern cars due to plastic, Styrofoam, and crumple zones as they only INJURE "Pests" on the road, and now your car/truck won't work anymore and you have near a ton of injured and pissed off animal in front of you. With horns. (Well, antlers.).

[Daylen]

No.Northern Ontario, the "Pests" can sometimes not notice a .303 British Service or 7.92mm Mauser if you don't hit them right.

In fact, most people driving at night hate modern cars due to plastic, Styrofoam, and crumple zones as they only INJURE "Pests" on the road, and now your car/truck won't work anymore and you have near a ton of injured and pissed off animal in front of you. With horns. (Well, antlers.).

AND I hear you guys don't get to legally have a truck gun? Funny that you Canadians think of the ol 303 before a modern cartridge. If I was up north I'd have to size up from 40S&W to probably 10mm or 454casul and I don't even know where to begin for the truck gun, maybe something like a 450 marlin or 338 Lapua.

[CanRay]

Most hunters I know have old rifles that have been in the family for years. *Shrugs* Northern Ontario is pretty Redneck that way. There are the other rounds you mentioned (Well, except the pistols. It's damned hard to get a pistol license, and then registering the damned thing. Then having the police over every time there's a shooting in the city in that caliber.), and there are people that use them.

But if you're going after something that's dangerous enough to be considered a "Pest", you use the firearm you know works. "All the skill in the world goes for naught when an Angel pisses in your priming pan."

EDIT: And, no, the firearms and ammunition must be kept in separate locked boxes at all times, even at home. Where they have to be kept a certain distance away. At least, that was the law last I heard.

[kzt]

Are you refering to those living totally within an archology? or in general. Remeber its not just Archology or barrens. For the Archology I'd think you'd be largely right with most people not carrying or owning a weapon, such would ruin their illusion of safety.

John Ringo had a great take on the attitude of the people running archologies about weapons. I think there were less than 12 survivors when it turned out that the people running the archology were wrong. ...

[Sengir]

Will you ever need your gun for home defense? Most likely not. Will you ever need a fire extinguisher to prevent your home burning down? Again, most likely not. Are they nice to have? Yes. Are the statistics around the likelihood of you ever needing a gun in a first world country for home defense a major factor in determining whether a society is armed with guns? I would imagine not.

You are assuming people make decisions based on objective assessment of likely dangers. They don't. Human psychology is to think of threats which are exceedingly rare but big, scary, and somewhat "exotic", to distract us from the hundreds of completely mundane (heh) threats surrounding us at all times.
That is why people arm themselves against home invasions while relying on a flimsy lock when away, or buy enough fire extinguishers for an oil refinery but don't have smoke alerts. Communist Nazi terrorists invading one's home and huge blazes have the certain thing, burglaries in empty houses and smouldering fires at night are just booooring.

So yes, Shadowrunners or spontaneously manifesting rifts to the metaplane of Oh Crap sound like real popular reasons to have a Manhunter under the pillow.

[Daylen]

You are assuming people make decisions based on objective assessment of likely dangers. They don't. Human psychology is to think of threats which are exceedingly rare but big, scary, and somewhat "exotic", to distract us from the hundreds of completely mundane (heh) threats surrounding us at all times.
That is why people arm themselves against home invasions while relying on a flimsy lock when away, or buy enough fire extinguishers for an oil refinery but don't have smoke alerts. Communist Nazi terrorists invading one's home and huge blazes have the certain thing, burglaries in empty houses and smouldering fires at night are just booooring.

So yes, Shadowrunners or spontaneously manifesting rifts to the metaplane of Oh Crap sound like real popular reasons to have a Manhunter under the pillow.

Its not to distract from more mundane threats, its because when those rare big scary threats come true, that its all over for those who didn't prepare. Burglaries when no one is home means stuff is taken, Ghengis Khan invading threatens you and your entire genetic pool. There is a reason many people prepare for extreme catastrophes.

However, regardless of the base reason the implication sounds interesting. How many people do you think would pack a vindicator in their trunk in the parking lot of Ares, just in case shadowrunners show up?

What is a Manhunter? And how would I keep such a creature from eating me if it is under my pillow? or are you assuming everyone is a paranormal handler?

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

What is a Manhunter? And how would I keep such a creature from eating me if it is under my pillow? or are you assuming everyone is a paranormal handler?

Manhunter is high-caliber revolver/pistol. Can't remember which one right now.

[CanRay]

Manhunter is high-caliber revolver/pistol. Can't remember which one right now.

Colt Manhunter: High-Caliber, High-Capacity Semi-Automatic Pistol with an integrated laser sight, it was the primary competitor against the Ares Predator II & III (Which integrated a Smartgun Link) for people that didn't want the cybernetics for a Smartgun System (Dirk carried one in 2XS.). With the Wireless Smartgun System no longer requiring cybernetics to operate, it's lost the fight to the Ares Predator IV.

It's still popular with Shadowrunners that prefer a firearm that isn't covered in RFID tags of all sorts inside the entire structure of the pistol, however, as a large number were built before those days were around. Or those that don't want a Wireless Pistol that can be hacked.

My personal favorite for how it looked until the Colt Government Model 2066 came out. (Although the Ares Predator I has it's appeal as well.).

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Much obliged, I think there is a picture of one of these in Urban Samurai's Catalogue, right?

[CanRay]

Much obliged, I think there is a picture of one of these in Urban Samurai's Catalogue, right?

Yes. I think it was duplicated (In smaller form) in Arsenal as well. Street Samurai's Catalog (Maybe translated differently if you have a different language version, however.).

[ShadowJackal]

Knowing someone, personally, who shot and killed someone who broke into her home during a home invasion I'm more inclined to see the risks that justify. I like the fire extinguisher analogy, seems apropos.

[Sengir]

Its not to distract from more mundane threats

Psychologists beg to differ, and I'm talking about threats with an "if" not with a "when" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

As for the effectiveness of such behavior, a completely not-gun example: Most deadly falls happen from heights of 1-2 m. When working at greater heights, people secure themselves because everybody knows a 10 m drop is REALLY dangerous. But who worries about falling off the ladder while fixing the ceiling light?

[kzt]

I had someone give a talk on risk analysis. His point was that there are two classes of threats you should focus on. First, the high probability low impact threats - these will be annoying, but happen frequently; as they can bleed you dry. Second, the low probability very high impact threats, these pose a serious risk to the operation or existence of the organization as a whole. If they happen and are not countered it's a serious disaster.

Low probability threats that are not devastating are not really worth a lot of preparation, but if you can trivially stop them you should. If you have high probability threats that have anything other then low impact you need to fix that right now.

The trick with all of these is actually doing risk analysis, not risk ignoring.

[Daylen]

Psychologists beg to differ, and I'm talking about threats with an "if" not with a "when" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

As for the effectiveness of such behavior, a completely not-gun example: Most deadly falls happen from heights of 1-2 m. When working at greater heights, people secure themselves because everybody knows a 10 m drop is REALLY dangerous. But who worries about falling off the ladder while fixing the ceiling light?

Psychology is not a real science. I try to get behavioral information from evolutionary biologists. Who dies from falling 1-2m? That sounds like deceit through statistics, by including the decrepit; this is assuming you have not just made up that fact on the spot.