Camoflouge vs chameleon suit, Why bother with 1 over the other? Options

[Saint Hallow]

Camouflage suits offer a bonus to infiltration & other stealth like stuff in the appropriate areas, if the camo matches the environment. Chameleon suits have the Ruthenium coating with allows them to blend with everything.

So why bother getting camo suits when chameleon is so much better & goes with everything? Does the chameleon suit have any drawbacks? Since it's a tech based item, seems like it would show up on heat sensors or other sensors that pick up energy, as the suit must use power to operate it's light-bending capabilities, while camo doesn't.

However, if it's only heat, adding Thermal Dampening would fix that no worries. Any thoughts or ideas, or is camo outdated & useless if you can grab chameleon.

[Loch]

Don't camo suits also have better armor?

[Saint Hallow]

Only by 2 points. So far, camo is cheaper (by a lot) that chameleon, & offers 2 points better protection. It also doesn't need a license to get as it's not restricted. However, you can wear chameleon everywhere, & get a -4 perception bonus as opposed to the -2 you get from camo (if it's in the right setting, a +2 penalty if it's not).

[Irion]

Yes, chameleon is better...

[TheOOB]

Better armor, much less expensive, much lower availability(and not restricted at all).

While it's true that chameleon suits are generally better for stealth, most paramilitary groups(corp security, mercs, ect), would rather save the money and get the better armored one instead. For runners it's useful if you need to do a border crossing and can't afford to take restricted gear, it'll be to get through most checkpoints, and even available on the other side on the open market.

[KarmaInferno]

As pointed out elsewhere, Ruthenium Polymer coating trumps them both.




-k

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

The idea is to get a full-body suit armor (which the camouflage armor is one) and apply Ruthenium to it. TA DA! Now you have a piece of armor with the same penalty to Perception with better armor.

[Redjack]

Remember: Chameleon suits change pattern to match their surroundings, camo suits have a set pattern and the -2 only applies where the pattern is relevant; Elsewhere it is +2 bonus to perception.

[Yerameyahu]

I'm glad someone already pointed out the obvious: things have different Avail, price, etc. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It's like asking, 'why buy a Ford when there's Ferrari right there?'

[Ed_209a]

One other neat thing you can do with Camo armor plays off this:

"Electrochromic threads that change color with low voltage, flexible screens, woven fiberoptics, and similar features allow you to alter
the color or display complex images and patterns. Combined with a wireless link, you can set your clothing to display messages and images
from a library file on your commlink, change color according to the weather forecast, or even glow brighter when in the vicinity of more
commlinks."
- SR4, 20th anniv, pg326, Clothing and Armor

My GM lets me download a reasonable number of "skins" on to my link, and load them into my camo armor as needed. It's nowhere as fast or as complete as Ruthenium, of course, but if I need to go from woodland camo pattern #4 to urban camo pattern #12, I can do so in a reasonable amount of time.

End result, if you have some prep time, and a few sec to change the skin when you change environment, you always get the -2.

[Yerameyahu]

… That doesn't sound like Camo Suit at all. It seems to be talking about 'clothing', not 'armor', and doesn't say anything about peforming any camo effect (nor mitigating the camo-mismatch penalty, let alone getting the -2 bonus). It sounds like cheating; if it were possible *and* inherent, why would the camo suit rules even exist?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

… That doesn't sound like Camo Suit at all. It seems to be talking about 'clothing', not 'armor', and doesn't say anything about peforming any camo effect (nor mitigating the camo-mismatch penalty, let alone getting the -2 bonus). It sounds like cheating; if it were possible *and* inherent, why would the camo suit rules even exist?

And yet, you can use the Ruthenium Coating to do just what is being discussed. It is MORE EXPENSIVE. so it is not really all that big of a concern.
This is not uncommon in game, from what I understand.

[Yerameyahu]

No one said you couldn't, TJ. He said you could do it *without Ruthenium*, for free, by default. Pay attention. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Larsine]

The chameleon suit is a tech based item, so it might be sensitive to EMP attacks.

[Yerameyahu]

Essentially the only thing vulnerable to EMP is Signal.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

No one said you couldn't, TJ. He said you could do it *without Ruthenium*, for free, by default. Pay attention. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

My point was that it is not Cheating, as you stated... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
It did not seem like that was what he was saying, either, since he was apparently quoting the use of Ruthenium Polymers (Rather than the Chameleon Suit). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

And my point is that it *is* cheating to claim the powers of Ruthenium… without actually buying and using Ruthenium. He was specifically quoting a *non-use* of Ruthenium, if you'd check the book reference.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

And my point is that it *is* cheating to claim the powers of Ruthenium… without actually buying and using Ruthenium. He was specifically quoting a *non-use* of Ruthenium, if you'd check the book reference.

Got it. Did not look at the book. Let me do that... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
After having read it. I see the passage as a description (read: Fluff) of Basic and Advanced Ruthenium Systems. Which you would have to buy, Just like the implanted comlink (from the fluff description in the passage) in the shirt, etc. Fluff does not a rule make, after all.

Basic Ruthenium does everything the passage says it does.
Advanced Ruthenium is more along the lines of the Chameleon Suit.

*shrug*

Have to agree with you on the 'Cheating' if he is not actually purchasing the basic ruthenium capabilities.

[Yerameyahu]

Yes. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The dangers of finagling powers out of fluff, especially for anti-logical munchkin reasons.

[Saint Hallow]

Ruthenium aside, while camo maybe cheaper, it's for a particular environment. So, to cover all the possible environments a runner can goto, chameleon is cheaper as it has the ability to go anywhere.

As for ruthenium, it seems that is the goto for covering all your gear so you can be "stealthy".

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Ruthenium aside, while camo maybe cheaper, it's for a particular environment. So, to cover all the possible environments a runner can goto, chameleon is cheaper as it has the ability to go anywhere.

As for ruthenium, it seems that is the goto for covering all your gear so you can be "stealthy".

But you could take the Camouflage, put Ruthenium Coating on it (without getting all the expensive sensor upgrades for full Chameleon Suit) for far cheaper than the Chameleon Suit, and still get the +2 Camouflage in any environment (whether moving or not). It just takes a little programming/download time to get the appropriate "Camoflauge Pattern" for the environment and apply it to the Camouflage suit.

Easy Peasy.

[Ed_209a]

This is the train of logic I presented to my GM:

Based on my above quote, and the fact that there is no listed charge for clothing that can change color or pattern, I deduce that it is so cheap and easy in 2070 that most clothes will have that feature.

Based on the armor descriptions (that same page), all the armor in the base book, except for the full body armor, is made from flexible ballistic materials. Some might add hard ballistic plates for extra protection. In either case, they would require some kind of fabric garment to hold the armor panels together and make them look remotely normal.

So far, we have two key facts: Fabric that can change its appearance is cheap in the 2070s, and most armor would have a fabric outer layer.

Now for the speculation: A camo suit is just an armored garment that has a specific set of colors and patterns on it. Does it make sense that a military-grade combat uniform would lack a feature that your Trog-o-palooza '71 souvenir t-shirt has?

To answer some of your concerns, no this isn't ruthenium for free. This is starting the day with one camo pattern, and later taking a few turns with my commlink to find a more appropriate camo pattern and then waiting a turn or so for the new settings to load and the pigments to change. It still gets the same -2 die pool mod, and if my environment changes, until I take the time to change patterns, I would take the +2 die pool penalty.

It is an important distinction that the camo suit has a static pattern, while the Chameleon suit has a dynamic pattern. The camo suit just takes a representative set of colors and shapes that blend into an environment, a chameleon suit copies that exact locale. Even down to the NERPS ad on the wall behind you.

Lastly, guys, I hope the posts just didn't come out the way you intended, but don't accuse me of cheating in a matter that didn't happen at your table.. I cleared this idea with the final arbiter of crunch and fluff at my table, my GM, so it is right, at my table. You can say that it wouldn't be allowed at your table, but that it all.

[Yerameyahu]

It's not 'full ruthenium', but it's definitely doing something that the rules do not say the camo suit can do. It's also doing something that the rules strongly imply the camo suit cannot do. It is *also* inventing new rules to account for this ('waiting a turn or so', etc.).

I wasn't talking about whether it made sense in the game world, but whether it made sense in the game rules: it doesn't. You're talking about house rules, that alter the game balance, for free. And while every table is free to change *any* rule, that doesn't change the base, common rules. Sorry if your feelings were hurt, but you're certainly cheating per the actual base rules, under my definition.

[Ed_209a]

Yeah, I'm done here, you two have fun.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Yeah, I'm done here, you two have fun.

Except that Yerameyahu is right Ed_209a. What you are using for "rules" is only fluff. Do you allow any clothing to just have a Comlink in it by default too? By your definition of the quote you made, this should be the case. Basic Ruthenium is what you are describing (and what iis in the quote you used.) It requires a cost, which is in the book. Clothing does not come with it by default.

Just Saying... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)