Street legends, expensive hard copy- what is it? Options

[CanRay]

No offense to the CGL crew or such, but books like that tend to be PDF Purchases for me. It's a bit easier on the pocket book that way.

'Course, I'm on a budget, so...

[last_of_the_grea...]

Got any more details here? Those of us who contributed to the fiction -- speaking for myself, at least, so if you want you can just PM it to me or something -- are open to more specific feedback, if you've got the time/inclination.

Okay... These are my opinions and everyone is entitled to them, but those who use them owe me royalties. I do not set out to offend or compliment. I merely intend to say how they affected me and provide feedback in a manner that is hopefully informative and useful.

Secondary, by Malik Toms, was decent. It showed the Bogota war thing well, highlighted both the skills and concience of Marcos and had entertaining action. I give it 4 out of 5.

Parlour Tricks, by Malik Toms did the same for Mihoshi Oni and Vladivostok. The only problem I had was that Parlour was spelled wrong (the "u" wasn't in it).

The Killing Game, by Malik Toms, was boring. I had no investment or sympathy for the charactes when the story was done and promptly forgot about it. It gets a 1 out of 5.

The Six Times I Died, by Robert Weiland, was too disjointed. I think using the device of skipping to each kidnapping scene basically neutered it. I did not care about the main character or sympathise when it was finished. I wanted to. I tried to. I just couldn't. 1 out of 5.

Loose Ends, by Russel Zimmerman and Jamed D. Meyers was fun! It nicely showcased the style and snootyness of the main character while showcasing what a cold-hearted badass he was. 5 out of 5.

I Am Legion, by Russel Zimmerman and Jamed D. Meyers, was very good. It did the job of showing the Nadjas and hinting at how they came to be very well while keeping them mysterious and, in the case of the showcased Nadja, human. 4 out of 5.

The Prestige, by Russel Zimmerman and Jamed D. Meyers, was dull. The dialogue and insight simply bored me. Sometimes things can get too intellectual for me. There was no risk to anyone, nothing compelling and there appeared to be no real conflict. 2 out of 5.

The Tales We'll Tell Tomorrow, by Brandie Tarvin, was okay. It did the job it set out to do adequately. When I was done reading it, though, I found that the revelation was just too forced. That brought the score down. 3 out of 5.

[Critias]

Loose Ends, by Russel Zimmerman and Jamed D. Meyers was fun! It nicely showcased the style and snootyness of the main character while showcasing what a cold-hearted badass he was. 5 out of 5.

I Am Legion, by Russel Zimmerman and Jamed D. Meyers, was very good. It did the job of showing the Nadjas and hinting at how they came to be very well while keeping them mysterious and, in the case of the showcased Nadja, human. 4 out of 5.

The Prestige, by Russel Zimmerman and Jamed D. Meyers, was dull. The dialogue and insight simply bored me. Sometimes things can get too intellectual for me. There was no risk to anyone, nothing compelling and there appeared to be no real conflict. 2 out of 5.

Huh. Thanks for the praise on the first couple, but I've got to say yours was the first real negative feedback I've gotten for the third section -- sorry you didn't enjoy it was much as the first two. It was an attempt to show the social/mental aspect of both characters (while Daviar eventually one-ups him, Thorn was able to hold his own in the conversation and "pass muster" so to speak)...More than "conflict" it was supposed to just kind of wrap up the first two sections, and show that Daviar's out to do something, actively, aggressively, and that she's recruiting people like Thorn to get that done. Metaplot advancement type stuff, more than just another fight scene.

Oh well! I'm glad you enjoyed the first two (especially Loose Ends, which was my baby more than the other two), and hopefully you've still gotten some enjoyment out of SL as a whole despite not all the fiction knockin' your socks off.

[last_of_the_grea...]

Nitpickety response: conflict does not need to be physical. I simply meant that nobody seemed to have any opposition of any sort. In any case. I hope that was a little bit constructive, both the good and the bad.

[CanRay]

Nitpickety response: conflict does not need to be physical.

No, but they're a lot more fun to write! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[SincereAgape]

As someone who has been following the SR mythos since the mid-90s and as someone who has read a lot of the paperback fiction novels....this supplement was very enjoyable. The fiction was mostly good, but the statistics provided for Hestaby, Lofwyr, Martin De Vries, Tommy Talon, Nadja Daviar, and the former head prince of Tir Taingire were great.

The bios were amusing and entertaining.

Overall it is a nice PDF to purchase and read through, fun, well organized, and easy to read.

Giving statistics for certain characters such as Hestaby and Lofwyr encourage a GM to put them in the game. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[CanRay]

As for the "If you stat it, they'll kill it", well, go ahead, try. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[bibliophile20]

As for the "If you stat it, they'll kill it", well, go ahead, try. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Yeah, didn't someone try to arrest Lofwyr during a convention game recently? (and got eaten, IIRC)

[CanRay]

Yeah, didn't someone try to arrest Lofwyr during a convention game recently? (and got eaten, IIRC)

Like I'd know.

*Grumbles and mumbles, kicking a can down an empty street, all alone*

[Bull]

Yeah, didn't someone try to arrest Lofwyr during a convention game recently? (and got eaten, IIRC)

Back during the Super Tuesday Election, the Gen Con tournament that year had the PCs playing Secret Service. One team was assigned to Dunklezahn, and at one point decided he was the bad guy and pulled guns on him. The Tourney was an elimination style tournament back then, and this was an instant "weed out" as they used to call it, and resulted in a TPK. (This was before my time at the cons).

Around Year of the Comet, the Gen Con tourney involved the players as FBI agents trying to track down the Maltese Falcon, which and been stolen. they find out Ghostwalker was behind it, and on one team a player pulled out his gun and tried to arrest GW, so the dragon ate him.

(As a note, that became canon as of Artifacts Unbound. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) )

Bull

[Snow_Fox]

Have you checked http://www.shadowrun4.com/products/plot-sourcebooks/ for the official description?

considering the high price (probably the hard copy- the earliest soft cover suppliments had color illustrations and where no where near as expensive ) I wanted to get peoples' opinions rather than the corp marketing say so that would of course declare it to be wonderful.

[Bull]

I'm a little biased, but I do love teh book and was very excited to have it coming out. I only wrote up one character (I'll let you guess which one, and it actually wasn't my idea. When Jason was soliciting proposals for characters to be included, he sent me an email and said "Write him up for this", so I did because, hey, cool (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) )

This is the kind of book I wanted Prime Runners to be back in the day. Backstories behind the characters we saw posting in the books. The details and histories of some of the power players who actually got used on a regular basis. Stats to know just how badass some of these characters were.

Is the book perfect, no. I would have made some different character choices (Personally, I'd have gone with more Jackpointers and Big Names and left out "new" characters like Agent). Going full color and hard cover is an interesting choice, but it makes the book much more expensive. I'm glad it is full color, because some of the artwork really benefits from that, but I can see price being an issue.

I thought it was a very cool book myself, and I'll pretty bummed that it's thus far gotten a somewhat lackluster response from the fanbase, because I'd really like to see more stuff like this. Stuff that helps flesh out the world, flesh out the characters and the stories, rather than just provide yet more crunch (*yawn* oh look, 30 more guns that do exactly the same thing as the last 500 guns). But that's just where my tastes and interests in Shaodwrun lie: the characters and the stories. *shrug*

If you're interested and price is a major concern, consider the PDF. This isn't a book you'll be using at your table on a regular basis, so PDF may be the way to go.

Bull

[Paul]

Stuff that helps flesh out the world, flesh out the characters and the stories, rather than just provide yet more crunch (*yawn* oh look, 30 more guns that do exactly the same thing as the last 500 guns). But that's just where my tastes and interests in Shaodwrun lie: the characters and the stories.

A lot of us tell our own stories. We don't need or want yours. Not because we're rude or spiteful, but rather because we simply have our own to tell. I think it's why none of the NPC books ever do well.

I'm a completionist, so I bought it-and I'll use the parts that are useful to me, but I'd rather see time, energy and effort expended in other areas.

[Wakshaani]

For me, it's always tricky. I'll be the first to tell you that my plots are average at best. I like the interpersonal exchanges and the overall setting more. If you want to have big set pieces, with cars exploding and the world in peril and dragons swooping down through hovercar lanes to try and catch a decker and a runaway clone just before they can slip into the underground... well, I'm not your guy.

But by golly, I loveses me some interpersonal stuff, and if you want me to talk about the decker and his runaway clone as he takes her through town and explains things, well, I'm all over that like tusks on a troll. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

So, the backstories of the Street Legends guys are right up my zone, giving me stories that I can use, people that I can interact with, and that fills in some space in my set dressing. That goes a long, long way. I'm a small-stories guy, which means that Lofwyr and Hestaby and Villers won't see much use in my world, but if I ever need them, they're right there for me now.

(As an aside... anyone know what happened to the assorted Prime Runners? I think at least one got killed in a novel, but I don't know if any of them ever showed up in another product again.)

[CanRay]

A lot of us tell our own stories. We don't need or want yours. Not because we're rude or spiteful, but rather because we simply have our own to tell.

That's the issue with trying to please everyone... NPC books are good for fleshing out metaplot as well, I feel.

[Snow_Fox]

Right of fleshing out the world in which you have your own stories to tell so it's not just you. That's what I loved about the amount of 'fluff' in the older suppliments, just references to items like the Dwin Dee™ jumpsuit and family arcades run by Humais jerks

[Paul]

That's the issue with trying to please everyone... NPC books are good for fleshing out metaplot as well, I feel.

And I'll glean the useful bits from them. I'd personally prefer the NPC's be confined to Missions, in a PDF format. But I get I may not represent the entirety of the fan base.

[3278]

I thought it was a very cool book myself, and I'll pretty bummed that it's thus far gotten a somewhat lackluster response from the fanbase, because I'd really like to see more stuff like this. Stuff that helps flesh out the world, flesh out the characters and the stories, rather than just provide yet more crunch (*yawn* oh look, 30 more guns that do exactly the same thing as the last 500 guns).

30 more guns flesh out the world, too, and if they're the same as the last 500, then someone's doing a shitty job of writing up guns. You can provide another 30 NPCs that are exactly the same as the last 500, too. Inventiveness lies not in subject, but in content.

But that's just where my tastes and interests in Shaodwrun lie: the characters and the stories. *shrug*

Aww, don't be all petulant, little buddy: my tastes lie in characters and stories, too, but that stuff comes naturally to me, so I don't need to pay the developers to do it. This collection of Mary Sues and other NPCs just isn't going to provide any improvement on the characters and stories in my game, is all. That doesn't mean I don't like characters and stories, just that I don't think these particular ones are very good.

Personally, I would prefer shorter dossiers inserted where appropriate into books [and then either gathered together at the end, and/or indexed well, and/or just put up for free on the site] as necessary, whether those be plot books or location books or whatever. This keeps plot information condensed, rather than spread across multiple books, and makes the individual characters relevant in a context, rather than just presented on their own. But I also accept that Shadowrun's going to have a lot of books I don't have a use for: it's a big game, with all kinds of people playing it. Some of them will buy this one; I won't. [If only because the spelling errors are killing me: "power block," seriously?] And that's okay.

[CanRay]

30 more guns flesh out the world, too, and if they're the same as the last 500, then someone's doing a shitty job of writing up guns. You can provide another 30 NPCs that are exactly the same as the last 500, too. Inventiveness lies not in subject, but in content.

Give me the weapons. You'll get stuff that no one has seen before!!!

Or a lot of stuff that people have seen before. *Looks at my copy of Jane's which has 500+ Firearms that do the same job but are greatly different*

[Bull]

I'm not petulant, 32. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It's all good. Like I said, that's just where my interests lie. I'd rather read about 30 characters than 30 guns. I agree tat both can add to the world. I'm just less "tech" and more "plot and story". And while I agree taht you can (and should!) tell your own stories, the stuff going on with the NPCs helps shape what's going on around the PCs.

Plus, when i was a player, I always thought it was cool when we got to interact with these NPCs. You knew you hit the big time if FastJack considered you a peer, or Damien Knight hired you personally to help with a big job. The key, and something my old GM was really good at, was keeping the stories focused on *us* and not the NPCs. When Fastjack showed up, the game didn't turn into "Fastjack & Friends". It stayed the "Bull & Johnny Show", as we called it. Just with "Special Gusst Star Fastjack!". That's an important key. The GM has to be smart enough to not let the NPCs outshine the PCs (Unless there's a damn good reason for it, which happens occasionally too).

Bull

[Bull]

Also, Paul, I totally understand if your tastes and preferences run a different direction. It's the nature of the beast. I know that this is against the Internet Code and all, but I totally accept that not everyone has the same opinioni as me, and taht doesn't make them wrong. Usually (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

So here's a question for you... What kinds of stuff do YOU want to see more of? (Not that I have the ability to make that happen, but it never hurts to find out (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) )

[Paul]

Did Street Legends sell well? I guess that's the ultimate arbitrator of whether it's what the fans want. How does it compare to other books, sales wise?

I've never used a stock NPC. I think my players would either murder them or ignore them. Either way they'd ridicule me. That said I would love to see the NPC's moved online-then anyone who wanted them could make use of them. I like the idea of easily indexed and cross referenced NPC's and plots. I'd love to see more people post their games here-actual play reports and stuff. does any of that occur at the official forums? (I rarely make it over there...I'm not sure I have an account there. Hmm have to check on that.)

[Paul]

So here's a question for you... What kinds of stuff do YOU want to see more of? (Not that I have the ability to make that happen, but it never hurts to find out (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) )

I'd like to see more in depth reviews of locations. Think Seattle Sourcebook but places like Prague, London, Hong Kong, and more. I'd like updated technical equipment, and a la Cybertechnology and Shadowtech I'd like to see how this stuff affects the sixth world. Because to me that's how you get the stories-you create a vast, expansive world, that can be interacted with. Not just a handful of individuals. (One thing that bugs me to no end is that the same NPC commentators appear in every single book. how many frickin' continents do these people work on? Seriously I get Turbo Bunny is someones NPC but after reading a few stories about her I find it incredulous that she has serious input on NeoTokyo, especially given what we know about her.)

In short, I want depth. Take a snap shot of the world, and relay it to me. Don't just give me a profile on Bull, the Ork Decker. Show me why he matters? I can mass produce deckers. why does this one stand out? And since he stands out, why isn't he dead? How does this guy manage to stay alive. That's what I want to read.

I loved books like the original Seattle Sourcebook (Seattle 2072 I like, but seriously we have some paragraphs lifted almost word for word. I get some Ork's robbed an underground restaurant in 40's, but why are we still talking about it 30 years later?); the Sprawl Survival Guide; a lot of the original location sourcebook's. They fleshed the world out, and made it easy to be interactive, and that's what keeps me playing the game.

Now all that said I am still going to buy the books. I support the game, because I love it. I mean it's captured my attention and free time, and inspired me for the last 20 plus years. That's damned good.

[Paul]

Now all that said I am still going to buy the books. I support the game, because I love it. I mean it's captured my attention and free time, and inspired me for the last 20 plus years. That's damned good.

And my wife, so poignantly points out as I typed and posted this: "Yeah not even a woman has managed to do that." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Rasumichin]

You pick a fight with Lofwyr just because "He has stats, so I can kill him".

I be over here. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay over here. In North America. Enjoy your time in Germany.

I don't live that far from where SR lore locates his lair and while I'd normally be completely opposed to dropping thor shots on Essen, given that it's such a nice place full of really likeable and interesting people and all, I'd have to reconsider if Lofwyr set up shop there.

Which brings up the question how his stats actually line up.
He's generally considered to be the most powerful being in the 6th world, so how did they translate that into numbers?
The question isn't if you should stat him out, the question is how this is done.
If the writer just gave him absurdly high attribute scores and called it a day, I'd be disappointed.
If he actually put some thought into which kinds of magical, mundane and socioeconomic defenses this lizard has lined up around him, if the statblock actually makes you think "oh damn, you'd really HAVE to be 10000 years old to get a skill list like that", if your first, second and third thought when reading it is "there's no fucking way I'm even going near that monster", if, in short, the statblock does him justice, that's totally another issue.