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> Cyberwarfare, Iran downs drone with combination of armed forces, air defence forces
The Shuhite
post Dec 5 2011, 01:57 AM
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http://www.aljazeera.com/news/asia/2011/12...1599102532.html

How long before Echo Mirage shows up?
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hobgoblin
post Dec 5 2011, 04:05 AM
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Well the ASIST is missing, but exploits have certainly become weaponized.
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kzt
post Dec 5 2011, 04:27 AM
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That's the third or fourth drone that Iran has "shot down". So far no drone or even wreckage of any of them has been displayed.
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CanRay
post Dec 5 2011, 04:28 AM
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Why does everyone keep pissing kerosine onto the fire that the world seems to be suffering from?

QUOTE (kzt @ Dec 5 2011, 12:27 AM) *
That's the third or fourth drone that Iran has "shot down". So far no drone or even wreckage of any of them has been displayed.
Appearances matter, not facts. They used the weapons, thus they hit something, right?
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hobgoblin
post Dec 5 2011, 04:30 AM
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QUOTE (CanRay @ Dec 5 2011, 05:28 AM) *
Why does everyone keep pissing kerosine onto the fire that the world seems to be suffering from?

The capitalist will sell you the rope you hang him with. Fueling the fire is good for the military-industrial complex...
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CanRay
post Dec 5 2011, 04:33 AM
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Yeah, and the rest of the economy?

*Sighs* The end of the Cold War really screwed things up, didn't it? And kids today, they think a "Cold War" is when armies go out in the snow!

EDIT: Or the code name for the invasion of Canada, which is an oil-producing country. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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hobgoblin
post Dec 5 2011, 04:44 AM
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Well it did make the whole world a lot more spotty, where before one where either allied to USSR or USA (trying to straddle the line would get you nowhere fast).
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CanRay
post Dec 5 2011, 05:03 AM
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Yeah, and Russia trying to reorganize itself didn't help much (How many nukes did they lose? Hell, do they even know how many they HAD to begin with?).

I'm going to bed. I can't believe I liked it better when two superpowers were going to fire nukes at each other, with counter-missile batteries, over my bloody head...
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hobgoblin
post Dec 5 2011, 05:13 AM
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A few known enemies makes for a more predictable world then a bunch of unknowns, after all...

I guess that is why the megas (or at least some of them) wants to keep the status quo as best they can...
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Seriously Mike
post Dec 5 2011, 07:58 AM
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If Iranians really handed American drones to Russians, that's pissing kerosene into TWO fires.
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Brazilian_Shinob...
post Dec 5 2011, 12:06 PM
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If it's true, I imagine the U.S would try to recover the wreckages ASAP to prevent reversal engineering...
Black ops (shadowrunners), anyone?
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MortVent
post Dec 5 2011, 12:11 PM
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Shame if they are not using the same tools some friends of mine talked about when lost drones came up.

Namely things like self destructs, memory wipes by using non-eprom/flash memory (so when it loses power it loses all the programming; but requires a reload before use after storage/repair)
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Brazilian_Shinob...
post Dec 5 2011, 12:29 PM
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QUOTE (MortVent @ Dec 5 2011, 09:11 AM) *
Shame if they are not using the same tools some friends of mine talked about when lost drones came up.

Namely things like self destructs, memory wipes by using non-eprom/flash memory (so when it loses power it loses all the programming; but requires a reload before use after storage/repair)


Flash memory is sure a nice idea, but self-destruct is way unreliable.
It's really hard to predict every possible outcome when your system gets more complex.
I don't know how truthful is this story, but one of my first teachers in science computer told us the story of a new torpedo the U.S.A Navy was testing and they had added a feature that whenever the torpedo did a 180 turn, the torpedo would self-destruct. The reason behind this was to prevent the torpedo turning back and hitting the submarine that had launched it. All nice and dandy, and during tests, one of the torpedoes got stuck in the launch tube. When the submarine turned back to the harbor, the torpedo exploded inside it... (after all, it did turn 180)
Anyway, I'm just saying that you need to be careful what if-else if you are going to put in a drone code to tell it to self-explode.
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MortVent
post Dec 5 2011, 12:33 PM
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most of the ideas on destruct systems were anti-tamper on the black boxes. Try to open one without the right "key" and then it melts down or wipes the data with a capacitor charge
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Brazilian_Shinob...
post Dec 5 2011, 12:38 PM
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Well, it works for the logs and whatever. But then, your enemies would still have the frame and some early ideas of how big/heavy the engines should be, how the avionics are, etc... If it doesn't have C4 attached to it somewhere, then it's not a self-destruct to me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
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MortVent
post Dec 5 2011, 01:03 PM
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QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ Dec 5 2011, 07:38 AM) *
Well, it works for the logs and whatever. But then, your enemies would still have the frame and some early ideas of how big/heavy the engines should be, how the avionics are, etc... If it doesn't have C4 attached to it somewhere, then it's not a self-destruct to me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)


Oh that is simple to do, magnesium framework with anti-tamper triggered thermite charges to ignite it.

Can be evil and use insulation coatings that are toxic when burnt too


But the main thing isn't the airframe it's the software and data that matters. Encryption protocols, command channels, targeting software, etc. As well as the observation data.

Airframes are easy, many RC planes/choppers are large enough and match the performance as is (look into the 1/4 scale ones)
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Darquewing
post Dec 5 2011, 01:08 PM
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In all reality, I don't think we are too worried about the drones. Hell... most of the onboard electronics and communications can be bought from Sparkfun Electronics. Usually it's less the components and more the firmware and encryption keys that the military is worried about handing over. And there are tons of anti-tamper techniques and devices used to cover this area.

In smaller drones, the materials are no more advanced than the plastic used in rapid prototypers/3D printers. As far as avionics/vehicle design for UAVs, crashes probably take care of a lot of that. You could get better specs from a commercial with a Predator in it, than you could from a downed one.
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The Shuhite
post Dec 5 2011, 05:18 PM
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Lest the mods think I am trying to start a political discussion,

The part I found most interesting is the line about it being a combination of the armed forces and the Iranian cyber-warfare unit that downed the drone.

They are claiming to have hacked the drone from the sky!
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CanRay
post Dec 5 2011, 05:22 PM
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I'm in ur drone, haxxoring ur skiez!
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Adarael
post Dec 5 2011, 05:55 PM
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QUOTE (CanRay @ Dec 4 2011, 08:28 PM) *
Appearances matter, not facts. They used the weapons, thus they hit something, right?


Well, appearances DO matter, but that doesn't mean they hit something Western. Last time they made the claim they downed an american spy plane, they had downed one of their own aircraft in a training exercise. But they decided to bang their drums of "Western Aggression" like they always do.

Speaking of appearances mattering, this is also the nation whose Supreme Leader accused allies of the nation's president of sorcery. No, really - this happened in 2011. They have also captured what they claim are "spy pidgeons", arrested an american woman for having "microphones in her teeth", and such other stuff. Now, it is entirely likely that we are sending RQ-170 spy drones over Iranian airspace. I do not doubt that for a moment. But until Iran produces wreckage, I am content to assume the government is up to their usual madness. There are many sane people in Iran, from what I can tell. The propaganda ministers are NOT some of them.

I am reasonably certain that any RQ-170 rigged for actual operations would include (as MortVent says) with self-destruction charges on any sensitive systems. I believe that's SOP for anything classified, including regular fighter aircraft.
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CanRay
post Dec 5 2011, 06:12 PM
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Yeah, but it takes the wrong sabre-rattler on the US side to give another front to the "War On Terror". As if Afghanistan and Iraq at the same time wasn't bad enough.

As for Cyberwarefare taking the drone down, possible... Not likely, but possible. I mean, hell, I remember one person back home who was arrested by the RCMP after he hacked the Pentagon with a Radio Shack computer. (Of course, this was back in the '80s.). All it takes is the right mindset in the right place... Equipment isn't even that hard to come by.
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Fix-it
post Dec 5 2011, 06:25 PM
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It is probably not cyberwar, but just old-fashioned EWAR. throw enough broad-spectrum jamming around and the drone stopped evading long enough for their AAA to get some hits in.
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CanRay
post Dec 5 2011, 06:30 PM
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Microwave Ovens cranked up to 11 and their doors left open? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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Bigity
post Dec 5 2011, 06:50 PM
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The reaction to this is getting crazy out there in media land. OH NOES THEY GOT AN UNMANNED DRONE! Yea, that's exactly why we are developing drones. That way, they don't get a pilot, dead or alive.

On the other stuff, I'm not going to say anything because I'd imagine both our version and theirs is a bunch of smoke and a little bit of truth hiding in it.
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Sengir
post Dec 5 2011, 07:18 PM
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OK, an aircraft got shot down, and allegedly the electronic warfare branch (which mostly consists of radar operators and similarly exotic jobs) was involved. Where's the promised cyberwarfare? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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