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The Shuhite
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/asia/2011/12...1599102532.html

How long before Echo Mirage shows up?
hobgoblin
Well the ASIST is missing, but exploits have certainly become weaponized.
kzt
That's the third or fourth drone that Iran has "shot down". So far no drone or even wreckage of any of them has been displayed.
CanRay
Why does everyone keep pissing kerosine onto the fire that the world seems to be suffering from?

QUOTE (kzt @ Dec 5 2011, 12:27 AM) *
That's the third or fourth drone that Iran has "shot down". So far no drone or even wreckage of any of them has been displayed.
Appearances matter, not facts. They used the weapons, thus they hit something, right?
hobgoblin
QUOTE (CanRay @ Dec 5 2011, 05:28 AM) *
Why does everyone keep pissing kerosine onto the fire that the world seems to be suffering from?

The capitalist will sell you the rope you hang him with. Fueling the fire is good for the military-industrial complex...
CanRay
Yeah, and the rest of the economy?

*Sighs* The end of the Cold War really screwed things up, didn't it? And kids today, they think a "Cold War" is when armies go out in the snow!

EDIT: Or the code name for the invasion of Canada, which is an oil-producing country. nyahnyah.gif
hobgoblin
Well it did make the whole world a lot more spotty, where before one where either allied to USSR or USA (trying to straddle the line would get you nowhere fast).
CanRay
Yeah, and Russia trying to reorganize itself didn't help much (How many nukes did they lose? Hell, do they even know how many they HAD to begin with?).

I'm going to bed. I can't believe I liked it better when two superpowers were going to fire nukes at each other, with counter-missile batteries, over my bloody head...
hobgoblin
A few known enemies makes for a more predictable world then a bunch of unknowns, after all...

I guess that is why the megas (or at least some of them) wants to keep the status quo as best they can...
Seriously Mike
If Iranians really handed American drones to Russians, that's pissing kerosene into TWO fires.
Brazilian_Shinobi
If it's true, I imagine the U.S would try to recover the wreckages ASAP to prevent reversal engineering...
Black ops (shadowrunners), anyone?
MortVent
Shame if they are not using the same tools some friends of mine talked about when lost drones came up.

Namely things like self destructs, memory wipes by using non-eprom/flash memory (so when it loses power it loses all the programming; but requires a reload before use after storage/repair)
Brazilian_Shinobi
QUOTE (MortVent @ Dec 5 2011, 09:11 AM) *
Shame if they are not using the same tools some friends of mine talked about when lost drones came up.

Namely things like self destructs, memory wipes by using non-eprom/flash memory (so when it loses power it loses all the programming; but requires a reload before use after storage/repair)


Flash memory is sure a nice idea, but self-destruct is way unreliable.
It's really hard to predict every possible outcome when your system gets more complex.
I don't know how truthful is this story, but one of my first teachers in science computer told us the story of a new torpedo the U.S.A Navy was testing and they had added a feature that whenever the torpedo did a 180 turn, the torpedo would self-destruct. The reason behind this was to prevent the torpedo turning back and hitting the submarine that had launched it. All nice and dandy, and during tests, one of the torpedoes got stuck in the launch tube. When the submarine turned back to the harbor, the torpedo exploded inside it... (after all, it did turn 180)
Anyway, I'm just saying that you need to be careful what if-else if you are going to put in a drone code to tell it to self-explode.
MortVent
most of the ideas on destruct systems were anti-tamper on the black boxes. Try to open one without the right "key" and then it melts down or wipes the data with a capacitor charge
Brazilian_Shinobi
Well, it works for the logs and whatever. But then, your enemies would still have the frame and some early ideas of how big/heavy the engines should be, how the avionics are, etc... If it doesn't have C4 attached to it somewhere, then it's not a self-destruct to me. grinbig.gif
MortVent
QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ Dec 5 2011, 07:38 AM) *
Well, it works for the logs and whatever. But then, your enemies would still have the frame and some early ideas of how big/heavy the engines should be, how the avionics are, etc... If it doesn't have C4 attached to it somewhere, then it's not a self-destruct to me. grinbig.gif


Oh that is simple to do, magnesium framework with anti-tamper triggered thermite charges to ignite it.

Can be evil and use insulation coatings that are toxic when burnt too


But the main thing isn't the airframe it's the software and data that matters. Encryption protocols, command channels, targeting software, etc. As well as the observation data.

Airframes are easy, many RC planes/choppers are large enough and match the performance as is (look into the 1/4 scale ones)
Darquewing
In all reality, I don't think we are too worried about the drones. Hell... most of the onboard electronics and communications can be bought from Sparkfun Electronics. Usually it's less the components and more the firmware and encryption keys that the military is worried about handing over. And there are tons of anti-tamper techniques and devices used to cover this area.

In smaller drones, the materials are no more advanced than the plastic used in rapid prototypers/3D printers. As far as avionics/vehicle design for UAVs, crashes probably take care of a lot of that. You could get better specs from a commercial with a Predator in it, than you could from a downed one.
The Shuhite
Lest the mods think I am trying to start a political discussion,

The part I found most interesting is the line about it being a combination of the armed forces and the Iranian cyber-warfare unit that downed the drone.

They are claiming to have hacked the drone from the sky!
CanRay
I'm in ur drone, haxxoring ur skiez!
Adarael
QUOTE (CanRay @ Dec 4 2011, 08:28 PM) *
Appearances matter, not facts. They used the weapons, thus they hit something, right?


Well, appearances DO matter, but that doesn't mean they hit something Western. Last time they made the claim they downed an american spy plane, they had downed one of their own aircraft in a training exercise. But they decided to bang their drums of "Western Aggression" like they always do.

Speaking of appearances mattering, this is also the nation whose Supreme Leader accused allies of the nation's president of sorcery. No, really - this happened in 2011. They have also captured what they claim are "spy pidgeons", arrested an american woman for having "microphones in her teeth", and such other stuff. Now, it is entirely likely that we are sending RQ-170 spy drones over Iranian airspace. I do not doubt that for a moment. But until Iran produces wreckage, I am content to assume the government is up to their usual madness. There are many sane people in Iran, from what I can tell. The propaganda ministers are NOT some of them.

I am reasonably certain that any RQ-170 rigged for actual operations would include (as MortVent says) with self-destruction charges on any sensitive systems. I believe that's SOP for anything classified, including regular fighter aircraft.
CanRay
Yeah, but it takes the wrong sabre-rattler on the US side to give another front to the "War On Terror". As if Afghanistan and Iraq at the same time wasn't bad enough.

As for Cyberwarefare taking the drone down, possible... Not likely, but possible. I mean, hell, I remember one person back home who was arrested by the RCMP after he hacked the Pentagon with a Radio Shack computer. (Of course, this was back in the '80s.). All it takes is the right mindset in the right place... Equipment isn't even that hard to come by.
Fix-it
It is probably not cyberwar, but just old-fashioned EWAR. throw enough broad-spectrum jamming around and the drone stopped evading long enough for their AAA to get some hits in.
CanRay
Microwave Ovens cranked up to 11 and their doors left open? nyahnyah.gif
Bigity
The reaction to this is getting crazy out there in media land. OH NOES THEY GOT AN UNMANNED DRONE! Yea, that's exactly why we are developing drones. That way, they don't get a pilot, dead or alive.

On the other stuff, I'm not going to say anything because I'd imagine both our version and theirs is a bunch of smoke and a little bit of truth hiding in it.
Sengir
OK, an aircraft got shot down, and allegedly the electronic warfare branch (which mostly consists of radar operators and similarly exotic jobs) was involved. Where's the promised cyberwarfare? nyahnyah.gif
CanRay
Thank goodness for UAVs. Drones are good for when you don't want to risk a human life. Although I'm sure there's some idjit that's doing a cost-benefit analysis to see which is "Cheaper" to lose. frown.gif
Bigity
The first unlucky Iranian who had to go see what it was had a prothsetic arm.


Ok that's like poor man's cyberware but hey, it's better than a steampunk arm right? The little claw like has a claw-grabby thing.
CanRay
I prefer my Father's Cyberware. A bloody Defribulator built into his chest!
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Bigity @ Dec 5 2011, 07:50 PM) *
The reaction to this is getting crazy out there in media land. OH NOES THEY GOT AN UNMANNED DRONE! Yea, that's exactly why we are developing drones. That way, they don't get a pilot, dead or alive.

Piloted or not, it had the flag on it dhagnabit /s
CanadianWolverine
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Dec 5 2011, 10:17 PM) *
Piloted or not, it had the flag on it dhagnabit /s


Heh, this is how AI's got "rights" biggrin.gif

Edit: "They shot down our drone, sir!"
"Let's go to war!"
"But sir, we haven't lost anything really that isn't easily replaced."
"Hmm, but what if we say the drone is the same as a person, after all, corporations are!"
"..."
"Get PsyOps on it, right now! I want my war, dhagnabit!"
Irion
QUOTE (Bigity @ Dec 5 2011, 07:50 PM) *
The reaction to this is getting crazy out there in media land. OH NOES THEY GOT AN UNMANNED DRONE! Yea, that's exactly why we are developing drones. That way, they don't get a pilot, dead or alive.

On the other stuff, I'm not going to say anything because I'd imagine both our version and theirs is a bunch of smoke and a little bit of truth hiding in it.

Thats the same thing I asked myself as I read the news and some posts here.
It is like omg, they go a defect drone!!!1111
Lets send a seal team after it right away!
Yeah, sure. Lets get some plastic back and just risk a bunch of lifes over it and all the political effort of the last few month. Yeah, sounds like a great idea...


Jekolmy
QUOTE (Sengir @ Dec 5 2011, 01:18 PM) *
OK, an aircraft got shot down, and allegedly the electronic warfare branch (which mostly consists of radar operators and similarly exotic jobs) was involved. Where's the promised cyberwarfare? nyahnyah.gif


Allegedly the drones command link or something similar was hacked and yeah, I'm not completely sure what the cyberwarfare part of it is. Mind you I have issues with figuring out what you can do with the normal rigging/cybwewarfare rules so that isn't such a terrible admission.
CanRay
QUOTE (Irion @ Dec 6 2011, 07:14 AM) *
Yeah, sure. Lets get some plastic back and just risk a bunch of lifes over it and all the political effort of the last few month. Yeah, sounds like a great idea...
Especially when they wouldn't OK a rescue op for a Pilot during the first Gulf War. "We're not going to risk lives on what might be a bunch of bones. We don't need to bring everyone home." "... You haven't read the manual on the Military, have you?"
Manunancy
QUOTE (Bigity @ Dec 5 2011, 07:50 PM) *
The reaction to this is getting crazy out there in media land. OH NOES THEY GOT AN UNMANNED DRONE! Yea, that's exactly why we are developing drones. That way, they don't get a pilot, dead or alive.


That sort of reactions also happily ignore the fact that the drone was in iranian airspace in the first place - which means that under current international law they had every right to shoot it down.
Irion
If they even shot it down, and it did not just drop out of the sky, like Nato claims..
MortVent
QUOTE (Manunancy @ Dec 8 2011, 01:17 AM) *
That sort of reactions also happily ignore the fact that the drone was in iranian airspace in the first place - which means that under current international law they had every right to shoot it down.


Was it in their airspace or were their people in the wrong area and covering their hoops?

Got to remember many borders are iffy, unlike the great wall. Most don't have a physical barrier that clearly shows it (and at times they are under dispute... )

Bigity
QUOTE (Manunancy @ Dec 8 2011, 12:17 AM) *
That sort of reactions also happily ignore the fact that the drone was in iranian airspace in the first place - which means that under current international law they had every right to shoot it down.


Our imagery/rivet joint planes routinely enter other sovreign nation's air space.

Oh, and pilots get lost, and drones get flown off course, or controllers lose control of them and they kind keep flying whichever direction they happened to be going.

Borders aren't all straight lines, crossing happens, accidently and intentionally.
Irion
Actually it is kind of funny.
I have not heard a word from Iran in the last days. Just checked the news right now.

Honestly, sometime I think international politics is running after a shiny object,until another shiny object appears..
CanRay
QUOTE (Irion @ Dec 8 2011, 12:32 PM) *
Honestly, sometime I think international politics is running after a shiny object,until another shiny object appears..
Considering most people who are in politics... This probably isn't that far off.
kzt
Might be accurate, iranians are showing pictures.
MortVent
QUOTE (kzt @ Dec 8 2011, 02:21 PM) *
Might be accurate, iranians are showing pictures.


The video is questionable, especially with their habit of faking props (certain russian missiles out of welded oil cans come to mind)
CanRay
Wasn't there a "US Missile Strike" that was actually 7.62mm rounds shot into a wall? Or was that in Iraq?
Erik Baird
Dunno, but I remember seeing a photo of an Iraqi woman holding an unfired 5.56 cartridge that she claimed was "fired" at her.
CanRay
QUOTE (Erik Baird @ Dec 8 2011, 10:30 PM) *
Dunno, but I remember seeing a photo of an Iraqi woman holding an unfired 5.56 cartridge that she claimed was "fired" at her.
Yeah, showed that to my Peacenik Earth Child of a Mother and she laughed her ass off. IIRC, it was a 7.62mm Soviet round as well, something not used by NATO. Well, typically. nyahnyah.gif
Darquewing
From what I have read and heard it was an RQ-170. It was, however, a CIA operation, not a military op. I don't think the military knew what was going on at first until the spooks fessed up.


CanRay
What the hell did they do to make the Spooks even admit they even exist?
MortVent
QUOTE (CanRay @ Dec 9 2011, 08:44 AM) *
What the hell did they do to make the Spooks even admit they even exist?



Never underestimate the effect of a note informing someone there is a battleship in the bay that can put a volkswagon in you lap.. accidently
Sengir
QUOTE (MortVent @ Dec 8 2011, 08:44 PM) *
The video is questionable, especially with their habit of faking props (certain russian missiles out of welded oil cans come to mind)

The drone indeed looks suspiciously clean...then again, stranger things have happened. And even if they just got the drone in bits and pieces, those bits and pieces would be a goldmine for their materials science folks.
CanRay
QUOTE (MortVent @ Dec 9 2011, 09:47 AM) *
Never underestimate the effect of a note informing someone there is a battleship in the bay that can put a volkswagon in you lap.. accidently
Give me enough time and some Northern Rednecks, and you won't even need the battleship or water to do that.

Of course, it'd be a literal VW Bug.
CanadianWolverine
QUOTE (Sengir @ Dec 9 2011, 08:04 AM) *
The drone indeed looks suspiciously clean...then again, stranger things have happened. And even if they just got the drone in bits and pieces, those bits and pieces would be a goldmine for their materials science folks.


Heh, the way some people talk about it, you would think they had recovered a ET UFO to reverse engineer. biggrin.gif
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