Are there rules for "Dragons Breath" shotgun rounds? Options

[Daylen]

AFAIK, we're talking about deciding what the rules should require. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The Wikipedia thing is clearly different (15m at best, mostly 'sparks', very narrow, too weak to cycle the automatic, and keep flaring for 3-5 seconds), so we can decide what to do with it. None of that sounds like the SR ones, or even useful (and no word on damage/effectiveness even within that 15m max). No mention, though, of gun damage.

The numbers I've seen batted around, on the other hand, are equal to or better than the real flamers in Arsenal. Personally, I'd like something in between: categorically worse than flamers, but better than this lame cosmetic 'flare' on Wikipedia.

dragons breath is not much of a flare, it is a blast of incindiary shrapnel.

[Yerameyahu]

That's what I said. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) And again, we don't have info on the effect.

[Paul]

What the hell? Sorry folks. I have no idea what happened there.

[Daylen]

shotgun damage with a chance to set things on fire.

[Christian Lafay]

shotgun damage with a chance to set things on fire.

Agreed. Maybe an extra bump from the heat on the damage but then just see what's flammable on the target(s).

[CanRay]

Agreed. Maybe an extra bump from the heat on the damage but then just see what's flammable on the target(s).

Apparently, Metahumans are flammable.

"That troll is Flaming!" "Who cares about his sexuality?" "No, I mean he's on fire." "So he's good at sports. Big deal." "You are trying to break my head, aren't you?" "No, I can't think over the screaming of the flammable troll over there."

[Yerameyahu]

And no 1/2 Impact? Because the Blazer in Arsenal is already 6P, taser range. 7P with short range (=taser), but no Elemental (=no 1/2 Impact) does seem fair-ish. That, and the weaker 'ignite' effect, instead of the 'napalm' effect. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

In that case, normal choke rules? Or fixed spread?

[Christian Lafay]

Apparently, Metahumans are flammable.

"That troll is Flaming!" "Who cares about his sexuality?" "No, I mean he's on fire." "So he's good at sports. Big deal." "You are trying to break my head, aren't you?" "No, I can't think over the screaming of the flammable troll over there."

At least physads can't catch him now.

[CanRay]

At least physads can't catch him now.

Yeah, because that's what's going on through his head right now. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

"OH GHOST IT HURTS AND BURNS AND THE SUFFERING AND... Do I smell roast ham?"

[Yerameyahu]

No, because ninjas can't get you if you're on fire. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[CanRay]

No, because ninjas can't get you if you're on fire. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Oh, I'm well aware. I'm not sure that's the biggest concern on his mind after being set on fire by a shotty.

Of course, it feels like a shotty day, as one of my nightmares put it when I pulled a SPAS-12 out of the trunk of a custom '49 Mercury Eight.

I needed to bring more gun in the end.

[3278]

This is also because they *shouldn't* be better than the real flamethrowers in Arsenal (small 'clip', 6P or 8P, Forbidden, etc.; the Blazer only gets Taser ranges itself!). Oh well. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

The balance in SR3 [other than shorter taser ranges (and a Blazer with flamethrower ranges)] was that the rounds had a one-in-six chance of rendering the weapon unusable until repaired. I didn't find them very useful for this reason, but for your one-shot last-ditch emergency flamethrower needs, I can't think of a better choice, I guess.

Should these have an inherent Spread effect? Or should they more closely follow the Arsenal rules?

In SR3, they followed the standard shotgun choke and spread rules. [And were resisted with half impact armor, as you'd expect.]

[Christian Lafay]

Yeah, because that's what's going on through his head right now. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

"OH GHOST IT HURTS AND BURNS AND THE SUFFERING AND... Do I smell roast ham?"

I just imagine the tank who lights himself on fire pre-combat like a DnD character I had who was a grapple master. Or a bit like this. You know, like the troll who took a high powered laser to the face and commented on how sunny it was outside.

[Yerameyahu]

Thanks for the lookup. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) So it sounds like SR3 fell on the side of 'flame shells' instead of the lamer, more realistic 'spark shells', as we've been framing the distinction. In reintroducing them to SR4, we can try to be faithful to SR3, or… not. That 1-in-6 does seem prohibitive, to the point of 'I won't bother'.

Assuming we aren't changing anything else (like the Blazer), I still think the shotgun shells should be for-real flame (not sparks), but that they should be significantly shorter and weaker than any real flamer (the Blazer).

If it's flame, it really needs to be consistent with their rules (1/2 Impact), but it can be weaker in other ways. 5P (vs. Blazer's 6P) might possibly be too weak to bother with, but I feel like 7P wouldn't be fair.

Taking away the napalm effect seems like a good sacrifice, and lets real flamers have a truly unique, signature effect; the shells can still ignite things, as we mentioned above, but they lack the 'ignite *everything* regardless' bit.

I'm not sure allowing normal spread/choke rules makes sense if we're talking about actual flame, not sparks/shards. So I feel like a fixed spread effect best models the 'cone burst' we expect, without unnaturally giving the shooter control over what's essentially an 'uncontrolled' type of attack. Numbers can be tweaked, but I'd lazily just take the max wide spread from the shotgun rules, to err on the side of smaller. (I probably wouldn't use the DV reduction aspect, though.)

I feel like enough data's in, so… that's my take. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) *shrug* If someone wants a gamble factor (beyond the normal weapon Glitch rules), they can always add that. Hopefully less than 1/6, unless you're being extra reckless (auto-fire?).

[Mäx]

Assuming we aren't changing anything else (like the Blazer), I still think the shotgun shells should be for-real flame (not sparks), but that they should be significantly shorter and weaker than any real flamer (the Blazer).

I would just go with this:
Dragonsbreath rounds
These shells use low-explosive propellant charges to expel burning powdered zirconium out of the barrel, basically turning the shotgun into flamethrower.
When using these shells use tazer ranges and the gun can only fired in SS mode.
6P -half I 12R 140

Yeah it does same damage as blazer, but that thing is truly a real flame-thrower and it does still get the benefits of the flame-thrower rules, while the shells dont.

[Yerameyahu]

But… isn't that science describing the RL crappy spark-not-flame rounds? I don't see how they'd be 6P 1/2 Impact, in that case, and taser ranges are maybe even too much. I don't think your suggestion is unworkable, but it's just not exactly what I'm seeing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It's close enough not to worry about it, though, as long as no one gets cute with the SS strict requirement.

So… would you guys buy and use that? Only on Fire-Weakness critters? (Does it work on ITNW?) Does it glare up thermo vision?

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

I would just go with this:
Dragonsbreath rounds
These shells use low-explosive propellant charges to expel burning powdered zirconium out of the barrel, basically turning the shotgun into flamethrower.
When using these shells use tazer ranges and the gun can only fired in SS mode.
6P -half I 12R 140

Yeah it does same damage as blazer, but that thing is truly a real flame-thrower and it does still get the benefits of the flame-thrower rules, while the shells dont.

That looks a lot like my houserules that i posted earlier in this thread ^^

This is my (houseruled) version of it:

Dragon's Breath Rounds (Shotgun only)
DV: -1 (fire)
AP: -1/2 (impact)
Cost: 150nY / 10 rounds
Availability: 14R
Dragon's Breath Rounds use Taser Ranges.
Dragon's Breath Rounds can be used to strike multiple targets, as long as each target is standing within three meters of each other target. Firing DBR from shotguns in SA/BF/FA mode automatically jams the Weapon and incurs a Gremlins 4 penalty.

[Yerameyahu]

And I still think 3m is a big plume.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

And I still think 3m is a big plume.

Freakin' Massive, if you ask me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

Well, dropping it to 2m would fit the wikipedia description.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well, dropping it to 2m would fit the wikipedia description.

Still too big in my opinion. *shrug*

[Yerameyahu]

If you make it 1m, that's in line with the shotgun rules. I know we're just making fine adjustments here, but that's the task we're on. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I'm pretty okay with the DV between 5-6, if again we're talking fire, not sparks. Taser range almost seems too long, but the alternative is requiring math during play, or just saying 'taser ranges, X meters hard max'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

Or Taser Ranges without Extreme Ranges, that would equal 15m - like wikipedia states. As for the 2m radius, the flames burn for 2-3 seconds, so you could pivot around

[Yerameyahu]

Yeah, drop the Extreme was what I was thinking. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

That seems fair, if you refer to it as a 'sweeping fire' kind of action. Given you're using SS, you have the time, heh. Might be a DP penalty, though, because it's not really Spread, it's Walking Fire. I was thinking just use the 1m Spread for simplicity, and then you get the Dodge penalty if you like (and no sweeping option). I prefer it to be a single, brief gout of flame.

[Mäx]

That looks a lot like my houserules that i posted earlier in this thread ^^

Possibly, but thats been on my extra gear file for last 3 months.
Also mine doesn't give the shells the hitting multiple targets benefit.