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Stormdrake
Was looking to see if there were any rules or write ups for the shotgun ammo "Dragons Breath"? It is not the same as tracer rounds as they don’t go very far but are incendiary in nature as they are designed to catch things on fire. if this has been done could someone give me the book and page?
Thank you
Brazilian_Shinobi
I think there's something in War! IIRC.
Yerameyahu
SR3 had something more fittingly 'Dragon's Breath', IIRC: short range flamethrower shells. I can see a use for plain incendiary rounds, of course… aren't those illegal? wink.gif
Paul
If they're in War! I couldn't find them. I know SR3 had them in the Cannon Companion.
Stormdrake
I remember them from 3rd as I used them on insect spirits in Chicago. I don't think they made it into 4th as I have not been able to find them in the main book, Arsenal, or War.
Wounded Ronin
Lol, what a gimmick. I know a place that sells them in Vegas. The Cannon Companion used to have 3rd ed rules for them.
Warlordtheft
"WARNING: Do not use in automatic or Semi-auto shotguns."

--Think about it-- grinbig.gif

But stat wise, make it a flame-thrower shot that lasts one combat round. My guess the cost would be about 100 Nuyen per 10.
MortVent
never underestimate the psychological impact of the round, or use in close quarters.

Incendiary rounds have their place for damage runs, clearing out gas, used to kill lots of minor threats (devil rats!), etc

Like all toys you can figure out uses for it. Much like the multi-projectile 40mm grenades for the m203... they can be a damn sigh more useful than most think
CanRay
Also handy against Paracritters vulnerable to fire. Spirits as well. Who says you can't use firearms against Spirits? nyahnyah.gif
KarmaInferno
QUOTE (MortVent @ Dec 14 2011, 05:54 PM) *
never underestimate the psychological impact of the round, or use in close quarters.

Incendiary rounds have their place for damage runs, clearing out gas, used to kill lots of minor threats (devil rats!), etc

That's what the flamethrower installed in your mouth is for, innit?




-k
scarius
One of my players asked for these, so I just used the rules for flare rounds and just tweaked them slightly.

+1DV +0AP - flammable stuff lights on fire, roll fire resistance for armour ect, +3 for intimidate checks
hobgoblin
flamethrower damage, short range only, shotgun spread perhaps?

I am surprised that it has not shown up in the books so far...
MortVent
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Dec 14 2011, 11:21 PM) *
That's what the flamethrower installed in your mouth is for, innit?




-k


Only my drake adept has that... and she is too sweet to really use it much
Sengir
QUOTE (Warlordtheft @ Dec 14 2011, 11:10 PM) *
"WARNING: Do not use in automatic or Semi-auto shotguns."

Very valid point. Given that most shotguns in SR are (semi-) auto, you will most likely need to mod the weapon with Firing Mode Change. Yep, the rules explicitly mention adding SS mode and I always wondered why anyone would do that...
Yerameyahu
That's just a warning, not a rule. smile.gif
Warlordtheft
QUOTE (MortVent @ Dec 15 2011, 06:29 AM) *
Only my drake adept has that... and she is too sweet to really use it much

Not even for marshmellows? lick.gif
Stormdrake
Found the rules in 3rd edition and the rounds are called Big "D's" after the dead president. The rules say increase the damage code by two and add the fire elemental effect. Damage is resisted by half impact but range is that of a taser. All around rather nasty for close combat.
bibliophile20
QUOTE (Warlordtheft @ Dec 15 2011, 09:35 AM) *
Not even for marshmellows? lick.gif


Not worth the heartburn, unless you can get real chocolate bars and graham crackers to go with... biggrin.gif
CanRay
QUOTE (MortVent @ Dec 15 2011, 07:29 AM) *
Only my drake adept has that... and she is too sweet to really use it much
JiffyPop? It's recommended by Dunkie!
NiL_FisK_Urd
This is my (houseruled) version of it:

Dragon's Breath Rounds (Shotgun only)
DV: -1 (fire)
AP: -1/2 (impact)
Cost: 150nY / 10 rounds
Availability: 14R
Dragon's Breath Rounds use Taser Ranges.
Dragon's Breath Rounds can be used to strike multiple targets, as long as each target is standing within three meters of each other target. Firing DBR from shotguns in SA/BF/FA mode automatically jams the Weapon and incurs a Gremlins 4 penalty.

Edit: added availability and some clarifications
Yerameyahu
3 *meters* seems like a lot for a shotgun shell 'flamethrower'.

Is it supposed to be SA/etc. shotguns, or SA/etc. *mode*?

Do those prices seem low to anyone else? They're not complex, but you'd think they'd just be rare-ish; a specialty item.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Dec 15 2011, 09:55 AM) *
Do those prices seem low to anyone else? They're not complex, but you'd think they'd just be rare-ish; a specialty item.


Not overly. Just because they are specialty items does not mean that they have to cost a bundle. I would imagine availability would be high (though there is no listed availability in the previous posts that I saw), but the cost seemed okay to me.
NiL_FisK_Urd
oh, i forgot the availability - i would place it at 14R, they are not common.
It is supposed to be SA/etc. mode
Those prices are actually quite high, wikipedia states 5$/shell. Also, german wikipedia states the flame reaches a diameter of 2m, so i thought by 2070 it would get a bit better.
Sengir
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Dec 15 2011, 03:34 PM) *
That's just a warning, not a rule. smile.gif

Nothing in this thread is technically RAW...
Yerameyahu
That could be. It's just that a 3m diameter is actually 4 times the size of 2m (SR4A shotguns get 1m), and combined with the 20m range… where can you use this without torching All The Things? smile.gif I understand that real flamethrowers have truly huge range, but I always envisioned the shell version as 'micro' rather than just 'junior'. This is also because they *shouldn't* be better than the real flamethrowers in Arsenal (small 'clip', 6P or 8P, Forbidden, etc.; the Blazer only gets Taser ranges itself!). Oh well. biggrin.gif

Should these have an inherent Spread effect? Or should they more closely follow the Arsenal rules?

Yes, Sengir, but warnings are especially ignorable. wink.gif
CanRay
Apparently they're used IRL for firebreaks. And killing Black Court Vampires, if The Dresden Files is to be believed.
NiL_FisK_Urd
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Dec 15 2011, 07:02 PM) *
That could be. It's just that a 3m diameter is actually 4 times the size of 2m (SR4A shotguns get 1m), and combined with the 20m range… where can you use this without torching All The Things? smile.gif I understand that real flamethrowers have truly huge range, but I always envisioned the shell version as 'micro' rather than just 'junior'. This is also because they *shouldn't* be better than the real flamethrowers in Arsenal (small 'clip', 6P or 8P, Forbidden, etc.; the Blazer only gets Taser ranges itself!). Oh well. biggrin.gif

Should these have an inherent Spread effect? Or should they more closely follow the Arsenal rules?

Yes, Sengir, but warnings are especially ignorable. wink.gif


hmm ... dv -1 would be better, i think. Well, they cannot do some of the things the flamethrowers can: they do not set everything on fire automatically and they cannot be used for suppressing fire
Sengir
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Dec 15 2011, 07:02 PM) *
Yes, Sengir, but warnings are especially ignorable. wink.gif

Not if the warning is due to an inherent restriction of this ammunition: The flame jet lasts longer than a reload cycle, thus if the round generates enough gas pressure an automatic weapon would eject the cartridge while it's still burning. If the pressure is not sufficient to move the bolt, you need to reload manually anyway.
Yerameyahu
Which is exactly why I noted that it was a warning and *not* an inherent restriction. Duh.

Personally, I'm fine with requiring SS (the real flamethrowers are SS as well, though with special FA-like mode). I just thought it was funny the way it said 'WARNING'. smile.gif

Overall, I just think that a little shotgun shell version needs to be in *every* way weaker than the real Arsenal flamethrowers. Lower DV, less range, no napalm effect (as NiL rightly noted), smaller spread, etc.
bibliophile20
QUOTE (CanRay @ Dec 15 2011, 01:06 PM) *
Apparently they're used IRL for firebreaks. And killing Black Court Vampires, if The Dresden Files is to be believed.


And the Fireball version is used to spook ancient Card-Carrying Villains with supernaturally evil pocket change, as well as guide in the cavalry.
Warlordtheft
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Dec 15 2011, 01:32 PM) *
Which is exactly why I noted that it was a warning and *not* an inherent restriction. Duh.

Personally, I'm fine with requiring SS (the real flamethrowers are SS as well, though with special FA-like mode). I just thought it was funny the way it said 'WARNING'. smile.gif

Overall, I just think that a little shotgun shell version needs to be in *every* way weaker than the real Arsenal flamethrowers. Lower DV, less range, no napalm effect (as NiL rightly noted), smaller spread, etc.


Also, no matter what, putting that amount of heat through the barrel will screw it up. I just had the image of NEWB runner using one of these rounds in a full-auto shotgun ejecting still flaming shells all over the place, hitting his teamates and himself.

Curious, has anyone tried these rounds in RL, and do they have any recoil?
NiL_FisK_Urd
haha, that mental image of flying, burning casings all over the place is surely amusing XD
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Dec 15 2011, 07:32 PM) *
Personally, I'm fine with requiring SS (the real flamethrowers are SS as well, though with special FA-like mode). I just thought it was funny the way it said 'WARNING'. smile.gif

Meh, i suspect all shotguns in SR have the option to be "pumped" to clear a specialist casing from the chamber once fired. Consider such real life Shotguns as the Benelli M3 or Franchi SPAS-12 that can both fire SA or SS depending on the ammo used. With the level of electronics in SR weapons, it may even be that shotguns can be fired SA even with special ammo. All it would take was some kind of linear helper motor that would force the cycle if the system notices that there was not enough recoil. There is even a precedent for such a system in the ammo skip system (Arsenal, p150), tho it requires a smartgun (likely for the ability to read the kind of ammo in the chamber and cycle it out if it is not the user selected kind). Btw, ammo skin makes smartgun revolvers scarily versatile.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Warlordtheft @ Dec 15 2011, 08:06 PM) *
Also, no matter what, putting that amount of heat through the barrel will screw it up. I just had the image of NEWB runner using one of these rounds in a full-auto shotgun ejecting still flaming shells all over the place, hitting his teamates and himself.

Curious, has anyone tried these rounds in RL, and do they have any recoil?

Professional Russian, at your service: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RP4FjODPDFA
Stahlseele
QUOTE (Sengir @ Dec 15 2011, 07:02 PM) *
Nothing in this thread is technically RAW...

After being hit by those, NOTHING is RAW anymore . .
Christian Lafay
QUOTE (CanRay @ Dec 15 2011, 06:06 PM) *
Apparently they're used IRL for firebreaks. And killing Black Court Vampires, if The Dresden Files is to be believed.

Great. Now my runner will be carrying around a golf bag everywhere he goes.
CanRay
QUOTE (Christian Lafay @ Dec 15 2011, 04:09 PM) *
Great. Now my runner will be carrying around a golf bag everywhere he goes.
And have a magic sword or two in a giant popcorn tin that's also used as an umbrella stand?
Stormdrake
Considering he set fire to the bale of hay six feet away from the target I would say the spread is pretty good. This is very evil and I am so going to use it in my game, lol.
Sengir
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Dec 15 2011, 07:32 PM) *
Which is exactly why I noted that it was a warning and *not* an inherent restriction. Duh.

Personally, I'm fine with requiring SS (the real flamethrowers are SS as well, though with special FA-like mode). I just thought it was funny the way it said 'WARNING'. smile.gif

Ah sorry, I though you thought ( wobble.gif) this was just one of those "don't do this because if Mars and Venus align in the 7th house..." warnings

@hogoblin:
QUOTE
Meh, i suspect all shotguns in SR have the option to be "pumped" to clear a specialist casing from the chamber once fired. Consider such real life Shotguns as the Benelli M3 or Franchi SPAS-12 that can both fire SA or SS depending on the ammo used.

Well, there is also the Benelli M1, which is essentially the same weapon without the pumping. And Arsenal has a mod for converting guns to SS (small Firing Selection Change 400 ¥/4R), that wouldn't really make sense if it came as default wink.gif

QUOTE
Btw, ammo skin makes smartgun revolvers scarily versatile.

I love the Enfield Merlin...only downside is that revolver silencers have Availability 16F, I'm not taking Restricted Gear just to mount a bloody silencer.
Daylen
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Dec 14 2011, 09:18 PM) *
Lol, what a gimmick. I know a place that sells them in Vegas. The Cannon Companion used to have 3rd ed rules for them.

oh, but it is a fun and visually appealing gimick when employed at night!
Yerameyahu
So, anyway. Some people are saying 'barrel damage', but others are saying 'real life thing'. Um?
Daylen
QUOTE (Warlordtheft @ Dec 15 2011, 07:06 PM) *
Also, no matter what, putting that amount of heat through the barrel will screw it up. I just had the image of NEWB runner using one of these rounds in a full-auto shotgun ejecting still flaming shells all over the place, hitting his teamates and himself.

Curious, has anyone tried these rounds in RL, and do they have any recoil?


barrels are made to get stupid hot. Unless RAW requires some sort of damage to the weapon, none is needed. However, I do seem to remember seeing a warning label advising against using such shells in an autoloader.
Yerameyahu
AFAIK, we're talking about deciding what the rules should require. smile.gif

The Wikipedia thing is clearly different (15m at best, mostly 'sparks', very narrow, too weak to cycle the automatic, and keep flaring for 3-5 seconds), so we can decide what to do with it. None of that sounds like the SR ones, or even useful (and no word on damage/effectiveness even within that 15m max). No mention, though, of gun damage.

The numbers I've seen batted around, on the other hand, are equal to or better than the real flamers in Arsenal. Personally, I'd like something in between: categorically worse than flamers, but better than this lame cosmetic 'flare' on Wikipedia.
hobgoblin
The Wikipedia description reads more like the flare round for shotguns in Arsenal.
KarmaInferno
That "Professional Russian" link video shows impact splash setting nearby objects a good couple of meters away on fire.

So possibly have a minor area effect at the impact point?





-k
Paul
I've never fired those kind of rounds, but I am a fan of FPS Russia. I'd say just like that video some secondary elemental effects could be possible. I've fired plenty of hotloaded buckshot, and double aught-and I've seen plenty of funny things happen on the range. So why not? worst that happens is you try it, and hate the effect it has at the table.
Paul
So good I said it twice.
Paul
No seriously, it was good. So good I said it three times.
Paul
So...how about them Red Sox's? Still red...
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Epic Post Fail, Paul... smile.gif
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