Do Spells follow your Consciousness or your Body?, Need some rules help... Options

[Jonny Reload]

Let's say your casting a Detection Spell and Sustain it, then you decide to enter the Matrix... Do the spell effects focus on your mental consciousness or your physical body? (Ex. Your in a Drone, does the Detection Spell work around the Drone or where ever you parked your Unconscious Body?)

As a follow up question, if you Astral Project, does the spell work around your Projection or your Unconscious Body?

[cleggster]

As to the first part no. For one thing magic does not work with technology very well. They just don't get along very well. But the thing to keep in mind is with the matrix and drones is your consciousness is not actually going anywhere. The signals from simsense are sent to your brain. You mind is not still right there.

As for the second...hmmm. A detection spell CAST in astral space will only work in astral space in 4th ed. But what if you cast it first and maintained it? I don't know. I kinda like the idea though. Have to put some thought into it. Be worth looking into.

[Yerameyahu]

You don't have a consciousness, as far as the game cares. What you do have is an astral form, while projecting (and perceiving, but then your astral form and your physical body are together). There's some munchkin debate about Mana/Physical spells in this situation, but spells basically go with your astral form if they're relevant, and can't gain any bonus powers or effects from tricky 'clever' crap.

[Jonny Reload]

So far it just sounds like both of you are saying "There is no clear answer, GM's decision" unless someone can quote me a rule page on either of these subjects.

[Midas]

As to magic in the matrix, I agree with the cleggster, no. Don't have me BBB to hand, but I can extrapolate SR magic canon regarding magic being able to work through optical but not electronic lenses as a strong arguement against magic in the matrix. Nowhere in the books has an example of successful use of magic in the matrix been sited, so I would say the onus of proof is on those who would want to argue it would work.

As to your follow-up question, I would say the spell would follow the astrally projecting mage if the spell had been cast on the astral. However, as per spells cast on the astral, it would only detect stuff with an astral presence (astrally active and dual-natured entities, not mundanes or astrally inactive objects). If the spell were cast on the physical plane, I guess it would stay with the meat-body. However, as you say, this is a GM call without a rules reference for back-up.

[Irion]

It is quite a mess. If all spells effecting only living beeings and no dead matter (like almost all the health spells) would be mana spells, you could easy say mana spells go with you and physical spells stay with your body. I would even go further and say, that to cast mana spells you need to see the "aura" and target the "aura" and not just the body. (So you have to be astrally percieving in any way)

[Lansdren]

No magic in the matrix, your not actually leaving your body anyway regardless of where you might "think" your mind is it is in fact still in your brain. Although if you had a detection spell running you could still pick up on the warnings from the spell when in VR with a hefty modifier for noticing. But the spell would always be around your meat.

[Yerameyahu]

I think I gave a clear answer, Jonny, just not an absolute one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The rules are pretty imperfect in many places, and the P/M codes is one of those. Again, M spells generally stay on 'you' (astral form), P spells almost certainly don't. The problem is the 'generally'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[bibliophile20]

well, I'll note that cyberspace isn't a location; it's a consensual hallucination, rendered in code and delivered to your brain; your consciousness never actually gets uploaded and "leaves" your skull (unless you're a technomancer on a Resonance Realm search, but that's a special case), it's fed information from the computers that make up the Matrix, or from the sensors and systems that comprise the drone feed, but, in all cases (at least that an Awakened character would be dealing with), "you", the consciousness that is the person, never leaves the body. Thus, a drone sensor feed is like any other connection that you haven't paid Essence for (and, no, a datajack doesn't count; the 'jack is part of you, but the remote cameras are not), meaning that those rules (SR4A, p. 183, Step 3, Choose The Targets), apply for casting spells via them--i.e. you can't, unless you've paid Essence to make it "part" of you.

[Bodak]

Let's say your (sic) casting a Detection Spell and Sustain it, then you decide to enter the Matrix... Do the spell effects focus on your mental consciousness or your physical body?

That depends on whether the spell is Physical or Mana, as others have said: SR4a p203: Mana spells affect [...] the target in a magical and spiritual manner [...] Physical spells directly target the body. SM p159: Mana spells only affect the mind or spirit of a target [...] Physical spells affect the material form of a target.

Your (sic) in a Drone, does the Detection Spell work around the Drone or where ever you parked your Unconscious Body?

If the rigger has crawled inside a drone and then jacked into the Matrix, the rigger is in a drone and the unconscious body is in that same drone. The question is moot.

If you were referring to SR4a p245: You “jump into” a drone via full VR. [...] When jumped in, the rigger essentially “becomes” the drone, perceiving through its sensors and operating it as if it were his own body. then just replace the word "essentially" with "doesn't really". SR4a p217: Virtual Reality: A state where outside stimuli are ignored and the user is only receiving impressions from the Matrix. Requires a direct neural interface. The rigger's location has not changed when "jumped in" to a drone. The location of a sustained area-of-effect spell can be moved along with a drone though, sure. If a rigger casts a S AoE spell at the location of his drone, then "jumps in" to his drone, he can get the drone to move using VR. He can also spend complex actions to move the spell (no range or speed limit): SR4a p184: If an area-effect spell is sustained, the affected area may be moved with a Complex Action, as long as it remains within line of sight. but the rigger cannot use the drone's sensors via VR for LoS SR4a p183: any technological visual aids that substitute themselves for the charac-ter’s own visual senses—cameras, electronic binoculars, Matrix feeds, etc.—cannot be used. [...] sighting through an electronic vision-enhancing device or other technological rendering of the target does not establish the necessary link. So while the spell can be moved wherever the drone moves, if the rigger is in VR and the rigger is the spellcaster, then moving the spell is subject to a visual perception test with a base -8 penalty: SR4a p183: For each sustained spell the magician maintains, she suffers a –2 dice penalty on all other tests. SR4a p220: In VR, your physical perceptions are overridden by the Matrix’s sensory information. Rather than experiencing the real world around your meat body, you experience the electronic simulation of the Matrix as your persona’s icon. [...] With great difficulty, you can still perceive through your meat senses or move your physical body while in VR. SR4a p226: Perceiving the VR Matrix in its full glory overwhelms the physical senses. Any action taken in the physical world while in VR suffers a –6 dice pool penalty.

If your question was more "can sustaining spells help me while I'm in VR" the answer would be yes. Just run through the spells in the book. None of the combat spells can be sustained (but you could still cast them from your meat vision while you're using VR) so skip them. Analyse Device is often discussed as helping provide bonus dice, although to gain a bonus when using computer systems you'd need to cast at an uncomfortably high Force and get a lot of hits to get some net hits. Analyse Truth would be fine too: you would (meatspace) touch a metahuman while casting it and then (meatspace) listen to it while in VR and get a sense of how authentic its claims are. Could be useful (situational). Combat Sense would give your limp meat body a few extra dice to help offset the -8 penalty when defending against ranged and mêlée attacks. Detect Life/Object and their variants would do what it says on the can, within a radius from a point you can move with a complex action. Mindlink could let you share mental images with someone your limp meat body continues to stay in contact with. Increase Attribute (for Bod or Wil) would grant you extra health boxes and increased chance to resist damage. Increase Reflexes won't stack with anything that says "doesn't stack with other magical/technological/chemical bonuses". Oxygenate would allow you to rig while your limp body is completely submersed - a much better option than trying to swim with a -6 penalty. Likewise Improved Invisibility could continue to mask your limp body while in VR, Levitate could be used to fly your inert body along behind your drone to maintain meatspace LoS etc. etc.

As a follow up question, if you Astral Project, does the spell work around your Projection or your Unconscious Body?

Other replies have kept saying that depends on whether it's a Mana or Physical spell but that's not the important thing. What matters is which plane the spell is cast on. Consider Borrow Sense (SM p166) as a Mana spell cast on the Physical plane. While the caster remains on the physical plane, he can receive exogenous sensory data. If the caster projects, the spell is left behind at its location on the physical plane. It doesn't matter that it's a Mana spell: it was cast on the physical plane and that's where it remains.

Mana Bind (SM p172) is a Sustained Mana spell and could be cast and sustained on the physical plane against living / magical beings or on the astral plane against astral forms. If the mage is on the physical plane, that's where the spell is cast. If on the astral plane, that's where it is cast. If the mage is on both planes at once (by being dual-natured, such as when astrally perceiving) the caster chooses which plane to cast the spell on. Once chosen, that's where the spell stays. SR4a p183. You can't cast on the physical, then project and take the spell with you. However, casting Increase (mental) Attribute on the physical plane and then projecting will mean the consequences of the spell (increased astral attributes) go with your astral form.

Certain Sustained Mana spells (such as Astral Armour SM p172) can only be cast on the astral plane. The effect stays with your astral form as it moves on the astral plane. Returning to your physical body (leaving the astral plane) abandons the spell: it cannot come with you back to the physical plane.

[Jonny Reload]

The fact that this has become an Anthropology lesson in how rules are written and what can be "discerned from text" makes me almost regret wanting to know the answer in the first place but I appreciate all the help from you guys (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Just.... Why is it when they release errata/FAQ's, they don't actually ever cover a lot of the stuff that needs answers?

[Yerameyahu]

Good point, Bodak: plane of casting is a much more direct connection.

[Irion]

Good point, Bodak: plane of casting is a much more direct connection.

Which kind of sucks, because you are able to break spells this way...

[Yerameyahu]

Yeah, that's why I was describing it as a slightly tricky question, earlier. The rules definitely have some major errors, if you blindly follow them to the letter. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Irion]

@Yerameyahu
The Problem here is, that it is a situation never thought of.

If I would need to rule it from the start, like I said before: Manaspells change plane with you, physical stay attached to the body. And physical spells also only work on "bodys".

(Because you need to apply this also to "powers"...)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

If I would need to rule it from the start, like I said before: Manaspells change plane with you, physical stay attached to the body. And physical spells also only work on "bodys".

(Because you need to apply this also to "powers"...)

See, I would say that they don't... The spell effect stays on the plane it was cast on. Pretty Simple, Cut, and Dried... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Bodak]

Which kind of sucks, because you are able to break spells this way...

It does? How so? I'm with TJ on this one - it's pretty simple and it works just fine saying a P spell can only be cast on the Physical plane, Mana can be cast on either, but a spell stays on the plane it was cast on. We know there is mana on the astral and the physical and there can be mana barriers on the astral or the physical. What's the big deal about mana spells being on the astral or the physical (but not both at once)?

The only gripe I can think of (a 'break' in the rationale, if you like) is that Mana spells are explicitly described as ones that affect the target's mind or living beings. So Increase Attribute would be a Mana spell (as it was in SR3) as it targets a living being. Increase mental Attribute would anyway. You would only need Increase Attribute to be a Physical spell (which it is in SR4) if you are applying it to drone limbs or vehicle body. In SR3 you needed the Physical version if you were trying to enhance a target who already had attribute-enhancing implants... even though those implants were "paid for with essence".

So far it just sounds like both of you are saying "There is no clear answer, GM's decision" unless someone can quote me a rule page on either of these subjects.

I think earlier people were giving their initial opinions based on what they thought would be balanced. But being a question on a forum, in time more solid quotations come. Since you had specifically mentioned the dearth of rules, I provided so many in my post I couldn't use the {quote} markups for them (the form said I had more than the allowed number of quotes}.

The fact that this has become an Anthropology lesson in how rules are written and what can be "discerned from text"

I think the remarks about flaws in the rules are just asides. We generally like and work with the rules but there's probably a bit of idealism that wishes English was as unambiguous as Python and that publishers were as rigorous as a compiler so that when we pay for this stuff, it works without too much brain-bending. I think people have tried to address your questions primarily and just poke at the holes in the rules as a secondary objective. Sometimes it's irresistable.