Automatic ammo selecter, Do drums fed weapons follow the same rules a revolvers? Options

[Warlordtheft]

I found a 20 shot revolver. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

http://www.horstheld.com/0-HDH.htm

Of course that is a pistol. I also could imagine a drum fed magizine could have a Ammoe selection feeder that selected then loaded the right grenade. THe ammo would have an RFID tag, while the drum would consist of a senor or sensors to monitor what ammo types were available, a rotating mechanism rather than your typical feeder mechanism, and a chamber that you could feeed the selected ammo into that would then feed it into the GL. Particularly useful with the smartling technology.

[Yerameyahu]

NiL, I argue that getting really bulky *is* an issue. And, following what I see in the books, I don't really believe in 'troll-sized weapons'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

3278, I'm talking about the *conversion* of a drum-fed production gun *to* a revolver; not the feasibility of a revolver production gun. The design you suggest seems pretty complex, as well; sounds like a hybrid drum-volver? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Warlordtheft, doesn't look like a normal production gun to me anyway, but the double-row design seems problematic (especially if we're talking about a conversion). I agree, it's *possible*, but it's clearly more complex.

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So. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) We've verified that GL-67 is *not* a revolver, and that only revolvers can ammo select (as opposed to ammo-skip). We're also sure that revolver-GLs could (should!) exist. A GM could also certainly allow some kind of *conversion* mod, but it doesn't exist RAW (and seems tough, to me).

The main problem is selectable grenades without wasting them. One partial solution, which doesn't strictly exist in SR4, is just to use Additional Clip; you'd get at 2 kinds, anyway. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Works better with box magazines/'clips' (i.e., MGL-12?), especially if you care about following the mod rules. The other solution we said it just for the GM to rule that a revolver-GL exists in the game, either as a GL-67 variant (per NiL), or a separate gun (per Phatpug). The ammo cap of this gun depends on the sheer size of the cylinder; we all agree that 8-12 definitely is reasonable, with 16-20 maybe getting silly? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It's really a minor issue, but interesting to discuss.

[KarmaInferno]

No, it really really doesn't.

The cylinder intersects directly with the barrel.

I would agree with you if the drum were lower down positioned BELOW the barrel/firing chamber, meaning it was pulling grenades up out of the drum with a feeding mechanism, but as far as the artwork goes it's definitely a revolver-type ammo supply.

I'm talking about the *conversion* of a drum-fed production gun *to* a revolver; not the feasibility of a revolver production gun.

It should in theory be possible, but you're really cutting the primary thing that makes a weapon what it is, the firing chamber, and replacing it with something else. It would probably be easier, cheaper, and safer to simply build a revolver grenade launcher from scratch than to convert a drum feed GL to a revolver type.



-k

[Yerameyahu]

Exactly. Anything is *possible*, but it seems unreasonable. What would work with a drum-feed is 3278's weird 'selective feed' rotary drum, but it just sounds so fragile and finicky to me, for a weapon.

[Mister Shed]

The RL comparison:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M32_MGL

It notes that it uses a revolver style action. Quite frankly I wouldn't want the large caliber shell casing flying all over the place after shooting them. Unless the Drum described (I'm AFB) has 20+ shots I'd treat as a revolver.

Keep in mind that the M32 MGL has a "spring-driven revolver-style magazine", which means that it's not a revolver. Reading the description of how it works, it appears that it is only possible to revolve through the six rounds once before needing to open it and rewind the spring.

What this means to me in game terms is that reloading a M32 should use the same rules as reloading a revolver (complex action because it doesn't use a clip/drum) and adding the ammo skip to it causes it to simply go past the round - it's not ejected (wasted) like it would be with a drum but you can't fire that round without reloading, unlike a revolver.

[Yerameyahu]

Ah, that's interesting. You also can't play Russian roulette with it, then. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Inu]

Keep in mind that the M32 MGL has a "spring-driven revolver-style magazine", which means that it's not a revolver. Reading the description of how it works, it appears that it is only possible to revolve through the six rounds once before needing to open it and rewind the spring.

What this means to me in game terms is that reloading a M32 should use the same rules as reloading a revolver (complex action because it doesn't use a clip/drum) and adding the ammo skip to it causes it to simply go past the round - it's not ejected (wasted) like it would be with a drum but you can't fire that round without reloading, unlike a revolver.

But yeah, in Shadowrun you can definitely imagine an electrically-driven cylinder that can stop on any selected round, forward or backward!

[CanRay]

"High-Ex!" *Whirring* "High-Ex Selected." "Damn I love this gun!"

[Yerameyahu]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) It wins for Cool, even though voice-activated guns are just the worst idea ever. Hehehe.

[CanRay]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) It wins for Cool, even though voice-activated guns are just the worst idea ever. Hehehe.

"Slot them up mode, Jeeves." "Very well, sir. Frappe mode engaged."

[3278]

3278, I'm talking about the *conversion* of a drum-fed production gun *to* a revolver; not the feasibility of a revolver production gun.

Yeah, so am I. The only part of the receiver that needs to change is the intersection of the drum and the firing chamber, and presumably the weapons you'd be doing this [like the GL-67-style launchers] would already take their ammo feed from the side, and from below.

The design you suggest seems pretty complex, as well; sounds like a hybrid drum-volver? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

If it sounds complex, I'm describing it wrong. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Exactly. Anything is *possible*, but it seems unreasonable. What would work with a drum-feed is 3278's weird 'selective feed' rotary drum, but it just sounds so fragile and finicky to me, for a weapon.

Internally, the design is no more fragile or finicky than any other drum, the primary difference being that there are four of them on one rotating assembly. Definitely the inclusion of a motor drive on a drum assembly massively increases complexity, but that's true of miniguns, as well, and this motor wouldn't need anything like the rate or torque of that one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I would be absolutely shocked if something like this didn't already exist; I'm not particularly clever, and you could build a working model in your garage, so I'm sure someone's already done this.

[Yerameyahu]

3278, your example is *not* converting to revolver. It's just a smarter drum. That's a topic, just not the one I was talking about.

Why would they? How often do users of riot-sized grenade launchers need to switch between 4 kinds of grenades in real life?

Back in SR terms, this would definitely be limited to SA at most (which is an issue only for the crazy people who BF grenades, hehe); that's standard for ammo selection on a normal revolver, I presume. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

A minigun, though, doesn't have to selectively feed individual bullets; it just runs through the belt. Like I said, your idea sounds possible (if I'm reading it right), but definitely more involved than a drum, revolver (smart or dumb), etc. It's more akin to how a tank has a human loader, who supplies the shell the gunner asks for each time.

[3278]

3278, your example is *not* converting to revolver. It's just a smarter drum. That's a topic, just not the one I was talking about.

Yeah, you're definitely right, that's not conversion to a revolver: it's conversion to an ammo select system, which is the topic I was talking about. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It would be weirdly arbitrary to limit the conversion of a grenade launcher into only a revolver; you could use a helical feed system, if you wanted, and maintain the vast majority of the original receiver. There are a bazillion ways to do this thing; whether you could make one that took 20 shells each with a 1 inch diameter, and fit them into a revolver six inches in diameter, is completely and utterly moot. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) A small-diameter revolver is never going to have a lot of large-diameter rounds. I don't think anyone's seriously talking about that.

Why would they? How often do users of riot-sized grenade launchers need to switch between 4 kinds of grenades in real life?

Shadowrun has such an incredible selection of grenades, and options for things to do with them that aren't available in real life. Now, I don't spend a lot of time using multiple-round grenade launchers, much less ones that take dozens of rounds, but it seems to me that, if they make lots of different types - flash-bangs, smoke, stun, fragmentation, gas - that's probably because several of those types are useful. Since combat situations are often not predictable, having an array of options is also useful. Having an array of possibly useful ballistic explosive options strikes me as something that some users might desire, particularly if they lost no other options, i.e. if they could still load a full battery of willie petes and go light up the night like the 4th of July.

Back in SR terms, this would definitely be limited to SA at most.

There's no particular reason it would need to be, although there's no particular reason most weapons in Shadowrun should be limited to the rates of fire they're limited to, either, so, sure, why not. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I'd probably require a more expensive conversion, though, if it were expected to work at any kind of autofire rate. [Because it would either mean a seriously quick commutation control, or a drum that just constantly spins, and just opens the port of whatever type is selected on the way past.]

Like I said, your idea sounds possible (if I'm reading it right), but definitely more involved than a drum, revolver (smart or dumb), etc.

Definitely more involved. Any kind of ammo select system is going to be more involved than not having an ammo select system. One computer-controlled electric motor and a drum with a handful of the same mechanism found on hundreds of thousands of rifle drums is as simple a way to ammo-select on a rotary drum as any I can think of. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Completely and utterly moot or not, it's what everyone else was talking about. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Mooting, if you will.

You changed your context there: you said you'd be surprised if it didn't exist in real life, and I said, 'why would it?'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) In SR, obviously we all want kooky 4-ammo systems. No need to convince me there.

Ah, like I said right in that quote, it's more involved than a smart revolver (an ammo select system). That's all. It's certainly an interesting idea. But, and I don't know too much about guns, I feel like everyone wants a system that is as simple as possible. Reliable, robust, fast, etc. My only concern is that this doesn't sound like it. I'll take a 'clip'-fed GL with Additional Clip.

[3278]

Completely and utterly moot or not, it's what everyone else was talking about.

Yeah, I just don't think that's true. You'd have to ask them, or maybe re-read the thread, but no, I don't think that's what everyone else was talking about.

You changed your context there: you said you'd be surprised if it didn't exist in real life, and I said, 'why would it?'.

Ah, my fault: I didn't understand the context in which you were asking the question. Still, the answer doesn't change, whether it's real life or Shadowrun, although the multitude of grenade types in Shadowrun magnifies its utility. But even in real life, the ability to go from lethal to non-lethal, or to be able to include smoke, gas, and flash-bang grenades, seems extremely useful. Maybe not: maybe it wouldn't be useful, or the idea's been discarded for some other reason [like, trying to pack dozens of grenades into a hand-carried launcher!].

Ah, like I said right in that quote, it's more involved than a smart revolver (an ammo select system). That's all. It's certainly an interesting idea. But, and I don't know too much about guns, I feel like everyone wants a system that is as simple as possible. Reliable, robust, fast, etc. My only concern is that this doesn't sound like it. I'll take a 'clip'-fed GL with Additional Clip.

It seems like I should put a marketing pitch in here, about how Shadowrun clearly has reliable, robust, fast commutator control, and how the basic mechanisms I've described are exactly as complicated as the ones on a modern machine gun and a modern lawnmower, but then I'd feel a little stupid. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/indifferent.gif) It was an answer to how a thing might be possible, guy: I'm sorry if you're going to be going with our competitor's bullshit "two clip" product. Don't come crying to me when you needed more than two kinds of grenades and didn't have them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Warlordtheft]

Why would they? How often do users of riot-sized grenade launchers need to switch between 4 kinds of grenades in real life?

Hmm, go from HE, ro WP, to smoke, or to Concussion grenades perhaps?

[Yerameyahu]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I know the options, and I understand that it's fun to do so in SR (and in Judge Dredd); I just feel like the use case for RL is very unlikely. This is only to explain to 3278 why his idea doesn't already exist. You'd think we would have at least heard about it as a curiosity. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Still sound much more complex than a machine gun, as I said. A machine gun isn't changing magazines on the fly; this is.