Hello Dumpshockers

looking through Arsenal last night and i was wondering if a drum fed grenade launcher, or any drum fed weapon for that matter, follows the same rules as revolvers for the automatic ammo selector modifications? It would be really cool to have a grenade launcher that you could load with the differed types of ammo and select what you want to use on the fly.

the GL-67 is a revolver-GL

No, they follow the rules for all the other types of weapons.
GL-67 is a drum-feed grenade launcher

ok so then the next question would be is there a revolver style grenade launcher or would you be able to modify an existing GL to be revolver?

There's nothing in the rules to do that, no. I can't speak to feasibility from a RL perspective, but I do know that gun guys seem pull off any crazy thing, with enough effort. Alternatively, the GM could rule that a revolver-GL pre-exists in the SR world, and let you buy it.

Well, the picture of the GL-67 in Arsenal looks definitely like a revolver GL

A player of mine and fellow Dumpshocker (Brazilian_Shinobi, i choose YOU!) made one of those up, using the modification rules on arsenal. It was Wireless linked, drum fed, and the ammo selection was used with wi-fi commands and electronic firing, if i recall correctly. Maybe he will post it up here.

I agree, NiL, and the simplest solution is for the GM to change it from Drum (which Mäx points out is the RAW for it) to Revolver.

Garou, if it's drum-fed, then it must use the Ammo *Skip* method, which wastes a lot of grenades.

They definitely exist. [Here] is an example.

Certainly they do. I was actually talking about the feasibility of an aftermarket mod to *convert* from drum to cylinder, per Phatpug's question; in my ignorance, it seems like a very major change to the whole system and structure.

Ok. i just found that Datahaven #1 actually has stats for an underbarrel mounted GL that has a 3(cy) for its ammo. so someone has stated one up, just as a modification. it should be pretty easy to just make it a full sized GL up it to 6(cy) or maybe 8(cy) and increase the price to.... say... 2000-3000¥

From Dumpshock Datahaven #1 pg 9
Colt M204 Underbarrel Grenade Launcher
The M204 is the standard workhorse underbarrel
grenade launcher used by military and security forces world
wide. A slight upgrade to the M203 of the past, the M204
has a three round cylindrical magazine, allowing the user to
load different grenades and select the round to be fired.
Mount: Under
Ammo: 3(cy)
Damage: Grenade
Availability: 8F
Mode: SS
Cost: 750¥

Sounds fair.

No, it really really doesn't.

Why would the drum have bulges if not a revolver style cylinder?

Easier to handle(better grip) then perfectly round drum.

well, in my group it is handled as a revolver-GL (but the only use so far is for Riot-Control drones, with an ammo selector and a loadout of different crowd control, smoke and some lethal grenades)

I gotta go with NiL on this one. The art definately looks like a 10-round cylinder.

The statline and blurb are clear that it is supposed to be a drum, though.

The RL comparison:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M32_MGL

It notes that it uses a revolver style action. Quite frankly I wouldn't want the large caliber shell casing flying all over the place after shooting them. Unless the Drum described (I'm AFB) has 20+ shots I'd treat as a revolver.

Yeah, I treat it like the M32 MGL it's pretty obviously based on. A drum magazine, which in an ammo select setup would be rotary and smartgun-controlled. Many of my characters modify their GL-67s that way.

Again, assuming the art is wrong (no one could deny that it clearly looks like a 10 or 12 (cy)), and assuming that the actual stats are correct, the 67 is a drum (not a revolver; 20 rounds!), and the only ammo selection it can do is *skipping* (ejecting) unused rounds until it arrives at the desired round. As I said earlier, it doesn't seem like modding that into a revolver would be reasonable.

Instead, there should be a separate (much lower capacity) revolver launcher in the game (e.g., M32). But you can't have *both* revolver style and huge capacity in the same gun. Phatpug's 6 or 8 (cy) seemed reasonable (and at a lower price than the GL-67). You could also make one with smaller grenades (because SR4 stupidly has no difference between 40mm and microgrenades). However, it seems to me that smaller grenades encourage drum/clip magazines.

Well, i think in SR 20mm or 25mm minigrenades would be standard, and such should fit in a 16(cy) setup, or even more in a Troll sized weapon. This could result in the following thing:

Enfield GL-67 "S"
Same stats as GL-67 except an ammunition capacity of 16(cy) and an integrated, smartgun-controlled Ammo Skip System.

@Yeramehu:
If you look at 3278s picture of an ammo drum, modifying it into a cylinder would reduce its ammo count only by 2 rounds, or 10%.

The GL-67 (and the M32) *looks* like 40mm to me, though; obviously, with 20(d), it's not 40mm.

NiL, I just don't see how you can reasonably make that into a revolver at all, but (as I said) I wouldn't bet against ingenuity. Still, I've never really seen real, production revolvers much about 8 shots, right? It starts to get silly; the MM-1 (with a mere 12) is kind of 'the exception that proves the rule', to me.

But, as I said, you could increase the capacity I quoted by using smaller grenades, which is exactly what the image shows. Sorry, I was talking about two different things at once, so I see how you got confused.

The SR grenades launcher do use smaller grenades(thats why GL-67:s drum can hold 20 and underbarrel launchers can hold 6), their called micro grenades same as the thrown ones.
I have been planning on writing up "heavy grenades"(old school 40mm with modern explosives) and launcher for those(including the current day six-pack revolver launcher), for the last couple months.
Would stat out those to somewhere between normal grenades and mortar rounds.

Because the cylinder gets really bulky, but that is not an issue with a grenade launcher

Take a circle. That's your drum face. Instead of only loading grenades around the outside, if you're going to have high capacity, as you point out, you're going to need to fill the internal volume with grenade, too. So cut that circle into x number of pie pieces [say, four]. Each type of grenade gets loaded into its piece of pie, and the whole drum rotates on its central spindle to feed the requested type of round to the weapon's receiver. You could do a similar thing with multiple internal helices, but I think it'd get inefficient of space.

I found a 20 shot revolver.

http://www.horstheld.com/0-HDH.htm

Of course that is a pistol. I also could imagine a drum fed magizine could have a Ammoe selection feeder that selected then loaded the right grenade. THe ammo would have an RFID tag, while the drum would consist of a senor or sensors to monitor what ammo types were available, a rotating mechanism rather than your typical feeder mechanism, and a chamber that you could feeed the selected ammo into that would then feed it into the GL. Particularly useful with the smartling technology.

NiL, I argue that getting really bulky *is* an issue. And, following what I see in the books, I don't really believe in 'troll-sized weapons'.

3278, I'm talking about the *conversion* of a drum-fed production gun *to* a revolver; not the feasibility of a revolver production gun. The design you suggest seems pretty complex, as well; sounds like a hybrid drum-volver?

Warlordtheft, doesn't look like a normal production gun to me anyway, but the double-row design seems problematic (especially if we're talking about a conversion). I agree, it's *possible*, but it's clearly more complex.

--
So. We've verified that GL-67 is *not* a revolver, and that only revolvers can ammo select (as opposed to ammo-skip). We're also sure that revolver-GLs could (should!) exist. A GM could also certainly allow some kind of *conversion* mod, but it doesn't exist RAW (and seems tough, to me).

The main problem is selectable grenades without wasting them. One partial solution, which doesn't strictly exist in SR4, is just to use Additional Clip; you'd get at 2 kinds, anyway. Works better with box magazines/'clips' (i.e., MGL-12?), especially if you care about following the mod rules. The other solution we said it just for the GM to rule that a revolver-GL exists in the game, either as a GL-67 variant (per NiL), or a separate gun (per Phatpug). The ammo cap of this gun depends on the sheer size of the cylinder; we all agree that 8-12 definitely is reasonable, with 16-20 maybe getting silly? It's really a minor issue, but interesting to discuss.

The cylinder intersects directly with the barrel.

I would agree with you if the drum were lower down positioned BELOW the barrel/firing chamber, meaning it was pulling grenades up out of the drum with a feeding mechanism, but as far as the artwork goes it's definitely a revolver-type ammo supply.



It should in theory be possible, but you're really cutting the primary thing that makes a weapon what it is, the firing chamber, and replacing it with something else. It would probably be easier, cheaper, and safer to simply build a revolver grenade launcher from scratch than to convert a drum feed GL to a revolver type.



-k

Exactly. Anything is *possible*, but it seems unreasonable. What would work with a drum-feed is 3278's weird 'selective feed' rotary drum, but it just sounds so fragile and finicky to me, for a weapon.

Keep in mind that the M32 MGL has a "spring-driven revolver-style magazine", which means that it's not a revolver. Reading the description of how it works, it appears that it is only possible to revolve through the six rounds once before needing to open it and rewind the spring.

What this means to me in game terms is that reloading a M32 should use the same rules as reloading a revolver (complex action because it doesn't use a clip/drum) and adding the ammo skip to it causes it to simply go past the round - it's not ejected (wasted) like it would be with a drum but you can't fire that round without reloading, unlike a revolver.

Ah, that's interesting. You also can't play Russian roulette with it, then.

But yeah, in Shadowrun you can definitely imagine an electrically-driven cylinder that can stop on any selected round, forward or backward!

"High-Ex!" *Whirring* "High-Ex Selected." "Damn I love this gun!"

It wins for Cool, even though voice-activated guns are just the worst idea ever. Hehehe.

"Slot them up mode, Jeeves." "Very well, sir. Frappe mode engaged."

Yeah, so am I. The only part of the receiver that needs to change is the intersection of the drum and the firing chamber, and presumably the weapons you'd be doing this [like the GL-67-style launchers] would already take their ammo feed from the side, and from below.


If it sounds complex, I'm describing it wrong.


Internally, the design is no more fragile or finicky than any other drum, the primary difference being that there are four of them on one rotating assembly. Definitely the inclusion of a motor drive on a drum assembly massively increases complexity, but that's true of miniguns, as well, and this motor wouldn't need anything like the rate or torque of that one. I would be absolutely shocked if something like this didn't already exist; I'm not particularly clever, and you could build a working model in your garage, so I'm sure someone's already done this.

3278, your example is *not* converting to revolver. It's just a smarter drum. That's a topic, just not the one I was talking about.

Why would they? How often do users of riot-sized grenade launchers need to switch between 4 kinds of grenades in real life?

Back in SR terms, this would definitely be limited to SA at most (which is an issue only for the crazy people who BF grenades, hehe); that's standard for ammo selection on a normal revolver, I presume.

A minigun, though, doesn't have to selectively feed individual bullets; it just runs through the belt. Like I said, your idea sounds possible (if I'm reading it right), but definitely more involved than a drum, revolver (smart or dumb), etc. It's more akin to how a tank has a human loader, who supplies the shell the gunner asks for each time.

Yeah, you're definitely right, that's not conversion to a revolver: it's conversion to an ammo select system, which is the topic I was talking about. It would be weirdly arbitrary to limit the conversion of a grenade launcher into only a revolver; you could use a helical feed system, if you wanted, and maintain the vast majority of the original receiver. There are a bazillion ways to do this thing; whether you could make one that took 20 shells each with a 1 inch diameter, and fit them into a revolver six inches in diameter, is completely and utterly moot. A small-diameter revolver is never going to have a lot of large-diameter rounds. I don't think anyone's seriously talking about that.


Shadowrun has such an incredible selection of grenades, and options for things to do with them that aren't available in real life. Now, I don't spend a lot of time using multiple-round grenade launchers, much less ones that take dozens of rounds, but it seems to me that, if they make lots of different types - flash-bangs, smoke, stun, fragmentation, gas - that's probably because several of those types are useful. Since combat situations are often not predictable, having an array of options is also useful. Having an array of possibly useful ballistic explosive options strikes me as something that some users might desire, particularly if they lost no other options, i.e. if they could still load a full battery of willie petes and go light up the night like the 4th of July.


There's no particular reason it would need to be, although there's no particular reason most weapons in Shadowrun should be limited to the rates of fire they're limited to, either, so, sure, why not. I'd probably require a more expensive conversion, though, if it were expected to work at any kind of autofire rate. [Because it would either mean a seriously quick commutation control, or a drum that just constantly spins, and just opens the port of whatever type is selected on the way past.]


Definitely more involved. Any kind of ammo select system is going to be more involved than not having an ammo select system. One computer-controlled electric motor and a drum with a handful of the same mechanism found on hundreds of thousands of rifle drums is as simple a way to ammo-select on a rotary drum as any I can think of.

Completely and utterly moot or not, it's what everyone else was talking about. Mooting, if you will.

You changed your context there: you said you'd be surprised if it didn't exist in real life, and I said, 'why would it?'. In SR, obviously we all want kooky 4-ammo systems. No need to convince me there.

Ah, like I said right in that quote, it's more involved than a smart revolver (an ammo select system). That's all. It's certainly an interesting idea. But, and I don't know too much about guns, I feel like everyone wants a system that is as simple as possible. Reliable, robust, fast, etc. My only concern is that this doesn't sound like it. I'll take a 'clip'-fed GL with Additional Clip.

Yeah, I just don't think that's true. You'd have to ask them, or maybe re-read the thread, but no, I don't think that's what everyone else was talking about.


Ah, my fault: I didn't understand the context in which you were asking the question. Still, the answer doesn't change, whether it's real life or Shadowrun, although the multitude of grenade types in Shadowrun magnifies its utility. But even in real life, the ability to go from lethal to non-lethal, or to be able to include smoke, gas, and flash-bang grenades, seems extremely useful. Maybe not: maybe it wouldn't be useful, or the idea's been discarded for some other reason [like, trying to pack dozens of grenades into a hand-carried launcher!].


It seems like I should put a marketing pitch in here, about how Shadowrun clearly has reliable, robust, fast commutator control, and how the basic mechanisms I've described are exactly as complicated as the ones on a modern machine gun and a modern lawnmower, but then I'd feel a little stupid. It was an answer to how a thing might be possible, guy: I'm sorry if you're going to be going with our competitor's bullshit "two clip" product. Don't come crying to me when you needed more than two kinds of grenades and didn't have them.

Hmm, go from HE, ro WP, to smoke, or to Concussion grenades perhaps?

I know the options, and I understand that it's fun to do so in SR (and in Judge Dredd); I just feel like the use case for RL is very unlikely. This is only to explain to 3278 why his idea doesn't already exist. You'd think we would have at least heard about it as a curiosity.

Still sound much more complex than a machine gun, as I said. A machine gun isn't changing magazines on the fly; this is.