[SR3] Weights. Lifting. Other Oddities., Beached Whale! Beached Whale! Oh, no, just a Giant. Options

[Stahlseele]

OK so . .
Having tried my luck with the mushclient and the seattle2064 world, i made a character. A Troll. Metavariant. Giant. 3.5m tall. 1028 kilos heavy.

I just noticed:
An SR3 GIANT Troll Meta Variant can weight in at up to 1100 kilo at full 3.5m size.
And at STR15 said giant could lift STR+D6x20 so a maximum of 420 kilos for Body Turns.
But on the other hand, said giant would be unable to pick himself up from the ground.
Much less stop himself from going down to the ground in the first place, because after body turns he gets one light stun per round.
this means 10 rounds and you are fainting because you are into over flow physical damage already from standing up only x.x . .
another 10 rounds later, you are dead. crushed/suffocated by your very own weight . .

The other way around: if a Giant can do a push up, even ONCE . . or let himself hang from somewhere gripping onto it even for some seconds . .
I turn right around and bench press a frigging CAR! or lift it up over my head. Because if i can do a push up with one ton, i can lie on my back and bench press one ton.
And if my fingers can hold one ton of my own weight for any ammount of time, the fingers can also lift and hold one ton up into the air for the same ammount of time . .

Furthermore: If i wanna kill something, i just SIT on him?
Nobody ELSE can lift even CLOSE to that kind of weight the Giant has and can lift.
And if i wanna block a section of the street, i just sit down on it and they need heavy machinery to get me away from there?

I, myself, am about 1,8 to 1,9m tall. I weight in at about 105-110 kilo.
Double my size to almost 4m and i would weight in at about 300 kilo or so.
which is a THIRD of the giants weight. While being BIGGER than the giant.

Somebody please tell me where i am going wrong here x.x

[Irion]

1. Problem: Giant to heavy.
2. Problem: It is never said in which way you may "lift" the stuff.
Bench press is one thing, lift something over your head is something different and hold something with a straight arm...

[Wakshaani]

Don't forget the square-cube law. Doubling your size will octuple your weight. You get twice as tall, twice as broad, and twice as deep. Many of the larger Metatypes, like the old Troll, were criminally *underweight* for their dimensions. For a comparison, the larger Tigers push 3 meters in length and weigh in around 300 kg. They'll be more slender than a Troll, obviously, and have less dermal plating, but that gives you a rough estimate.

Gorillas are around 1.8 meters tall (keeping in mind their stance is awkward) and come in near 200 kg.

Cattle are generally harvested around 750 kg in weight, but bulls of over 1700 have been known and THE largest was around 2100 kg.

Keep in mind, weight lifters in the modern world have kept pushing teh limits of what humanity can do. The current top of the powerlifting world has deadlifted 440 kg in a standard style and 500 kg in a modified one (Different grip allowed) ... Said record holder is 1.8 meters tall and weighs in at 171 kg himself.

[Tiralee]

So...how much of that 171kg consists of the ol' "Cultured Muscle Augmentation"? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Not to mention the Ti bone lacing.

-Tir.

[Wakshaani]

Heh. Safe to say that the guy's on some kind of steroid, yes, but nothing that's been caught yet.

Powerlifting competitions are one thing, but World's Strongest Man stuff is freakishly fun to watch at times. Like the car-rolling stuff, where it isn't enough for you to flip a car, oh no ... you're single-handedly flipping a car to get it to cross a finish line faster than the other guys. Not being able to flip one isn't even considered.

Crazy stuff. I mean, I'm a big guy, and back in the day, I could wreck a face, but, these guys make me just feel silly.

[Machiavelli]

OK so . .
Having tried my luck with the mushclient and the seattle2064 world, i made a character. A Troll. Metavariant. Giant. 3.5m tall. 1028 kilos heavy.

I just noticed:
An SR3 GIANT Troll Meta Variant can weight in at up to 1100 kilo at full 3.5m size.
And at STR15 said giant could lift STR+D6x20 so a maximum of 420 kilos for Body Turns.
But on the other hand, said giant would be unable to pick himself up from the ground.
Much less stop himself from going down to the ground in the first place, because after body turns he gets one light stun per round.
this means 10 rounds and you are fainting because you are into over flow physical damage already from standing up only x.x . .
another 10 rounds later, you are dead. crushed/suffocated by your very own weight . .

The other way around: if a Giant can do a push up, even ONCE . . or let himself hang from somewhere gripping onto it even for some seconds . .
I turn right around and bench press a frigging CAR! or lift it up over my head. Because if i can do a push up with one ton, i can lie on my back and bench press one ton.
And if my fingers can hold one ton of my own weight for any ammount of time, the fingers can also lift and hold one ton up into the air for the same ammount of time . .

Furthermore: If i wanna kill something, i just SIT on him?
Nobody ELSE can lift even CLOSE to that kind of weight the Giant has and can lift.
And if i wanna block a section of the street, i just sit down on it and they need heavy machinery to get me away from there?

I, myself, am about 1,8 to 1,9m tall. I weight in at about 105-110 kilo.
Double my size to almost 4m and i would weight in at about 300 kilo or so.
which is a THIRD of the giants weight. While being BIGGER than the giant.

Somebody please tell me where i am going wrong here x.x

1. Trolls are heavily underpowered regarding strenght, especially in comparison to dwarfes and orks. Problem that still goes on.
2. the weight-table was not very well thought-through. Adjust it to SR4-ratings.

[Murphy01]

I would so let you pick up a car and throw it if that was part of a run. As far as moving you if you sat down and blocked traffic, the authorities would probably ask you to move nicely once. Then they'd taser you and have some of the trolls (Equal Opportunity in the Workplace laws) load you on a flatbed and cart you off.

[Christian Lafay]

I would so let you pick up a car and throw it if that was part of a run. As far as moving you if you sat down and blocked traffic, the authorities would probably ask you to move nicely once. Then they'd taser you and have some of the trolls (Equal Opportunity in the Workplace laws) load you on a flatbed and cart you off.

My mind just mixed SR and Pokemon. And I blame you.

[snowRaven]

Somebody please tell me where i am going wrong here x.x

Like others said, you'd weigh a lot more than twice your weight at twice your height. Compare your weight with someone half your height.

- The Giant wouldn't have to make tests just to remain standing, he's only balancing his body-weight - not lifting it
- Doing push-ups you wouldn't push your full weight unless they were hand-stand push-ups. Compare bench pressing your full bodyweight to doing push-ups, and you'll see what I mean... In a push-up, your feet take a surprisingly large amount of the weight - all you have to do is pivot upward (which is why it gets a lot tougher to do if you put your feet on say, a sofa, and do push-ups)
- Getting up from the ground doesn't require lifting your own bodyweight - you can easily get by lifting no more than a quarter of your body-weight, and even less depending on how you apply the force of your muscles using four limbs; your back, etc.
- Many people can't lift their own bodyweight - can you do chin-ups or hand-stand push-ups? If no, then you can't really lift your bodyweight either. (of course, most of those people haven't maxed-out their strength either...) Holding your own weight while hanging is a lot easier than lifting that weight.
- Even people who can't lift their own body-weight in any othre way can usually jump - even if it isn't very high. The body is quite nifty in it's construction and capabilities.

That said; while the SR3 weights probably are pretty sensible, the strength-ratings and what they can lift aren't.

A muscular being of ten times the mass of an equally muscular human (Giant at 1000 kilos vs. human at 100) would be more than twice as strong in reality. A lot more.

A max-strength giant or even a regular troll SHOULD be able to flip, or even throw, a car.

[Wakshaani]

Well, again, look to nature and the 800 kg types, which is about the size of a buff (but not HUGE) Troll. They should have a strength leve comperable to a cow, or a brown bear (But not a Grizzly or a polar bear) ... so, strong, but not able to hoist a car and chuck it a country mile.

[Kagetenshi]

OK so . .
Having tried my luck with the mushclient and the seattle2064 world, i made a character. A Troll. Metavariant. Giant. 3.5m tall. 1028 kilos heavy.

I just noticed:
An SR3 GIANT Troll Meta Variant can weight in at up to 1100 kilo at full 3.5m size.
And at STR15 said giant could lift STR+D6x20 so a maximum of 420 kilos for Body Turns.
But on the other hand, said giant would be unable to pick himself up from the ground.
Much less stop himself from going down to the ground in the first place, because after body turns he gets one light stun per round.

For what it's worth, using your interpretation of the rules to require an individual to apply their body mass towards their lifting capacity, nearly the same is true of humans—a nominal human masses in at 70kg according to SR3 P47, which would require a Strength of at least 8 to carry without penalty. You would need to be at the lower end of world-class strength (and be not much more than nominal mass) to be able to walk continuously.

Of course, this is ignoring the fact that the load-carrying rules are completely incoherent. Just read p274—within a single paragraph (the second paragraph under Hauling the Load), they create a mysterious gap in carrying capacity (an individual can carry up to [Strength x 5 kilos] without appreciable effect", but appreciable effects only actually kick in at Strength x 10 kilos), they change their mind as to whether excessive load will "leave the character in a state equivalent to a [Stun wound]" or whether it will actually deal stun, they have a bizarrely precise cutoff where between Strength*15 kilos and Strength*20 minus epsilon kilos they're taking M (presumably Stun), at precisely Strength*20 kilos they're taking S, and at Strength*20 plus epsilon kilos they simply pass out (but do they take D Stun? Who knows?).

The load rules are my go-to example for the problems SR has with lack of attention to detail.

~J

[Murphy01]

Also I'd like to know what in the hell your giant is hauling around that weighs 420 kg? That's enough ammo to keep your gun in continous operation for like 5 YEARS and totally unneccessary. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Stahlseele]

Nothing yet, seeing how i somehow can't get my mind around the character creation x.x
it's the maximum he could lift over his head and hold there for Body Turns. Meaning he could life 420 kilo up 4 meters and hold them there for 12 turns, each turn being 3? seconds meaning 36 seconds. Afterwards he takes one deadly stun to the knee.

[Murphy01]

Don't know as I don't GM a lot of runs where people have to use Can-Rays two troll's carjacking method.

[CanRay]

Don't know as I don't GM a lot of runs where people have to use Can-Rays two troll's carjacking method.

Works great on Minis!

[OneTrikPony]

The lifting rules need to be weighted by race. I did this and posted it years ago but I can't find my post now.
Knasser, If he's still arround, did a pretty good job with a HR too as I recall.

Basically the rule should be that human (sized bipeds) get 5kg/point of STR for over head lifts and 15kg/point for deadlifts.
give orks and dwarves an extra 5kg/point
give trolls an extra 10

It will work out that everyone can do a few chinups or fireman carry a member of their their own race if they're within normal size values. Heavily cybered individuals will be able to do some impressive stuff like a human military-pressing an ork. Larger individuals will be able to move their own mass normally but still have a realistic (realative) disadvantage because:

Size doubled is mass cubed but strength is only squared. There's a reason elephants cant jump.

[Murphy01]

Well I am going to be GMimg I'm a little while. You should come out,Stahsteele, and see if your lifting problems are really a problem.

Also, Can-ray, is that a dead Mako Sachou as your avatar? Loved the Genesis game

[CanRay]

Also, Can-ray, is that a dead Mako Sachou as your avatar? Loved the Genesis game

Yeah, it is. He's one of the options for the Avatars for the board.

For some reason, I'm the only one that's taken him, I think. Mainly because that's how I feel most days.

[Murphy01]

Like you got your map ripped off by some noob runner?

[CanRay]

Like you got your map ripped off by some noob runner?

Like I got shot down by a hail of bullets.

[Murphy01]

Heh

[Stahlseele]

Well I am going to be GMimg I'm a little while. You should come out,Stahsteele, and see if your lifting problems are really a problem.

Also, Can-ray, is that a dead Mako Sachou as your avatar? Loved the Genesis game

as i said, i could not even finish the character creation yet, because somehow the numbers don't add up like they do in the NSRCG i use to help me with building characters . .
also, i need to get up in about 6 hours, so, no, off to bed now x.x

[snowRaven]

as i said, i could not even finish the character creation yet, because somehow the numbers don't add up like they do in the NSRCG i use to help me with building characters . .
also, i need to get up in about 6 hours, so, no, off to bed now x.x

Some people on here may be able to help with the number-crunching, maybe?

[Golgoth]

(this is mostly off topic) Ew, Seattle2064! No really, it's a fun system. There used to be a game called New Seattle that was more tabletop role playing oriented that was based on 4th edition. There is currently still an active role playing game that I suggest you check out sometime called Shadowrun Denver. I think you can find it on www.mudconnect.com

Seattle2064 might be a little different than the way you build your character for any number of reasons. The biggest ones that come to mind is that the game was built when 3E was new, the coder interpreted the rules differently, or it was simply easier for them to code things slightly differently in order to have the game run more smoothly.

[Patrick Goodman]

I did a weight article a long time ago in the Shadowrun Supplemental #13. I didn't address how much you could lift, but I did address the fact that editions prior to SR4 had laughable body weights.

Just off the top of my head, a giant at 350 cm and 1,028 kg is a little light. As to not being able to lift himself...in the real world, he really shouldn't be able to. But it's a magical world, so I've always told myself that's how trolls, et al, pick themselves off the ground in the first damn place.