Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: [SR3] Weights. Lifting. Other Oddities.
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Stahlseele
OK so . .
Having tried my luck with the mushclient and the seattle2064 world, i made a character. A Troll. Metavariant. Giant. 3.5m tall. 1028 kilos heavy.

I just noticed:
An SR3 GIANT Troll Meta Variant can weight in at up to 1100 kilo at full 3.5m size.
And at STR15 said giant could lift STR+D6x20 so a maximum of 420 kilos for Body Turns.
But on the other hand, said giant would be unable to pick himself up from the ground.
Much less stop himself from going down to the ground in the first place, because after body turns he gets one light stun per round.
this means 10 rounds and you are fainting because you are into over flow physical damage already from standing up only x.x . .
another 10 rounds later, you are dead. crushed/suffocated by your very own weight . .

The other way around: if a Giant can do a push up, even ONCE . . or let himself hang from somewhere gripping onto it even for some seconds . .
I turn right around and bench press a frigging CAR! or lift it up over my head. Because if i can do a push up with one ton, i can lie on my back and bench press one ton.
And if my fingers can hold one ton of my own weight for any ammount of time, the fingers can also lift and hold one ton up into the air for the same ammount of time . .

Furthermore: If i wanna kill something, i just SIT on him?
Nobody ELSE can lift even CLOSE to that kind of weight the Giant has and can lift.
And if i wanna block a section of the street, i just sit down on it and they need heavy machinery to get me away from there?

I, myself, am about 1,8 to 1,9m tall. I weight in at about 105-110 kilo.
Double my size to almost 4m and i would weight in at about 300 kilo or so.
which is a THIRD of the giants weight. While being BIGGER than the giant.

Somebody please tell me where i am going wrong here x.x
Irion
1. Problem: Giant to heavy.
2. Problem: It is never said in which way you may "lift" the stuff.
Bench press is one thing, lift something over your head is something different and hold something with a straight arm...
Wakshaani
Don't forget the square-cube law. Doubling your size will octuple your weight. You get twice as tall, twice as broad, and twice as deep. Many of the larger Metatypes, like the old Troll, were criminally *underweight* for their dimensions. For a comparison, the larger Tigers push 3 meters in length and weigh in around 300 kg. They'll be more slender than a Troll, obviously, and have less dermal plating, but that gives you a rough estimate.

Gorillas are around 1.8 meters tall (keeping in mind their stance is awkward) and come in near 200 kg.

Cattle are generally harvested around 750 kg in weight, but bulls of over 1700 have been known and THE largest was around 2100 kg.

Keep in mind, weight lifters in the modern world have kept pushing teh limits of what humanity can do. The current top of the powerlifting world has deadlifted 440 kg in a standard style and 500 kg in a modified one (Different grip allowed) ... Said record holder is 1.8 meters tall and weighs in at 171 kg himself.
Tiralee
So...how much of that 171kg consists of the ol' "Cultured Muscle Augmentation"? smile.gif

Not to mention the Ti bone lacing.

-Tir.


Wakshaani
Heh. Safe to say that the guy's on some kind of steroid, yes, but nothing that's been caught yet.

Powerlifting competitions are one thing, but World's Strongest Man stuff is freakishly fun to watch at times. Like the car-rolling stuff, where it isn't enough for you to flip a car, oh no ... you're single-handedly flipping a car to get it to cross a finish line faster than the other guys. Not being able to flip one isn't even considered.

Crazy stuff. I mean, I'm a big guy, and back in the day, I could wreck a face, but, these guys make me just feel silly.
Machiavelli
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jan 20 2012, 01:09 AM) *
OK so . .
Having tried my luck with the mushclient and the seattle2064 world, i made a character. A Troll. Metavariant. Giant. 3.5m tall. 1028 kilos heavy.

I just noticed:
An SR3 GIANT Troll Meta Variant can weight in at up to 1100 kilo at full 3.5m size.
And at STR15 said giant could lift STR+D6x20 so a maximum of 420 kilos for Body Turns.
But on the other hand, said giant would be unable to pick himself up from the ground.
Much less stop himself from going down to the ground in the first place, because after body turns he gets one light stun per round.
this means 10 rounds and you are fainting because you are into over flow physical damage already from standing up only x.x . .
another 10 rounds later, you are dead. crushed/suffocated by your very own weight . .

The other way around: if a Giant can do a push up, even ONCE . . or let himself hang from somewhere gripping onto it even for some seconds . .
I turn right around and bench press a frigging CAR! or lift it up over my head. Because if i can do a push up with one ton, i can lie on my back and bench press one ton.
And if my fingers can hold one ton of my own weight for any ammount of time, the fingers can also lift and hold one ton up into the air for the same ammount of time . .

Furthermore: If i wanna kill something, i just SIT on him?
Nobody ELSE can lift even CLOSE to that kind of weight the Giant has and can lift.
And if i wanna block a section of the street, i just sit down on it and they need heavy machinery to get me away from there?

I, myself, am about 1,8 to 1,9m tall. I weight in at about 105-110 kilo.
Double my size to almost 4m and i would weight in at about 300 kilo or so.
which is a THIRD of the giants weight. While being BIGGER than the giant.

Somebody please tell me where i am going wrong here x.x


1. Trolls are heavily underpowered regarding strenght, especially in comparison to dwarfes and orks. Problem that still goes on.
2. the weight-table was not very well thought-through. Adjust it to SR4-ratings.
Murphy01
I would so let you pick up a car and throw it if that was part of a run. As far as moving you if you sat down and blocked traffic, the authorities would probably ask you to move nicely once. Then they'd taser you and have some of the trolls (Equal Opportunity in the Workplace laws) load you on a flatbed and cart you off.
Christian Lafay
QUOTE (Murphy01 @ Jan 20 2012, 09:00 AM) *
I would so let you pick up a car and throw it if that was part of a run. As far as moving you if you sat down and blocked traffic, the authorities would probably ask you to move nicely once. Then they'd taser you and have some of the trolls (Equal Opportunity in the Workplace laws) load you on a flatbed and cart you off.

My mind just mixed SR and Pokemon. And I blame you.
snowRaven
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jan 20 2012, 01:09 AM) *
Somebody please tell me where i am going wrong here x.x


Like others said, you'd weigh a lot more than twice your weight at twice your height. Compare your weight with someone half your height.

- The Giant wouldn't have to make tests just to remain standing, he's only balancing his body-weight - not lifting it
- Doing push-ups you wouldn't push your full weight unless they were hand-stand push-ups. Compare bench pressing your full bodyweight to doing push-ups, and you'll see what I mean... In a push-up, your feet take a surprisingly large amount of the weight - all you have to do is pivot upward (which is why it gets a lot tougher to do if you put your feet on say, a sofa, and do push-ups)
- Getting up from the ground doesn't require lifting your own bodyweight - you can easily get by lifting no more than a quarter of your body-weight, and even less depending on how you apply the force of your muscles using four limbs; your back, etc.
- Many people can't lift their own bodyweight - can you do chin-ups or hand-stand push-ups? If no, then you can't really lift your bodyweight either. (of course, most of those people haven't maxed-out their strength either...) Holding your own weight while hanging is a lot easier than lifting that weight.
- Even people who can't lift their own body-weight in any othre way can usually jump - even if it isn't very high. The body is quite nifty in it's construction and capabilities.

That said; while the SR3 weights probably are pretty sensible, the strength-ratings and what they can lift aren't.

A muscular being of ten times the mass of an equally muscular human (Giant at 1000 kilos vs. human at 100) would be more than twice as strong in reality. A lot more.

A max-strength giant or even a regular troll SHOULD be able to flip, or even throw, a car.
Wakshaani
Well, again, look to nature and the 800 kg types, which is about the size of a buff (but not HUGE) Troll. They should have a strength leve comperable to a cow, or a brown bear (But not a Grizzly or a polar bear) ... so, strong, but not able to hoist a car and chuck it a country mile.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jan 19 2012, 07:09 PM) *
OK so . .
Having tried my luck with the mushclient and the seattle2064 world, i made a character. A Troll. Metavariant. Giant. 3.5m tall. 1028 kilos heavy.

I just noticed:
An SR3 GIANT Troll Meta Variant can weight in at up to 1100 kilo at full 3.5m size.
And at STR15 said giant could lift STR+D6x20 so a maximum of 420 kilos for Body Turns.
But on the other hand, said giant would be unable to pick himself up from the ground.
Much less stop himself from going down to the ground in the first place, because after body turns he gets one light stun per round.

For what it's worth, using your interpretation of the rules to require an individual to apply their body mass towards their lifting capacity, nearly the same is true of humans—a nominal human masses in at 70kg according to SR3 P47, which would require a Strength of at least 8 to carry without penalty. You would need to be at the lower end of world-class strength (and be not much more than nominal mass) to be able to walk continuously.

Of course, this is ignoring the fact that the load-carrying rules are completely incoherent. Just read p274—within a single paragraph (the second paragraph under Hauling the Load), they create a mysterious gap in carrying capacity (an individual can carry up to [Strength x 5 kilos] without appreciable effect", but appreciable effects only actually kick in at Strength x 10 kilos), they change their mind as to whether excessive load will "leave the character in a state equivalent to a [Stun wound]" or whether it will actually deal stun, they have a bizarrely precise cutoff where between Strength*15 kilos and Strength*20 minus epsilon kilos they're taking M (presumably Stun), at precisely Strength*20 kilos they're taking S, and at Strength*20 plus epsilon kilos they simply pass out (but do they take D Stun? Who knows?).

The load rules are my go-to example for the problems SR has with lack of attention to detail.

~J
Murphy01
Also I'd like to know what in the hell your giant is hauling around that weighs 420 kg? That's enough ammo to keep your gun in continous operation for like 5 YEARS and totally unneccessary. smile.gif
Stahlseele
Nothing yet, seeing how i somehow can't get my mind around the character creation x.x
it's the maximum he could lift over his head and hold there for Body Turns. Meaning he could life 420 kilo up 4 meters and hold them there for 12 turns, each turn being 3? seconds meaning 36 seconds. Afterwards he takes one deadly stun to the knee.
Murphy01
Don't know as I don't GM a lot of runs where people have to use Can-Rays two troll's carjacking method.
CanRay
QUOTE (Murphy01 @ Jan 20 2012, 07:25 PM) *
Don't know as I don't GM a lot of runs where people have to use Can-Rays two troll's carjacking method.
Works great on Minis!
OneTrikPony
The lifting rules need to be weighted by race. I did this and posted it years ago but I can't find my post now.
Knasser, If he's still arround, did a pretty good job with a HR too as I recall.

Basically the rule should be that human (sized bipeds) get 5kg/point of STR for over head lifts and 15kg/point for deadlifts.
give orks and dwarves an extra 5kg/point
give trolls an extra 10

It will work out that everyone can do a few chinups or fireman carry a member of their their own race if they're within normal size values. Heavily cybered individuals will be able to do some impressive stuff like a human military-pressing an ork. Larger individuals will be able to move their own mass normally but still have a realistic (realative) disadvantage because:

Size doubled is mass cubed but strength is only squared. There's a reason elephants cant jump.
Murphy01
Well I am going to be GMimg I'm a little while. You should come out,Stahsteele, and see if your lifting problems are really a problem.

Also, Can-ray, is that a dead Mako Sachou as your avatar? Loved the Genesis game
CanRay
QUOTE (Murphy01 @ Jan 20 2012, 08:13 PM) *
Also, Can-ray, is that a dead Mako Sachou as your avatar? Loved the Genesis game
Yeah, it is. He's one of the options for the Avatars for the board.

For some reason, I'm the only one that's taken him, I think. Mainly because that's how I feel most days.
Murphy01
Like you got your map ripped off by some noob runner?
CanRay
QUOTE (Murphy01 @ Jan 20 2012, 08:27 PM) *
Like you got your map ripped off by some noob runner?
Like I got shot down by a hail of bullets.
Murphy01
Heh
Stahlseele
QUOTE (Murphy01 @ Jan 21 2012, 01:13 AM) *
Well I am going to be GMimg I'm a little while. You should come out,Stahsteele, and see if your lifting problems are really a problem.

Also, Can-ray, is that a dead Mako Sachou as your avatar? Loved the Genesis game

as i said, i could not even finish the character creation yet, because somehow the numbers don't add up like they do in the NSRCG i use to help me with building characters . .
also, i need to get up in about 6 hours, so, no, off to bed now x.x
snowRaven
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jan 21 2012, 02:02 AM) *
as i said, i could not even finish the character creation yet, because somehow the numbers don't add up like they do in the NSRCG i use to help me with building characters . .
also, i need to get up in about 6 hours, so, no, off to bed now x.x


Some people on here may be able to help with the number-crunching, maybe?
Golgoth
(this is mostly off topic) Ew, Seattle2064! No really, it's a fun system. There used to be a game called New Seattle that was more tabletop role playing oriented that was based on 4th edition. There is currently still an active role playing game that I suggest you check out sometime called Shadowrun Denver. I think you can find it on www.mudconnect.com

Seattle2064 might be a little different than the way you build your character for any number of reasons. The biggest ones that come to mind is that the game was built when 3E was new, the coder interpreted the rules differently, or it was simply easier for them to code things slightly differently in order to have the game run more smoothly.
Patrick Goodman
I did a weight article a long time ago in the Shadowrun Supplemental #13. I didn't address how much you could lift, but I did address the fact that editions prior to SR4 had laughable body weights.

Just off the top of my head, a giant at 350 cm and 1,028 kg is a little light. As to not being able to lift himself...in the real world, he really shouldn't be able to. But it's a magical world, so I've always told myself that's how trolls, et al, pick themselves off the ground in the first damn place.
Wakshaani
*checking*

The largest (on average) biped these days is the red kangaroo, which comes in at about 90 kg and around 2 meters tall, putting them just a tad bigger than humans.

Alaskan Grizzly Bears, when on their hind legs, are about 3 meters in height and 500 KG, which is about where a Troll will wind up.

(Bathing suits on 'Bunnies', work safe varies, natch.)
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_E_o_0Bdm4GA/TM7a...ar-taken-by.jpg

These are thin versions shown. Hunt around for 'Kodiak' on the image search of your choice and that'll give you a decent scale for Trolls.
Patrick Goodman
Mine's based on people, Wak, not bears. smile.gif Mileage, might vary, of course.
OneTrikPony
QUOTE (Patrick Goodman @ Jan 21 2012, 08:30 PM) *
I did a weight article a long time ago in the Shadowrun Supplemental #13. I didn't address how much you could lift, but I did address the fact that editions prior to SR4 had laughable body weights.

Just off the top of my head, a giant at 350 cm and 1,028 kg is a little light. As to not being able to lift himself...in the real world, he really shouldn't be able to. But it's a magical world, so I've always told myself that's how trolls, et al, pick themselves off the ground in the first damn place.


I remember that. I think I have that TSS sitting on my HD somewhere. That was a good article.

I don't under stand where the 1100 kg number in the OP is coming from.
QUOTE (wiki square cube law)
When an object undergoes a proportional increase in size, its new volume is proportional to the cube of the multiplier and its new surface area is proportional to the square of the multiplier.

So, for argument, say that trolls have basic human proportions;
An average human is 175 cm and 78kg. Scale that to the size of an average troll 250cm you get a factor of 1.43. 1.43 cubed = 2.92, 2.92 * 78kg = 227kg. Trolls are propotionally more robust so you get the 300kg listed on p.72 of the book.

The OP's character is 350cm, 350/175=2, 2cubed = 8. 8 * 78 = 624. Just because trolls are proportionally more robust than humans doesn't mean that giants are also. In the only depiction I can recall they're rather human like in proportion except or having short legs and being leather bears So, while it doesn't fix the lifting problem I think 1100kg is a vast over estimate of their weight.

I DARE you to click that link if you havn't. I Double Dare you... biggrin.gif
Stahlseele
Well, the number comes from the shadowrun MUD Seattle64. Dunno if it's spot on with the numbers, but most numbers seem to be correct, so i have no real reason to doubt the value if weight being correct . .
Also, while normal Trolls get +4 Body and +1 from Dermal Plating, Giants get a +5 Body and no Dermal Plating, so, theoretically, they would be more robust than normal trolls, but lack natural armor . .
The bark skin is an SR4 thing which was not present in SR3 at all.
OneTrikPony
Barkskin, What?? Which pic of a Giant are you looking at? I only remember the one from... IDK what the book with all the metavarients was called in sr3. That Giant was pretty lanky looking. Do they have bark skin now? (I'm a little behind the times.)

+4 body in 2.5 meters IS more robust than +5 body in 3.5 meters. That's just my interpretation based on that picture, but the math supports it. I've always pictured a giant standing next to a troll looking a lot like Yau Ming standing next to Lou Ferrigno.

But Speaking of strength.
I've just been playing with Xcell. I think the best way to do strength might be to set average strength, (Racial base +2, ie; 3 for humans 7 for trolls), to lift average body weight for that race. Use half that number for an overhead lift. To give a realistic projection of higher and lower strengths put it on an S cruve to represent deminising returns at higher levels of augmentation.

It would look something like this:
Base: 1/4 bodyweight
Base +1: 1/2 bodyweight
Base +2: 1x bodyweight
Base +3: 2x bodyweight
Base +4: 4x bodyweight
base +5: 5x bodyweight (racial maximum)
base +6: 6x bodyweight (augmented strength)
Base +7: 6.5x bodyweight (augmented strength)
Base +8: 7x bodyweight (augmented strength)

It's not as simpple as "#N kg/ point of STR" but its works for each metatype and keeps things in a realistic range till you get to augmented levels at the very least it puts the STR 6 human in the range of a 350-400Kg deadlift where it should be.
Stahlseele
Yeah, as of SR4, Giants are part Tree, or at least they look like it, because they have such leathery skin, that it looks like Tree Bark appearantly . . If i remember correctly . .
Patrick Goodman
They're not. I wouldn't put much stock in the picture in Runner's Companion, if that's what you're talking about. The art there is...unfortunate. The "leathery skin" is something that got added in later for...well, God only knows why, but it's about stupid.

There's much to be ignored in RC. This is part of it.

(I wish to emphasize at this point that I don't speak for CGL (or anybody else) in anything resembling an official capacity, and those that have said capacity might think the sudden, unexplained, unneccessary changes to metavariants are just the bee's knees. As a writer, though...it's stupid. But I'm speaking only for myself when I say that.)
CanRay
So, more authors that get the chair and duct tape routine to explain why they did things?
snowRaven
QUOTE (Patrick Goodman @ Jan 22 2012, 06:17 PM) *
They're not. I wouldn't put much stock in the picture in Runner's Companion, if that's what you're talking about. The art there is...unfortunate. The "leathery skin" is something that got added in later for...well, God only knows why, but it's about stupid.

There's much to be ignored in RC. This is part of it.

(I wish to emphasize at this point that I don't speak for CGL (or anybody else) in anything resembling an official capacity, and those that have said capacity might think the sudden, unexplained, unneccessary changes to metavariants are just the bee's knees. As a writer, though...it's stupid. But I'm speaking only for myself when I say that.)


You wouldn't happen to have a nice little list of such last-minute changes, would you? There's a lot of things in RC that I question... LoL


Oh, and CanRay? You know that on the off-chance that a shadowrun-writer ever gets unwillingly duct-taped to a chair, you'll be in all kinds of trouble, right? grinbig.gif
CanRay
Story of my life... Yeah, Bull will probably come in with a prop of a Panther Assault Cannon and beat me with it.
Stahlseele
Yeah, but Bull's a sourly OLD Orc Decker.
If you can't dodge BULL you deserve everything that's coming for you nyahnyah.gif ^^
CanRay
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jan 22 2012, 06:00 PM) *
Yeah, but Bull's a sourly OLD Orc Decker.
If you can't dodge BULL you deserve everything that's coming for you nyahnyah.gif ^^
My knees are worse than his. I have canes.
OneTrikPony
QUOTE (Patrick Goodman @ Jan 22 2012, 01:17 PM) *
They're not. I wouldn't put much stock in the picture in Runner's Companion, if that's what you're talking about. The art there is...unfortunate. The "leathery skin" is something that got added in later for...well, God only knows why, but it's about stupid.


Ohh...!

I just figured out that you're talking about the SR4 runners companion. I've always had the 'leather bear' giant in my head from SR2-3 Shadowrun Companion. My thumbs don't even flip to any page in any book with a meta-variant anymore, I've never seen that picture in the RC before.

I concur, that art sucks. Go with the leatherbear version biggrin.gif
Eimi
QUOTE (Patrick Goodman @ Jan 22 2012, 10:17 AM) *
They're not. I wouldn't put much stock in the picture in Runner's Companion, if that's what you're talking about. The art there is...unfortunate. The "leathery skin" is something that got added in later for...well, God only knows why, but it's about stupid.

There's much to be ignored in RC. This is part of it.

(I wish to emphasize at this point that I don't speak for CGL (or anybody else) in anything resembling an official capacity, and those that have said capacity might think the sudden, unexplained, unneccessary changes to metavariants are just the bee's knees. As a writer, though...it's stupid. But I'm speaking only for myself when I say that.)


Let me just say that I would strongly support a re-write/reboot of the Runner's Companion with my wallet. There's plenty that's pretty good, but there's so much that's not good that it really needs...well, more than just errata.
Wakshaani
IMHO, the Runner's Companion is the single most important book outside of the core rules. It's teh one that details how things work in a general sense, with scads of stuff for players and GMs, variant rules, different campaign styles ... in many ways, it's teh Directory's COmmentary of the core rulebook, and one of the few books that ever talks directly to the playerbase.

If a 2.0 version (Fixer's Little Black Book?) came down the pipe, I'd be all over it.
OneTrikPony
QUOTE (Eimi @ Jan 23 2012, 02:34 AM) *
Let me just say that I would strongly support a re-write/reboot of the Runner's Companion with my wallet. There's plenty that's pretty good, but there's so much that's not good that it really needs...well, more than just errata.

I second this Strongly. I'd definitely pay for runners companion again if it would completely ignore surge and metavarients while expanding on AI and dropping the bad art.
OneTrikPony
oops double post. sry embarrassed.gif
Bigity
Has anyone taking SR3 rules and adapted them to the SR4 AR/wireless matrix? I was thinking about coming up with something for my own use, but I'd bet someone has at least started something like that already.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012