Physical and stun damage, Somtimes stun seems to be worse... Options

[Irion]

Jesus, christ....
NOBODY HERE WAS EVER SUGGESTING TO TAKE OFF THE ARMOR MID BATTLE. (Well, dropping a sustained armor spell might be something that would "use" this bug)


The point is, that physical damage is not really more of a problem than stun damage.

They can be healed equally fast with first aid. You will have more physical boxes...
The fluff says: Thank god, the vest caught the bullet.
The crunch says: God damn, the vest caught the bullet.

@Warlordtheft
Reduce your armor by one point (increase constitution by one if you do not want to make new numbers) and your guy keeps standing a bit longer.

[thorya]

Non-Lethal is not necessarily Kid-Gloves, it is just not Lethal (most of the time). Big Difference. In real life, a Taser is often just as good as a 9mm for taking someone down. It has the added benefit of not being very likely to kill the target.

AS for player control, or I win... it is the argument. Players (or maybe even GM's) argue that it sucks that the target did not go down because this time they penetrated the vest (and now the damage is applied differently). My first question is... How do they know? They shouldn't. That covers it. If they do not know, they cannot ask the question, and the issue disappears like so much mist in the morning.

With the track record of this conversation, We are not going to agree here. We see things from two completely different perspectives. Just sayin'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

1. Taser's are often not just as effective at taking someone down as a 9mm. Which is why police officers still carry guns.
2. I believe I outlined a situation where a player should have lost and the break in reality was when they didn't. So this isn't about "winning" whatever that means in an rpg.
3. You're right, you're not going to agree. So stop trolling. You don't think there are any problems with the rules. Okay, fine. You think that they model reality and that they should be applied as written except when they interfere with a narrative. Okay, fine. You think that if a player ends up in a situation where their character sheet says they're conscious and can perform actions, they should ignore what the rules say and act according to their perceived reality of the world. Okay, fine. Everyone else thinks that it breaks the reality of the game world for us when a punch to the gut is more likely to cause someone to collapse from pain than a gun shot wound to the gut. And we're trying to talk about ways to make the rules better fit what we see as reality so we can stay immersed. That's not metagaming.

Why are you continuing to have this discussion if it doesn't break the reality for you? Because right now it seems like you're only here to tell everyone that they're metagaming and that everyone but you is playing the game wrong.

Then fine, TJ, we are metagaming and all of this discussion is because none of us know how to play. There are never any situations where the mechanics break down and we're all just looking to exploit things because we're terrible people that don't know how to play rpg's. Now can all of us terrible metagamers go back to discussing ways to correct what we see as a problem? Because I would like to hear some house rules for making what is not a perfect game go a little smoother for my group. And I am tired of all of this semantic BS.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Um. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Ironically, TJ, I never said you used or promoted S&S. The fact that you resort once again to personal arguments is telling.

Apologies if I read your post wrong.

Non-lethal *is* kid gloves, when you're talking about ranged combat (as we have been). It's true that the balance is slightly different in melee.

I didn't say anything about 'worse' (which is obviously too vague to use). I said that there's a fundamental distinction between the real-life case and the SR4. In real-life, bullets doing stun and bullets doing physical affect the target in a way that is *not* modeled by the SR4 rules. Specifically, more bullets of either kind *always* drops the target faster in RL; in SR, this is not true.

Actually, this is not true, even in RL. If you take a few of bullets, and half impact on the armor, they do not fall faster than (or even equal to) the guy who took all the bullets through the vest. That is patently false. The guy who takes the bullets on the armor generally stays in the fight longer, barring any unusual circumstance.

The point is nothing to do with who's winning, or *characters* knowing there's a glitch. The point is that the glitch exists. Saying this is a player whining or player exploit issue is just trying to discredit the whole question by associating it with something people don't like. The point, again, is that *ignorance* of the glitch (or ignoring it, or avoiding it, etc.) doesn't *remove* the glitch. As I've repeatedly said, it's not a gameplay issue. It's a theory issue. If the rules said that aircraft carriers had Body 2, that would be a rules failure. It would never affect gameplay, but that's not a reason to leave the error.

You keep saying that there is a "Glich" in the system, and I keep telling you that I disagree with that. I am not ignoring it, nor avoiding it. I think that the system works as it is intended to. In the end, it IS someone whining that "it is not fair, they should have gone down." It is only a theoretical issue, if you believe that the system is not working as it is intended. For those that do, the theory is broken/flawed. The fact that it does NOT come into play, as even you indicate, proves the point.

Do you see the Issue now? I don't think I can put it any plainer. If there is no Issue, and the Theory you are putting forth is flawed (which I believe it is), then why should I even care to look at it, let alone fix it? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

TJ, that's exactly my point (and what I said): in RL, Physical bullets *do* drop you faster. If they *all* hit the vest, you do not drop slower than half and half (or no vest). In SR, the opposite is true. This mismatch is undesirable.

It's not an opinion. You can't disagree: there are cases when more damage doesn't drop the target (or, when less damage *does*). This contradicts the reality that the rules are intended to model, and it contradicts the basic trend (more damage hurts more) the rules are intended to model. If you think that this state of affairs is *intended*, I'd love to see you try to motivate that position.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

1. Taser's are often not just as effective at taking someone down as a 9mm. Which is why police officers still carry guns.
2. I believe I outlined a situation where a player should have lost and the break in reality was when they didn't. So this isn't about "winning" whatever that means in an rpg.
3. You're right, you're not going to agree. So stop trolling. You don't think there are any problems with the rules (WRONG). Okay, fine. You think that they model reality and that they should be applied as written except when they interfere with a narrative (WRONG). Okay, fine. You think that if a player ends up in a situation where their character sheet says they're conscious and can perform actions, they should ignore what the rules say and act according to their perceived reality of the world (SORT OF, Their actions should be informed by the sheet). Okay, fine. Everyone else thinks that it breaks the reality of the game world for us when a punch to the gut is less likely to cause someone to collapse from pain than a gun shot wound to the gut (But yet, this is what I have been saying... Punches are less worrisome than gunshots... where did you think I said otherwise?). And we're trying to talk about ways to make the rules better fit what we see as reality so we can stay immersed. That's not metagaming.

Why are you continuing to have this discussion if it doesn't break the reality for you? Because right now it seems like you're only here to tell everyone that they're metagaming and that everyone but you is playing the game wrong.

Then fine, TJ, we are metagaming and all of this discussion is because none of us know how to play. There are never any situations where the mechanics break down and we're all just looking to exploit things because we're terrible people that don't know how to play rpg's. Now can all of us terrible metagamers go back to discussing ways to correct what we see as a problem? Because I would like to hear some house rules for making what is not a perfect game go a little smoother for my group. And I am tired of all of this semantic BS.

Simply Amazing, Thorya, drink too much coffee today?

1. They carry both so that they have options. Not every Problem needs a Hammer, and more often than not, they would prefer to take people alive. Pistols limit that option. Adding Tasers open those options up.

2. And (if I remember correctly) I disagreed with your scenario. Don't actually remember becasue there have been so many.

3. Not trolling. I am putting forth my opinion, just as you are. I am not calling you stupid, or insulting you (not knowingly anyways), nor am I treating you in a condescending manner, so stop trying to do the same to me. There are a few problems with the rules. This just does not happen to be an area where I think there is a problem.

A Punch to the Gut IS less likely to cause the trarget to collapse from Pain than a Gunshot. I have never said it wasn't. WHat I did say is that The capriciousness of the armor means that sometimes physical damage will go through and sometimes it may not, dependant upon how well the shooter hits. That is Real Life, just as it is in Shadowrun. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it does not.

Not once did I say that they should ignore the character sheet when taking their actions. I said that he Character sheet should INFORM their actions. Ther eis a big difference in the followoing two situations...

* "Hey, I'm still conscious, let me do what I just want to do, after all, it is only dice penalties" - I have actually witnessed this mentality on more than one occasion, seeing as how that is the way most people play.
** "Damn, I am pretty shot up, I think I will limp my ass to my partner, call my car to us, and then try to get away." - Sadly, not a very common occurence, because everyone wants to be a superhuman juggernaut who ignores such piddly things as WOund penalties and such (See first scenario).

Same wound penalties, completely different scenarios.

I am still here, becasue there are individuals who are still not getting what I have been saying. Eveidenced by your above post. None of the things that you accuse mn of did I actually say or even hint at. See the notes I appended to your Topic 3 Rant...

Congratulations, at least I have remained civil.

[Yerameyahu]

The issue is that they don't get to make that roleplay decision, because they're unconscious. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Or should've been, yet randomly aren't.

Your position is that the weirdness is intentional because it adds extra randomness to the system? The dice weren't enough for that?

[thorya]

Simply Amazing, Thorya, drink too much coffee today?

1. They carry both so that they have options. Not every Problem needs a Hammer, and more often than not, they would prefer to take people alive. Pistols limit that option. Adding Tasers open those options up.

2. And (if I remember correctly) I disagreed with your scenario. Don't actually remember becasue there have been so many.

3. Not trolling. I am putting forth my opinion, just as you are. I am not calling you stupid, or insulting you (not knowingly anyways), nor am I treating you in a condescending manner, so stop trying to do the same to me. There are a few problems with the rules. This just does not happen to be an area where I think there is a problem.

A Punch to the Gut IS less likely to cause the trarget to collapse from Pain than a Gunshot. I have never said it wasn't. WHat I did say is that The capriciousness of the armor means that sometimes physical damage will go through and sometimes it may not, dependant upon how well the shooter hits. That is Real Life, just as it is in Shadowrun. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it does not.

Not once did I say that they should ignore the character sheet when taking their actions. I said that he Character sheet should INFORM their actions. Ther eis a big difference in the followoing two situations...

* "Hey, I'm still conscious, let me do what I just want to do, after all, it is only dice penalties" - I have actually witnessed this mentality on more than one occasion, seeing as how that is the way most people play.
** "Damn, I am pretty shot up, I think I will limp my ass to my partner, call my car to us, and then try to get away." - Sadly, not a very common occurence, because everyone wants to be a superhuman juggernaut who ignores such piddly things as WOund penalties and such (See first scenario).

Same wound penalties, completely different scenarios.

I am still here, becasue there are individuals who are still not getting what I have been saying. Eveidenced by your above post. None of the things that you accuse mn of did I actually say or even hint at. See the notes I appended to your Topic 3 Rant...

Congratulations, at least I have remained civil.

Now I'm just confused.
You do think there are problems with these rules?
You don't think they model reality? Or you don't think narrative trumps rules?

Also, the punch to the gut is more likely to cause someone to collapse, with RAW. It was a typo in my "rant". I apologize for that.

**That's exactly what would happen in one of our games. You're the one that assumed that the player was going to just power through. In my scenario it was the difference between a player being able to call the car and get away and being unconscious. I apologize if the use of the phrase "Haul ass out of there" implied that they would be doing anything besides making an escape.

And thank you for remaining so civil. I don't drink coffee.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

TJ, that's exactly my point (and what I said): in RL, Physical bullets *do* drop you faster. If they *all* hit the vest, you do not drop slower than half and half (or no vest). In SR, the opposite is true. This mismatch is undesirable.

It's not an opinion. You can't disagree: there are cases when more damage doesn't drop the target (or, when less damage *does*). This contradicts the reality that the rules are intended to model, and it contradicts the basic trend (more damage hurts more) the rules are intended to model. If you think that this state of affairs is *intended*, I'd love to see you try to motivate that position.

PHYSICAL Does, Yes, but if half of them impact your vest, you do not really take any appreciable damage compared to when it penetrates, so no, if you have 2 guys, and one takes 4 bullets through the vest, and the other only takes 2, it is highly likely that the one who had two actually stopped by the vest is still up. JUST LIKE IN SHADOWRUN.

Yes, there are situations where more or less damage has an effect way out of proportion to the norm. On both ends, never have I said otherwise. Not sure why you think I did. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

More Damage DOES hurt more in Shadowrun, as evidenced by the Incrementing Wound Penalties, regasrdless of whether it is Stun or Physical. And that is DEFINITELY intended, or do you think otherwise? More damage hurts more is definitely modeled in Shadowrun the way it is. You may not like the way it is actually modeled, but it is modeled nonetheless. I cannot argue your likes and dislikes, but I can point out that your base argument is flawed, because the system does indeed do what you want it to, just not the way that you would prefer it to do so.

However, the issue I am seeing is that there are those that contend that BECAUSE they hit harder, they have less of an effect, and that is patently false. What they had is an unintended consequence (that happens to mimic RL). They wanted the guy to go down, but because the bullet penetrated, even thought the target is now hurt much more severely (Since Physical is more serious than stun as far as damage goes), he is still capable of reacting, though probably in less of a capacity, he still has the potential to cause the shooter damage. I disagree with that. The target HAS INDEED been wounded more severely than if he had just caught the bullet on the armor and taken stun. He now likely has an additional wound penalty to contend with, and yes, he is still Up. SO WHAT. Happens IRL all the time. Talk to any cop on the street, or any military guy who has actually been in combat using modern combat armor. It happens.

If your goal is to change the System so that a single shot is debilitating, then you change the dynamic of the game itself. I think that the system is already good at mimicing what it needs to, and yet still maintain playability and fun. More granualarity in the combat system that is already very deadly (and generally resulting in a more deadly system as a result) is a bad thing, in my opinion, unless you like making characters a lot.

Thanks for some of your clarifications. Regardless of what some may say, it is an interesting topic of debate for me.

[thorya]

PHYSICAL Does, Yes, but if half of them impact your vest, you do not really take any appreciable damage compared to when it penetrates, so no, if you have 2 guys, and one takes 4 bullets through the vest, and the other only takes 2, it is highly likely that the one who had two actually stopped by the vest is still up. JUST LIKE IN SHADOWRUN.

That's not the issue. The issue is that the third guy that has all 4 of the bullets stopped in the vest is not still up. If it was just the first two cases, no one would have a problem. The armor is working and keeping the guy standing when it stops some of the bullets. It's when stopping all of the bullets makes you less likely to be standing that we have a problem.

[Yerameyahu]

PHYSICAL Does, Yes, but if half of them impact your vest, you do not really take any appreciable damage compared to when it penetrates, so no, if you have 2 guys, and one takes 4 bullets through the vest, and the other only takes 2, it is highly likely that the one who had two actually stopped by the vest is still up. JUST LIKE IN SHADOWRUN.

No, this is the opposite of SR4. 4 bullets: Mr-A takes takes 4 physical hits, Mr-B takes 2-2, Mr-C takes 4 stun hits.
In SR4, Mr-C is dropped, but Mr-B is *not*.
In RL, Mr-C should be the 'least dropped', not Mr-B (who took two wounds and two vest hits). I've explained this three times. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Yes, more damage does hurt more… right up to the point that the guy with *less* damage goes down first. That's my precise issue: the curve works fine up until that point. That's how we know there's a problem, because the curve stops/goes wonky.

Any random effects of armor are already modeled in the game by Damage Resistance tests. There is no need or motivation to ascribe this glitch to an *intentional* source of realistic game randomness.

I don't believe I've seen anyone talk about single-shot debilitation, nor more granularity. The *only* point is to smooth out the wound-and-KO curve.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Now I'm just confused.
You do think there are problems with these rules?
You don't think they model reality? Or you don't think narrative trumps rules?

Also, the punch to the gut is more likely to cause someone to collapse, with RAW. It was a typo in my "rant". I apologize for that.

**That's exactly what would happen in one of our games. You're the one that assumed that the player was going to just power through. In my scenario it was the difference between a player being able to call the car and get away and being unconscious. I apologize if the use of the phrase "Haul ass out of there" implied that they would be doing anything besides making an escape.

And thank you for remaining so civil. I don't drink coffee.

Hey, No worries, Thorya. I do enjoy the debate.

Lets see...

There are problems with the rules in some places, yes. I do not think that the particular toipic of debate falls into that category. I think it hinges on the difference in perspective of what is a "Worse" result. I always consider Physical Damage to be more debilitating than Stun, thematically, because it is, at least thematically. That said, if you have shot someone several times, and the vest has stopped the rounds (Stun damage) and then they get shot (Physical Damage) through the vest, it may not "Drop" them, even in real life. Yes, they are still hurt far worse than they would have been previously, but dependant upon amount of damage, location, and a few other factors, the target may still be conscious. Some think this is a bad thing. I do not. It is, in fact, advantageous, for both sides of the combat.

That said, yes, if you are near your capacity for stun, and someone punches you in the gut, you are likley to go unconscious. That is the joy of having a system like this. Works the same way in NWOD, too. Though in that system, it is a single track that pushes damage towards unconsciousness/death. Again, I don't see a problem with that.

As for narrative. I always try to model my narrative (Character or GM<) on the results of what happened (Mechanics). Yes, the term "Haul Ass" is a poor choice of words for a character that has taken 9 boxes of Stun and 4 boxes of Physical. There is not going to be any such actions performed with those would levels. That is why I say that the Sheet should Inform the narrative. I don't care if you are the Terminator or Rambo, once you are on your last legs (and 9 boxes of stun out of 10 is nothing but), you are not likely going to be wading through the opposition. Unfortunately, How many times do you see that very circumstance crop up in your games? It has absolutely nothing to do with the splitting of the damage allocated between tracks. Many RP'ers do not take such things into account, because most of them have come from a DnD perspective, where you are good until you drop. This irritates me.

As for coffee, Me neither, it is bad for you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

No, this is the opposite of SR4. 4 bullets: Mr-A takes takes 4 physical hits, Mr-B takes 2-2, Mr-C takes 4 stun hits.
In SR4, Mr-C is dropped, but Mr-B is *not*.

In RL, Mr-C should be the 'least dropped', not Mr-B (who took two wounds and two vest hits). I've explained this three times. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Correct, Guy a and C are likely out of it, and Guy B is not. And that is a good thing. Again, I have explained this MORE than 3 times.

Yes, more damage does hurt more… right up to the point that the guy with *less* damage goes down first. That's my precise issue: the curve works fine up until that point. That's how we know there's a problem, because the curve stops/goes wonky.

Any random effects of armor are already modeled in the game by Damage Resistance tests. There is no need or motivation to ascribe this glitch to an *intentional* source of realistic game randomness.

I don't believe I've seen anyone talk about single-shot debilitation, nor more granularity. The *only* point is to smooth out the wound-and-KO curve.

I don't think that is necessary, though, and I have explained why. The guy with "Less" damage who takes a full stun track SHOULD GO UNCONSCIOUS when his track is full. Even though he has taken no Physical Daamge. He has been beaten to a bloody pulp, but has yet to sustain anything "real" that cannot heal in a relatively short span.

Guy A, B, and C all theoretically took the same amount of damage (Assume Damage equaling 11, to make the math easy (I know, poor Armor all around, but hey), and 10 Box Health Tracks (Body3)), but Guy B was able to spread it a bit to maintain functionality. Kudos for him. That is good. Functionally, Guy B Likely is more debilitated (-3, 5 boxes of Physical, 6 boxes of Stun) than Guy A (Unconscious, Full Stun Track and 1 Box Physical Overflow, would be at -3, but has almost no debilitating damage) but is still alive, compared to Guy C (11 Boxes Physical, Also unconscious, Dieing, also at an ever incrementing Penalty starting at -3, will be dead soon). Guy B is capable of functioning because his armor worked as it should, at least partly (Yeah, he got lucky). The others are down. I think that is good. Obviously, you don't.

[Draco18s]

No, this is the opposite of SR4. 4 bullets: Mr-A takes takes 4 physical hits, Mr-B takes 2-2, Mr-C takes 4 stun hits.
In SR4, Mr-C is dropped, but Mr-B is *not*.
In RL, Mr-C should be the 'least dropped', not Mr-B (who took two wounds and two vest hits). I've explained this three times. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

At this point I think I'm just going to keep quoting this.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

At this point I think I'm just going to keep quoting this.

Which was addressed prior to your quote. *Shrug*

[Draco18s]

Which was addressed prior to your quote. *Shrug*

You posted while I was posting.

Guy A, B, and C all theoretically took the same amount of damage (Assume Damage equaling 11, to make the math easy (I know, poor Armor all around, but hey), and 10 Box Health Tracks (Body3)), but Guy B was able to spread it a bit to maintain functionality. Kudos for him. That is good.

Why is this a good thing?

[Irion]

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
I actually do not understand what you are arguing for or against...
Are you under the impression that somebody would drop his armor mid combat?
Do you think it is about getting the most out of the rules?

Because I see you quoting Yerameyahu and responding, but I do not get your argument...
You say it is good that the guy with an armor that prevented some bullets from perforating him is up, compared to the guy who took it all.
I can fully agree with that. But why should the guy who's armor blocked all the bullets be out? Thats the part I do not get.

[Daylen]

I've always thought when damage is staged past Stun the person takes D stun in addition to the physical damage. So if he takes 1 box of physical from a punch it would mean he passes out from taking 10 boxes of stun and his jaw is broken for the one box of physical. Seems silly for the amount of damage to go down because the punch is harder.

[Warlordtheft]

@Warlordtheft
Reduce your armor by one point (increase constitution by one if you do not want to make new numbers) and your guy keeps standing a bit longer.

Throw in some EX-EX, short bursts, more shooters at the same target or APDS and you get a different result too. SR combat is deadly with a capital D-not as bad as 2nd Ed but still pretty deadly.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
I actually do not understand what you are arguing for or against...
Are you under the impression that somebody would drop his armor mid combat?
Do you think it is about getting the most out of the rules?

Sorry, I though t I have been pretty coinsistent in my argument.
No, I am not, though that sounded like the initial concern from the OP. The issue of Yo-Yoing armor to gain the most benefit.
No. Though in some cases, the argument is there because it is somehow Unfair for that result to occur.

Because I see you quoting Yerameyahu and responding, but I do not get your argument...
You say it is good that the guy with an armor that prevented some bullets from perforating him is up, compared to the guy who took it all.
I can fully agree with that. But why should the guy who's armor blocked all the bullets be out? Thats the part I do not get.

Because the guys whose armor blocked all the bullets took a full track of stun, so he is unconscious. But, he is still very much alive and relatively unwounded, all things considered. He is less wounded than Guy B (Who has Physical Damage) and is alive compared to Guy C. But yes, he is unconscious. I am okay with that, because the model is that he took stun damage for every round that impacted his armor, rather than Physical Damage.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I've always thought when damage is staged past Stun the person takes D stun in addition to the physical damage. So if he takes 1 box of physical from a punch it would mean he passes out from taking 10 boxes of stun and his jaw is broken for the one box of physical. Seems silly for the amount of damage to go down because the punch is harder.

The punch is not harder, the body is just less resilient to the damage that it is receiving over time. You can beat someone to death with a phone book if you try hard enough, and yet no one is going to argue that a phone book is a lethal weapon.

In the topic of conversation, the complaint is that the character did not take stun, he took a couple boxes of Physical damage, and his last box of Stun is still unfilled, thus he is still conscious, and theoretically still able to react.

[Mäx]

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
I actually do not understand what you are arguing for or against...
Are you under the impression that somebody would drop his armor mid combat?
Do you think it is about getting the most out of the rules?

Because I see you quoting Yerameyahu and responding, but I do not get your argument...
You say it is good that the guy with an armor that prevented some bullets from perforating him is up, compared to the guy who took it all.
I can fully agree with that. But why should the guy who's armor blocked all the bullets be out? Thats the part I do not get.

THis so very much this.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Throw in some EX-EX, short bursts, more shooters at the same target or APDS and you get a different result too. SR combat is deadly with a capital D-not as bad as 2nd Ed but still pretty deadly.

Indeed, which is why I think the topic of conversation is irrelevant in the actual play of the game. The contention is that the Theory still stands independant of the game, but I have yet to see anyone actually claim that it has an actual, verifiable, negative impact upon their game. In fact, everyone has pretty much said it does not have such an impact. *shrug*

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

THis so very much this.

Already Answered Max... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Mäx]

Already Answered Max... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Still makes no sense (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Draco18s]

I am okay with that, because the model is that he took stun damage for every round that impacted his armor, rather than Physical Damage.

Did...did you miss the point of the argument...?

Because we said "the model is dumb" and you say "I'm ok with the model being dumb because it is the model and it is ok."

Sorry, I though t I have been pretty coinsistent in my argument.

Not really. I was almost certain you started with "the guy is fucked up and unconscious because the narrative says he should be fucked up and unconscious" and now you're at "he's not fucked up because the rules say he's not fucked up, sure he has some bleeding holes, but it's OK that he's conscious."