Physical and stun damage, Somtimes stun seems to be worse... Options

[OneTrikPony]

Ah, there we go. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) So, double-check me: Brainpiercing mentioned the WoD idea, which I feel is the most common suggestion in these threads. Bishop's is the one that actually gives the player a metagame choice every time they take damage; doesn't that seem like a basic issue to anyone else? Granted, it's a choice that exists only to fix the glitch we've been discussing… on the other hand, it's a new out-of-world choice that only exists to fix a mechanic glitch. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) That grabs me as two wrongs not making a right.

The other option proposed, of the top of my head, was revamping Physical to cause secondary Stun. Someone (and I know I repeated it) suggested something like Physical + (e.g., 1/2) Stun from P attacks, while Faraday suggested Physical (–1/2 Armor) + (1/2 Armor) Stun.

Any of these solutions could of course be tweaked by changing the length of the track(s).

Any other ideas, drawing on different RPG experience or just plain imagination? I'm personally really interested. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Hey! whatamI chopped liver? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) [just kidding]
In addition to those ideas; I proposed making physical damage more detrimental than stun damage. I realize that doesn't directly address the problem: that a character may Elect to take physical damage, (A worse result according to TJ and me), rather than stun in order to avoid unconsciousness. but I still think that physical damage from getting shot should be more scary than stun from getting punched. I'm opposed to a system where the character gets to choose what type of damage they take.

I feel that making physical damage more detrimental than stun might mitigate the problem of the system encouraging metagaming.
My ideas were:
1) Do allow a character to make a roll to remain conscious after the stun monitor is filled. But double the damage when the character takes physical damage at that point.

2) increase the modifiers for physical wounds when the stun condition monitor is full (Yerameyahu helped me realized later this was a bad idea.)

3)"A character that has received a physical wound may continue to loose boxes on the physical condition monitor. If a wound is left untreated further physical action, (like combat), or intense effort, (such as spellcasting), may cause more damage. A wounded character who rolls a test for strenuous action; Physical active skills, Combat active skills, manual piloting or Infiltration, or resists spell or conjuring drain must immediately make a Body(number of wounds) test. Failure means the character takes another box of physical damage." (It was pointed out that this is already an optional rule but I can't find it.)

Also Sponge suggested:
1. Attacks with a Physical DV that penetrate armor also do half DV in "secondary" Stun (rounded up)
2. Attacks with a Physical DV that do not penetrate armor do ONLY half DV in Stun (rounded up)
3. If an attack with a Physical DV penetrates armor, any secondary Stun does NOT overflow to Physical.

[Yerameyahu]

Interesting. Those last three together mean that Armor against 'lethal' attacks becomes much more important: it's the difference between (n Phys) + (n/2 Stun), and just (n/2 Stun); triple the damage. Does this also mean that 'non-lethal' attacks (S&S?) are now even better at efficiently taking people down? (Or does it just require numeric rejiggering to compensate?)

I can see how these fit with how we understand reality, if the 'secondary Stun' is the result of sheer sudden pain/etc. That 'shock' is much smaller without the wound (i.e., when blocked by armor), though still significant. And getting shot while you're already KOd (full Stun track) doesn't Stun you more.

On a tangent, exactly how important is the Stun-overflows-to-Physical rule to you guys? Personally, I don't see the logic. If someone's KOd, stunning attacks aren't magically going to start causing wounds (esp. for tasers!), while a KOd target is *easy* to attack with Physical methods anyway. So… what's the point of the rule? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Especially in a 'cinematic' game.

[thorya]

Not trolling... Debate.

This is very true. If you take enough damage from a single bullet stopped in your trauma plates (ie. your armor is greater than 10, and you get minimal successes, such that your Damage is still 10+), then Yes, you will go unconscious. How do you explain someone who always stops all but 1 point of damage per shot, and some go to stun, and others go to Physical? Surely this is a problem for you.

See, in my world, it is not a problem to describe some people going down from single shots on a sinble track, while others are described as taking dozens of rounds before falling (multiple tracks). That is how the world works. That is how the mechanics work. Arguing otherwise is a bit disengenuous.

Now, you may not like it that way, And I get it, but that is how it is. Saying it is not fact is actually wrong.

I suggested a Single wound track for NPCs long ago (it is, after all, a suggestion in the book). However, Since you do not like that mechanic (Split Tracks) much, what do you do for Player Characters? Though I imagine they do not complain when it is in their favor, which it will always be if you use a single track for Mooks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

You didn't actually address my question. You are talking about something else entirely. I am asking how you reconcile a short burst in the current rules. Since we have already established that a character with a lot of stun can be knocked unconscious by a single bullet caught in the armor. How in your world view does one or two of the bullets from a short burst getting through armor negate the character being knocked unconscious by the bullets caught in the armor? They've taken a serious wound (physical) alongside a less serious wound (stun) and in the abstraction of the rules this is modeled by an increase in physical damage, but it does not eliminate the disconnect where an additional injury allows a player to stay conscious. Do you also allow characters to restore consciousness to their fallen comrades by shooting or stabbing one of their bruises? Obviously, that's just a ridiculous notion, but what you have proposed and defended several times equates to that (and I know I'm crazy for pointing it out, because as you said at the beginning if something is a problem, you just ignore). But they've just taken a less serious wound (stun) and made it a more serious wound (physical) and for some reason that means a person stays conscious. I don't think that's how it works in the real world. Maybe someone with a medical background could correct me, but I think most of us are assuming that increasing pain and increasing injury means greater likelihood of blackout.

[snowRaven]

There is perspective. The World Perspective, anmd teh Player (Metagame) perspective. I say that the rules you say are inadequate in their application are in fact adequate because they work just fine. You have yet to point out a placve in teh game where it is inadequate. It is all theory to you, as you have said so many times, and the theory falls short of application, by a lot. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) They are not my own facts, they are borne out by players all over the world. None have yet to claim any IN_GAME issues. Thay have all indicated that it is theory. Theory loses to actual application.

But it DOES matter... If it never actually comes up in play, then the theory you are so proud of is invalid. You have to actually PROVE your theory, and you have yet to do so.

But it does come up in play, although it rarely happens in a circumstance that is seriously deterimental to the player characters. I've provided several examples.

Also, you agreed with me that it can be better (you even emphasized with 'certainly') for the defender to divide the damage between different tracks so he or she can remain standing and get away or shoot back. If this result is somehow better for the defender, then it MUST be worse for the attacker.

But, I will ask this? Are you saying that it is not BAD for your armor to be penetrated? IT IS BAD. Would a new term fit better for you? How about Possibly Fatal? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The randomness of damage is EXACTLY what we are talking about. Sometiimes it is Stun, and other times it is Physical. It is random, based on several factors, one of which is the effectiveness of the shooter. And yes, Half and Half damage is Entirely Intentional, otherwise you would not have 2 damage tracks. It has always been that way in Shadowrun. it is not new to 4th Edition.

No, but the mechanics involving when you take stun and when you take physical has changed over the years, and it is only in SR4 that my group has observed the scenario of 'more hits(performing better)'='less desirable result(opponent can keep shooting at you)'.

I don't understand how you can seriously argue that 'everything works as intended' when there are situations where increasing your skill or shooting more bullets give you LESS chance of staying upright and fighting in combat.

The 'random factor' is provided by the dice - if you take away the dice and trade dice for successes instead, giving 'fixed' results, you would expect a curve where higher skill always means better performance against the same circumstances.

You claim that Physical damage is objectively worse than Stun, yet there are clearly many situations where it can be better to take physical damage.
- If you have a skilled healing mage handy he can have you ready for another combat faster than you can heal the stun.
- If you are Bubba the heavy troll and fall unconscious due to stun damage during a retreat, it would've been better to take physical damage, because you would've had a greater chance of escape/survival/success.
- If you have Platelet Factories.
- If you have a medkit on hand but no friends.
- If you yourself know the Heal spell.
- If you are nearly passed out from fatigue, but in desperate need of summoning a spirit, and not likely to soak all drain (and don't go on about 'in-game, characters wouldn't know..' or 'in-game, characters wouldn't choose overcasting'. A mage with experience will know if he's too tired for another summoning, and he'll know that if he summons and passes out he won't get what he needs. He'll know that if he pushes himself he can stay awake, but get a bad nosebleed.')
...to name a few.

Regardless of the situation you are in, would you consider these situations 'good' or 'bad':
- Being captured by police.
- Escaping capture.
- Being unconscious in a fight.
- Being able to attack your assailant in a fight.

Which is worse:
- Being wounded and bleeding in a hospital.
- Being unconscious.


And as for your claim that inflicting Physical damage on someone is Always Objectively better than stun...why? Why would you care if your opponent stays in a hospital for 2 weeks, or wakes up with a headache after an hour? Why would that matter in the least to the attacker?

When the drek hits the fan and your character ends up in combat, do you honestly care how long it takes the security guards to recover from their wounds beyond 'long enough for me to not be here'?

Assuming you have decided to go in for lethal attacks (for whatever reason - maybe you're fighting off bounty hunters who have a mission to kill you), and your character shoots at two security guards: you hit the first and do not penetrate armor, but manage to knock him out in one hit. You hit the second and you can see blood from his gut, but he stands and shoots back at you. Is your immediate response:
- Yes, I knocked one of them out; too bad the other guy still stands. OR
- Yes, I did physical damage to one; pity the other one only got stun - I wanted to kill him...

Which result is objectively better? The unconscious non-injured opponent, or the bleeding opponent shooting at you?

[snowRaven]

On a tangent, exactly how important is the Stun-overflows-to-Physical rule to you guys? Personally, I don't see the logic. If someone's KOd, stunning attacks aren't magically going to start causing wounds (esp. for tasers!), while a KOd target is *easy* to attack with Physical methods anyway. So… what's the point of the rule? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Especially in a 'cinematic' game.

Well, keep tasering the unconscious guy and he'll likely havve a heart attack or start smoking eventually...

Keep punching him and he'll die.

If you didn't have that rule, you could never kick or punch or bludgeon or even strangle someone to death without changing other rules. Nort could you die from ODing on drugs etc. You could cast ridiculously draining spells, knocking yourself out with no care in the world.

I'd say the rule is necessary.

[Yerameyahu]

If the taser would cause a heart attack, it would've caused it on the first hit with equal probability. It's not cumulative, AFAIK.

No, see that's my point. Once they're unconscious, it's pretty easy to choose a 'lethal' attack. Strangling is an issue (though one best handled by specific asphyxiation rules), but I'm not convinced that a 'stun punch' would ever reasonably become lethal (and certainly not instantly!). Instead, you'd just use something with a P DV, probably with Called Shots now that he can't resist. I guess what bothers me is the magic conversion from stun to physical; to me, a given attack would either break a rib, or *not*, and it shouldn't matter if the subject happens to have his eyes open.

I wouldn't call being KOd from a spell 'no care in the world'. The drug example is good, though; many nonlethal drugs get lethal.

However, most of these examples seem to be outside my question: I asked about attacks, not every possible source of Stun damage. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I guess that's one answer, though! 'It's not for attacks, it's for all the non-attack things'.

[OneTrikPony]

On a tangent, exactly how important is the Stun-overflows-to-Physical rule to you guys? Personally, I don't see the logic. If someone's KOd, stunning attacks aren't magically going to start causing wounds (esp. for tasers!), while a KOd target is *easy* to attack with Physical methods anyway. So… what's the point of the rule? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Especially in a 'cinematic' game.

Stun becoming physical damage is pretty important to me. (It just doesn't do a very good job of representing what i experience IRL.)
Example; Boxing, I'm an amateur boxer. Several months ago I took a pretty good liver shot. It didn't drop me but came damn close. It hurt me bad enough that when I got my blood tested (for another problem relating to a work accident), my liver enzymes were elevated enough that It looked like I had hepatitis. That's real physical damage from a stun attack that is taking me Months to recover.

Other posts in this thread have lumped Concussion in with stun damage. I wasn't going to say anything, but I disagree with that. TBE is physical damage. Getting KOed should over flow into physical damage. I've been knocked out at work and (once) knocked out in the ring, I can guarantee that is physical damage. I've also passed out working concrete and passed out after a set of squats I'd classify that as Stun. There's a very big difference and thats why I think physical damage should do some stun and Stun damage should overflow.

(it's not germane to this thread but probably lot's of hits on a stun attack, like a broken nose/jaw or liver shot, should transfer to physical instead of stun damage)

[Yerameyahu]

Yeah, I guess I'm just running up against the limits of an abstract system that has 'Stun' at all. Because to me, an attack that does physical damage is not a Stun attack in the first place. If it hurt your liver, that wasn't Stun. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) And if it was going to inflict that injury, it wouldn't matter if you were awake or not, see? So, I agree: ideally there'd be a simple way for powerful, but supposedly 'Stun', attacks to 'stage up' to Physical. Maybe something like 'more raw damage than Body'? You'd have to play with the numbers and see what made sense.

But basically, it's the fact that Stun attacks (identical to previous Stun attacks) suddenly start doing *lethal* damage based on whether the target is awake or not. :/

[OneTrikPony]

But basically, it's the fact that Stun attacks (identical to previous Stun attacks) suddenly start doing *lethal* damage based on whether the target is awake or not. :/

Maybe. In some situations this is how it would work.
On the other hand you smack a guy in the head enough and that damage builds up till instead of just minor bruising he pops an artery and has an anurism. A skater or snowboarder muffs a maneuver several times. At first it just hurts the last time he needs a new MCL in is knee.
A solder keeps taking shots to his rifle plate and eventually that rib is going to dislocate from his spine.
I'm not fighting or sparring right now cause I need this liver for at least another 60 years.

I think there is a case for damage that would be relatively easy to heal building till you've got something that's going to need surgery and might kill ya.

Stun overflowing into physical doen't happen because the target is unconscious. Going to sleep is just a common side effect of being hurt pretty bad. The problem mostly goes away if you give characters the option to stay awake with a serious effort. In that case mages who would take physical damage from drain might not waste their last 2 boxes of stun by choosing to overcast. And you might not worry about switching ammo when you're fighting that FRT trooper cause he might just be tough enough to keep going.

[Yerameyahu]

Yeah, the problem is definitely the abstractness of Stun. Because you could have stun from fatigue, a taser, a toxin or drug, Drain, and then the *first* smack is now Physical. In rules terms, it *is* because you're asleep. (Just to be clear, for TJ: when I say 'problem', I'm not saying it's a dire, gameplay issue. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) )

[OneTrikPony]

NO! It IS a Dire gameplay issue. It RUINS the game and MUST be modified to suit my world view. and Tymeaus Jalynsfe will NEVER change my mind No mater How LONG his posts become! :[
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Haha just kidding.

IDK that stun overflows to physical because the target is unconscious. Seems it could be that happens because the defender is no longer capable of defending but that's covered by the fact that you can't make a dodge or parry to stage down damage when you're sleeping. I think stun overflow represents that after a certain point any damage is a serious injury because you're hurt so badly allready. In my mind, stun overflow and unconsciousness are simultaneous but not directly related.

[Faraday]

I think you guys are missing part of the damage mechanic when it comes to "bad things" that happen because of stun damage. Keep in mind that most people today do not wear any form of armor but often withstand similar amounts of force as someone 70 years from now. A bullet is a bullet, a ladder falling on your head is still a ladder to the head, but most of the time, you've only got your BODY stat to resist that.

So what, you've got 2, 3, MAYBE 4 dice most of the time?

How often will you glitch on that dice pool, hm?

[Yerameyahu]

I don't follow you. I'm only looking at the way SR4 models accumulated Stun (which, I understand, is necessarily abstract).

For 'lethal' attacks being affected by armor, I kind of feel like the fact that a KOd target can no longer dodge is enough; the attacker's net hits would rise enough to ensure P damage (fine, and no overflow rule needed). For non-lethal attacks, I'm still not convinced.

I think stun overflow represents that after a certain point any damage is a serious injury because you're hurt so badly allready.

I think you're right, and I don't think *that* is right. Why should 'any damage' now be serious?

But, I feel like it would require a pretty major overhaul to deal with this, because of the many various things that all do Stun (in totally different ways). I just wanted to see what people thought. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Honestly, it never comes up in games because 'dropped' already equals 'dead or worse'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

NO! It IS a Dire gameplay issue. It RUINS the game and MUST be modified to suit my world view. and Tymeaus Jalynsfe will NEVER change my mind No mater How LONG his posts become! :[
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Haha just kidding.

IDK that stun overflows to physical because the target is unconscious. Seems it could be that happens because the defender is no longer capable of defending but that's covered by the fact that you can't make a dodge or parry to stage down damage when you're sleeping. I think stun overflow represents that after a certain point any damage is a serious injury because you're hurt so badly allready. In my mind, stun overflow and unconsciousness are simultaneous but not directly related.

But Unconsciousness is not the same as Sleeping. If someone is sleepng, with an unmarked Stun track, and you hit them with a Stun based attack, they do not take Physical Damage, they take stun damage. Only when the Stun track is full does it overflow into Physical, so Stun Overflow to Physical Damage already represents something else entirely. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

I was using it as a euphemism, but that is a point: stun overflow isn't because you can't move, as OneTrikPony also said. I'm not sure *what* it's representing, given that someone knocked out by anesthesia *does* have a full stun track and takes instant Phys damage from anything that touches them.

[Draco18s]

I was using it as a euphemism, but that is a point: stun overflow isn't because you can't move, as OneTrikPony also said. I'm not sure *what* it's representing, given that someone knocked out by anesthesia *does* have a full stun track and takes instant Phys damage from anything that touches them.

I almost think we need two types of stun. Physical and Emotio-chemical.*

Physical stun is someone punching you in the face, taking a bullet to your armor, gel rounds, tazers, etc. Things that inflict actual pain. The other track is filled by drugs, chemicals, poisons, or mental damage (Black Ice, some types of spells, etc.).

If either of these tracks are full, you fall unconscious. This doesn't have the problem of the "take a bullet and bleed = stay conscious, take a bullet and don't bleed = unconscious" issue because they're different kinds of knock-out. The first is something is physically wrong, but it's not lethal (typically). E.g. concussion, massive bruising. The second is all chemical based. E.g. sleeping pills, emotional exhaustion, stayed-up-all-night-gaming/working/partying, etc. That is, taking a lot of sleeping pills, but not enough to knock you out, and then getting punched isn't going to knock you cold: you're going to be awake, have a lot of difficulty DOING anything. You might fall down as the effort of standing up is too great, but you'll still be awake.

The chemical-stun can overflow into physical stun and represents a severe overdose on whatever chemical cocktail happens to be coursing through your blood (and before anyone says that staying up too late can't kill you: actually, it can. It takes "not sleeping" for like 3 weeks (for humans)** but it is possible) and starts causing actual physical damage to your organs. I'd allow some kind of...Body + Willpower test (possibly with no penalties from the chemical-stun track) to stay conscious each round after overflow occurs as a "I can power through this, I can power through this..." kind of thing. Full physical stun though you can't, as you've got actual brain damage going on (bruising, etc.) and your body shuts down, whether you want it to or not.

*The "I feel beat" type of being emotionally, socially, or mentally drained. Their all forms of exhaustion that is related to a chemical imbalance in the brain.

**Bullshit value. I know it's about 7 days for rats, I'm pretty sure there haven't been any laboratory tests with human subjects to see how long until the body dies from a lack of sleep. That whole...ethics thing.

[CanRay]

*The "I feel beat" type of being emotionally, socially, or mentally drained. Their all forms of exhaustion that is related to a chemical imbalance in the brain.

So, clinical depression and stress also count as Stun Damage.

...

I can see that.

[Warlordtheft]

Insanity- Doing the same thing and expecting a different result.

Oh well, guess I'm insane. I'll keep feeding the troll.

The rules as applied also leads to the fun result where you are more likely to go unconscious from a single bullet that is stopped in your armor than three bullets, some of which get through your armor and some of which don't. Is there ever a situation where that makes sense?

Three bullets bounce off your helmet, ringing your bell, causing in SR terms stun damage. 1 Bullet goes through the armpit, bypassing any armor they have, it can happen. Problem with the detail you mention is basically a more realistic result where each bullet is tracked and if it bypasses armor. As it stands the 3 shot burst (or 6 shot long burst), are treated as hitting the same area.

You could of course bypass this and state that the extra damage from a burst counts towards if the shot causes stun or physical damage (this would make the game deadlier) or just assume P weapons cause P damage regardless of the armor rating. The problem with having an attack cause both stun and physical damage within the system is that is will quickly lead to a PC or NPC suffering a -4 DP mods for stun and physical damage. This would reduce the persons dodge pool at an above RAW rate, and result in PC's and NPC's dying quicker on the next shot. Worth the added complexity? IMHO-no the game is deadly enough.

[CanRay]

Two bullets bounce off your helmet, ringing your bell, causing in SR terms stun damage. 1 Bullet goes through the armpit, bypassing any armor they have. It happens.

*Ping, Bullet bounces off helmet* "You must be the luckiest SOB alive!" *Ping, bullet goes through helmet into brain* - Saving Private Ryan

[Draco18s]

*Ping, Bullet bounces off helmet* "You must be the luckiest SOB alive!" *Ping, bullet goes through helmet into brain* - Saving Private Ryan

Actually, didn't he take his helmet off to ogle in amazement that the helmet actually did it's job for once?

So, clinical depression and stress also count as Stun Damage.

...

I can see that.

Technically speaking yes, although I'm not suggesting that the game model it.* I was looking for a way to differentiate between a drug crash and being punched in the face. The two do different things to the body.

*Although I could see a spell called Depression that adds to that emotio-chemical track. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[CanRay]

Actually, didn't he take his helmet off to ogle in amazement that the helmet actually did it's job for once?

Helmets were designed at the time (And today even) to protect against shrapnel, not actual bullet hits. Especially against rifle rounds. Thus the "Lucky" comment. I can't remember if he had it back on or not for the second shot. It's been a long time since I saw the movie.

Technically speaking yes, although I'm not suggesting that the game model it.* I was looking for a way to differentiate between a drug crash and being punched in the face. The two do different things to the body.

*Although I could see a spell called Depression that adds to that emotio-chemical track. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

"Um, why are all the security guards in corners crying?" "It's better than shooting them, and we'll cost the Corporation a fortune in benefits due to the psychological damage I just did to them. It was either that, or Orgasm." "Good choice."

[Yerameyahu]

Yeah, Draco18s. I'm not too willing to make the game more complicated, so I do understand why all those many things are still 'Stun'.

However, perhaps it would be possible to separate out (some) drug/toxin stun effects into something more like Disorientation, Agony, etc. (you know, the 'status conditions' used by various things already). Hmm.

Warlordtheft, I think you have to compare the 3-burst hitting the same spot as the 1-shot, though.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

**Bullshit value. I know it's about 7 days for rats, I'm pretty sure there haven't been any laboratory tests with human subjects to see how long until the body dies from a lack of sleep. That whole...ethics thing.

Anecdotal, I know, but I went just over 5 days, when I was in the Gulf, with no Sleep. Boy was that not fun. Would not want to do it again. Started having hallucinations there towards the end.

[CanRay]

Anecdotal, I know, but I went just over 5 days, when I was in the Gulf, with no Sleep. Boy was that not fun. Would not want to do it again. Started having hallucinations there towards the end.

And you had a rifle. Fun.

Glad you're home safe!

[Draco18s]

Yeah, Draco18s. I'm not too willing to make the game more complicated, so I do understand why all those many things are still 'Stun'.

Yeah. I know. But I'd merge it with the Matrix Condition Track, honestly.

I understand why the matrix has it's own track, but I'd do it for two reasons:

1) The hacker's "stress" level more than his progams' integrity (honestly, this never made much sense to me). The track getting filled would be more of a "panic logoff" ("oh god, oh god, oh god, log off! Log off!") than an "oops, your icon crashed" type deal. And again be subject to the same body roll for staying conscious after a drug overdose.
Heck, it'd actually lead to more realistic scenarios, rather than the hacker going "oh well" and logging back in for another try the next round, he has to spend 5 minutes or whatever cooling off and calming down before heading back in.

2) Technomancers. I dislike that technos don't have a matrix monitor, and use their stun track. It's like they're hacking when everything that they face off against is Black IC and they don't get their biofeedback filters against it (honestly, they might fare better against Black IC than against attack programs!).

Anecdotal, I know, but I went just over 5 days, when I was in the Gulf, with no Sleep. Boy was that not fun. Would not want to do it again. Started having hallucinations there towards the end.

Yeah, 5 days will do that to people. I've done 30 or so. My sister's done 63.