Physical and stun damage, Somtimes stun seems to be worse... Options

[Yerameyahu]

Oh, that's a great point. When I read your post, I didn't even notice the Matrix damage aspect. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) That indeed is the clearest differentiation of 'mental damage'. I guess that goes back to previous editions, where matrix damage actually *was* based on your gear? You're right that the biofeedback aspect probably never made sense to *not* be stun.

You've been awake for 30 days? Come on. :/

[CanRay]

Don't forget Dumpshock!

I hit the Hacker in my group with that so many times that he started bleeding from the eyes. After that, he said, "Screw you guys, I'm going to bed!"

He also needed new boots, and suffered the worst case of dry heaves in the history of our group. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif) And, he had to admit, all legit reasons.

[Yerameyahu]

Hmm. So there's lethal wounds (Phys), nonlethal wounds (maybe misnamed 'Stun'), systemic damage (some diseases, drugs, and toxins), damage to *programs* (Matrix), mental (dumpshock, Black IC, Drain, drugs). And there are 3 damage tracks: Physical, Stun, and Matrix. Right? I'm just trying to remember everything we're working with here. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) I'm deliberately leaving out emotional stuff, that's for Eclipse Phase.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

And you had a rifle. Fun.

Glad you're home safe!

Heh... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Yeah. Thanks. Been a real long time away from that, fortunately.

[Draco18s]

Oh, that's a great point. When I read your post, I didn't even notice the Matrix damage aspect. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) That indeed is the clearest differentiation of 'mental damage'. I guess that goes back to previous editions, where matrix damage actually *was* based on your gear? You're right that the biofeedback aspect probably never made sense to *not* be stun.

I know that in previous editions there was White IC (hurts the programs), Gray IC (hurts the hardware), and Black IC (hurts you).
But I don't recall the mechanics. Also, I only ever played 3E, and only once or twice.

If we really wanted to, we could subsume the hacker's other tracks during the hack. Physical damage is damage to the rigger's body. Stun is damage to the rigger's hardware. Stress damage is still stress.
[Warning, hypothetical]
What would happen is that if the rigger's stun track fills, his hardware is fried, has to repair it (takes dumpshock: erase stun track and fill in new stun). Cost of repairs is some value and takes some amount of time (not getting specific here, as this is just hypothetical).
When the rigger's physical track fills, he falls unconscious. Erase any stun (trivial damage to the hardware; burn fuses, nothing critical, and can be ignored), move physical track/overflow into the stun track/overflow to physical. Take dumpshock.
When the rigger's stress track fills he performs a panic-logout and has to spend a few minutes shaking it off. Physical damage moves to stun (hardware "stun" is ignored, see above), and the hacker starts making mental healing tests (undefined, hypothetical dice pool) until his stress track is reduced enough that the hacker decides to make another attempt.

You've been awake for 30 days? Come on. :/

Hours. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/indifferent.gif)
Did I not specify a unit?
Apparently not.

Hmm. So there's lethal wounds (Phys), nonlethal wounds (maybe misnamed 'Stun'), systemic damage (some diseases, drugs, and toxins), damage to *programs* (Matrix), mental (dumpshock, Black IC, Drain, drugs). And there are 3 damage tracks: Physical, Stun, and Matrix. Right? I'm just trying to remember everything we're working with here. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) I'm deliberately leaving out emotional stuff, that's for Eclipse Phase.

That's why I called it "emotio-chemcial." Emotions are just chemical and electrical impulses in the brain (which can be upset/tweaked by a chemical imbalanced, e.g. Happy Pills). *Way to clinical about this*
But ostensibly you are correct. I just wouldn't use all *five* at the same time. No more than three. I'd merge metal damage in with systemic damage, as they overlap heavily (drugs) and drop Matrix damage entirely.

[Yerameyahu]

I agree that emotional is chemical, but I still think it can be conceptually ignored for our purposes. Otherwise, mages get a *new* more irresistible sadbolt. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[CanRay]

I agree that emotional is chemical, but I still think it can be conceptually ignored for our purposes. Otherwise, mages get a *new* more irresistible sadbolt. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

"I call it them EMO RAY!"

[Draco18s]

I agree that emotional is chemical, but I still think it can be conceptually ignored for our purposes. Otherwise, mages get a *new* more irresistible sadbolt. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Or stun bolt becomes the "emotional"-damage spell *shrug*

Another thing to consider is the dice pool penalties from more tracks. I almost want to make the emotio-chemical track (we have a good name for this one yet?) only have negatives "half" as often (i.e. every 6 boxes) as generally speaking, "being sad" has less effect on your general performance than having a concussion.

Hmm. Actually. [Hypothetical numbers]

Physical is every 3 boxes (bleeding HURTS).
Stun is every 4 (being punched sucks, but you can ignore it more than that broken arm)
Emotio-chemical is every 5? (being sad is a little depressing, but you can work through it).

I'd also want to rework how armor stops bullets, but I'd have to mull that one over (i.e. avoid the 6 DV -> stun, 7 DV -> physical issue). Get closer to bullets causing stun most of the time, but in small amounts, but penetration SUCKS.

Actually. Just had a thought.

If the modified DV is not greater than the armor value, then resist stun equal to the net hits (ignoring the base DV*). A bullet or two that penetrate will down you, almost all the time, but an armor impact hurts significantly less.

So it moves from a "fuck, that +1 net hit means he takes physical, now he's still standing" to a significant boon, pushing the game over into a "physical damage bullets SUCK ASS, all the time" because you're going to be taking 4, 5, or 6 more damage before rolling the resist roll.

Means we'd have to rein in armor stacking, so you can't get 18+ armor, but we need to be doing that anyway.

*Alternatively, the reverse. Resist stun equal to only the base DV.

[Yerameyahu]

The last one I saw was that (n Phys) versus (n Phys + n/2 Stun), which is quite similar to what you just suggested. It comes down largely to simplicity, of course.

I think I prefer your last point: only bullet makes more sense to me than only net hits. I think the net hits thing could produce odd variation, where you drop people with really accurate DV1 attacks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Draco18s]

The last one I saw was that (n Phys) versus (n Phys + n/2 Stun), which is quite similar to what you just suggested. It comes down largely to simplicity, of course.

True.

I think I prefer your last point: only bullet makes more sense to me than only net hits. I think the net hits thing could produce odd variation, where you drop people with really accurate DV1 attacks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Hmm. Good point.

[Irion]

I think halft the "normal" damage is a better choice.
Afterall, a holdout does not have the punch of an assault cannon.

But with all those rules it should be considered, that physical damage gets a lot more lethal.
(If you are passed out the physical damage would be increased by 50%. And you will have a nearly full stun monitor to go with your phsical monitor. So it won't be uncommon to be left with 3 boxes in physical and 1 in stun. So if a last bullet hits you for 8 physical you (you soaking 2) you will be down to 0 Stun and -5.

As a matter of fact, I would rule that with a filled stun track, you take 1 phyisical for every 2 stun.

Thats why I liked the singe monitor, because you passed out faster, but the shot which brought you down was much less likely to kill you.

[Draco18s]

But with all those rules it should be considered, that physical damage gets a lot more lethal.

And?

I'm also not in favor of n P + 1/2 n S, just because of the overflow condition. Attacks against unconscious targets are 50% more lethal, not because they're unresponsive (i.e. not dodging) but because their stun track is full.

[Yerameyahu]

No, that case was specifically excepted. Here, I'll quote it:

Also Sponge suggested:
1. Attacks with a Physical DV that penetrate armor also do half DV in "secondary" Stun (rounded up)
2. Attacks with a Physical DV that do not penetrate armor do ONLY half DV in Stun (rounded up)
3. If an attack with a Physical DV penetrates armor, any secondary Stun does NOT overflow to Physical.

[CanRay]

Or stun bolt becomes the "emotional"-damage spell *shrug*

Stun spells are often called "Sleep" spells according to the book, so, it encourages nappy time.

[Yerameyahu]

Hehe, except they cause/allow overflow into lethal wounds. 'Sleep' indeed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[thorya]

Hehe, except they cause/allow overflow into lethal wounds. 'Sleep' indeed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

For in that sleep of death, what dreams may come.

[CanRay]

You can die if you sleep too soundly. One step too far into Wonderland, and...

[Draco18s]

Hehe, except they cause/allow overflow into lethal wounds. 'Sleep' indeed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Brilliant!

[Sponge]

Actually, didn't he take his helmet off to ogle in amazement that the helmet actually did it's job for once?

It was really because his stun track was almost full from the first shot, and he didn't want to risk another bullet to the helmet knocking him out (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Draco18s]

It was really because his stun track was almost full from the first shot, and he didn't want to risk another bullet to the helmet knocking him out (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

*Snorts* XD

[Yerameyahu]

HAHAHA!

[Falanin]

Oh man... callback joke... to the ENTIRE THREAD. So much win.

[snowRaven]

It was really because his stun track was almost full from the first shot, and he didn't want to risk another bullet to the helmet knocking him out (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

[CanRay]

Hehe, except they cause/allow overflow into lethal wounds. 'Sleep' indeed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

It looks like he went into... *Puts on Mirrorshades*... The Big Sleep.

YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!

[bobbaganoosh]

As it is, the current damage system isn't too realistic, with everything that isn't Physical in nature lumped into a generic "Stun" category (aside from Matrix damage, that is). This isn't too realistic. However, is adding more types of damage, and corresponding condition monitors, the best way to fix this issue? "The simplest solution is always the best", right?