Physical and stun damage, Somtimes stun seems to be worse... Options

[Yerameyahu]

Typically, the beginning of that saying is 'all things being equal, …', and it's 'likely the best', not 'always'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Still, we already have 3 tracks if you count Matrix, so, I was mostly asking if we could re-distribute the various damages I listed into the existing 3, or even reduce the numbers (the WoD-type ideas have 1 track, and technically at least 3 kinds of damage). You're right that the total degree of complexity matters a lot.

I'm still kind of interested in the quoted bit attributed to Sponge, which alters the basic (P+1/2 S) idea in two interesting ways (less stun from 'failed' lethal attacks, and no stun overflow from 'successful' lethal attacks). I'm going to give it some thought and play with the numbers. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Not too much added complexity, either.

[Sponge]

I'm still kind of interested in the quoted bit attributed to Sponge, which alters the basic (P+1/2 S) idea in two interesting ways (less stun from 'failed' lethal attacks, and no stun overflow from 'successful' lethal attacks). I'm going to give it some thought and play with the numbers. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Not too much added complexity, either.

The intent is that it "correctly" orders the 3 victims: Victim A who takes 4 shots past armor (P damage), Victim B who takes 2 shots on armor (S damage) and 2 shots past, and Victim C who takes all 4 shots on armor. Victim A is going to keel over from Physical damage before the extra stun will really matter (although he may end up with extra wound penalties along the way - nothing a stim patch won't help though (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ), Victim B still ends up with about the same amount of damage to both tracks as in the RAW case, and Victim C is a lot better off (having only taken about half the stun damage previously), and (with P and S tracks roughly equal) ends up being the last man standing as the bullet barrage continues.

However I admit I'm a little concerned about super-armored tanklike characters being even harder to take down with those house rules, at least with bullets - but they're supposed to be. Of course there's still SnS, stunbolts, and other means to hit the Stun track directly.

As I said originally, untested. I may try it out soon in our games, though. If anyone wants to try it out, I'm curious to hear the results.

[Yerameyahu]

Yeah, I like the sound of it. It bears testing. If it requires changes to DV levels in general (or AP?), that's just what it requires. It has interesting consequences for S&S, as well; if you're likely to beat armor, S&S is worse, but if you're not, it's twice as good as before. If anything, this exacerbates the issue of S&S making small guns better and big guns worse… so, another thing to watch for when testing. (Shotgun-only S&S still works fine, though.) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It correctly makes flechette even weaker against armored enemies, instead of doing lots of Stun. And so on, various consequences.

Interesting, anyway.

[Midas]

Like TJ, I do not really see a problem with a mixture of P and S damage making it harder to take down the opposition, that's just the way the mechanic is, and if it "penalizes" PCs for making cardboard cutout characters with monster DPs, so much the better. Actually, if the GM is doing his job properly, NPC B (who if you recall took 1 S hit and 1 P hit, while his buddies A and C were dropped respectively by 2 S hits and 2 P hits) is going to be surrendering/trying to retreat pretty sharpish unless his Professional rating is through the roof, or he knows surrender means a cap to the brainpan.

Neither do I have a problem with Thorya's example of a mage overcasting to take down the remaining mooks in a do-or-die situation, like he said himself he had to be damn sure they went down else he and his sammie buddy would be dead.

If anything, the problem is how ridiculously easy it is to heal up P damage by use of the Heal spell and/or use of a R6 medkit, at least as far as PCs are concerned. IRL if you take a bullet to the gut, you are not going to be doing anything other than try and stop the bloodflow and hightail it (alright, TJ, stagger) to the hospital. IRL nobody wants to take a bullet to the gut because even if you survive you are going to have to face a lengthy rehabilitation and may never be the same again.

In SR, you can get shot to pieces then made whole again with a wave of the wand and a bleep of the tricorder. It is this that makes PCs worry about S damage and shrug their shoulders at P, which as TJ says should be far worse. Perhaps house rules to make the heal spell take hours rather than combat turns (with the recipient immobile the whole time), and to make medkits only stabilize P wounds rather than heal them might make players far more leery of taking P damage ...

[The Jake]

BAD THINGS happen to your character while unconscious. Bad things...

I've been showing my fellow PCs how bad Stick-n-Shock and Stunbolts can be. There is no arguing now. Unconscious can be every bit as bad as dead. The difference is that you may live, wishing that you weren't...

- J.

[Yerameyahu]

that's just the way the mechanic is, and if it "penalizes" PCs for making cardboard cutout characters with monster DPs, so much the better

You can't argue that the mechanic is okay because 'that's the way it is'. And 'monster DPs' have zero bearing on this; if anything, such a character will always beat Armor anyway. If anyone is penalized, it's 'normal' characters.

[OneTrikPony]

If anything, the problem is how ridiculously easy it is to heal up P damage by use of the Heal spell and/or use of a R6 medkit, at least as far as PCs are concerned. IRL if you take a bullet to the gut, you are not going to be doing anything other than try and stop the bloodflow and hightail it (alright, TJ, stagger) to the hospital. IRL nobody wants to take a bullet to the gut because even if you survive you are going to have to face a lengthy rehabilitation and may never be the same again.

In SR, you can get shot to pieces then made whole again with a wave of the wand and a bleep of the tricorder. It is this that makes PCs worry about S damage and shrug their shoulders at P, which as TJ says should be far worse. Perhaps house rules to make the heal spell take hours rather than combat turns (with the recipient immobile the whole time), and to make medkits only stabilize P wounds rather than heal them might make players far more leery of taking P damage ...

This ^ Exactly.
I don't think that it's the whole problem but it's more than 60% of the problem. Healing should take longer. Magical healing should not be so, effective and medkits shouldn't heal damage they should just stop bleeding. Bleeding should be modeled as I've mentioned above.

Make P damage more scare and more cumbersome. Make it hurt more than stun.

[Draco18s]

This ^ Exactly.
I don't think that it's the whole problem but it's more than 60% of the problem. Healing should take longer. Magical healing should not be so, effective and medkits shouldn't heal damage they should just stop bleeding. Bleeding should be modeled as I've mentioned above.

It's an issue, certainly, but I'm not sure how to address it.

Make P damage more scare and more cumbersome. Make it hurt more than stun.

See comment about the DP penalties for the different tracks; 1/3 for physical, 1/4 for stun, 1/5 for chemical.

[Yerameyahu]

It's true that we're dealing with a few interacting systems, so we might imagine getting similar results by tweaking any one of them. However, adjusting healing rates simply doesn't specifically address the weird 'half-and-half lets you stay standing longer' issue. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I fully agree that P damage should be more debilitating (like Draco18s' suggestion) *and* harder to heal, but those issues are actually less directly tied to that specific issue. … We should do all three. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Can we talk more about this 'chemical' type, Draco? If we're saying being drugged is *less* disorienting (per box) than bruises, does that mean you'd have to dramatically increase the number of boxes a typical chemical effect inflicts? Because drugs and toxins are pretty disorienting. Or, are you presuming coincident 'status effects' like Agony, Electricity's -2, etc.? (Effectively 10 boxes!, without actually KOing you.) Personally, I think more drugs should have such effects, but it's tough to make their magnitude fair.

[Draco18s]

Can we talk more about this 'chemical' type, Draco? If we're saying being drugged is *less* disorienting (per box) than bruises, does that mean you'd have to dramatically increase the number of boxes a typical chemical effect inflicts? Because drugs and toxins are pretty disorienting. Or, are you presuming coincident 'status effects' like Agony, Electricity's -2, etc.? (Effectively 10 boxes!, without actually KOing you.)

I was referring to my "emotio-chemical" track.

In any case, it's something that could be looked at. -1 per 5 boxes might not've been the original idea (I forget) and I'm not set on that number. I also never defined how many boxes that track has.

[Yerameyahu]

I know what it is, I'm just asking more about how it works. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) In theory, ideally, etc.

[Draco18s]

I know what it is, I'm just asking more about how it works. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) In theory, ideally, etc.

I'd probably have to sit down and fiddle with it. Just based on thinking about it driving home (in no particular order):

1) -1 per 5 "feels right" for various reasons, not the least of which is removing incentives to cast "Depress" and making people sad. The penalties per damage box are low, and filling the track doesn't remove someone from the fight.
2) -1 per 5 "feels wrong" due to the level of damage required to have a significant effect on someone (although I disagree with the electrical damage comparison, as that is stun, which is significantly more painful).
3) subset of the above: being almost drop-dead-drunk is about as bad of a distraction as having been shot in the leg (give or take). Should it be?
4) considered altering it to -1 per 2, and reducing various numbers such that the track can be 10 boxes long, but be "effectively" a 2:1 with stun (that is, 2 stun == 4 chemical) and adjusting damage numbers down for that track (although, then we get to issues of the damage resist rolls, etc.)

[Yerameyahu]

I wasn't comparing it to Electrical, I was just illustrating what I meant by 'status effects'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Draco18s]

I wasn't comparing it to Electrical, I was just illustrating what I meant by 'status effects'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Oh oh.
Well, I was presuming that existent status effects would remain (such as electricity's -2), but that the "chemical" damage would be instead of the stun damage.

Which would be "disorienting" level (a -1 or a -2) rather than debilitating (a -3 or -4).

[Yerameyahu]

So, let's break it down a little bit. In Eclipse Phase, for example, there is actually a mental/emotional 'condition track' that parallels that of the physical body (no P/S distinction, let's ignore that). Under that system, you suffer 'Stress' from various stressors, which impose penalties on your performance. So far, so good. But the aspect I'm unclear on is how exactly the chemical side of 'emotio-chemical' comes in. Are we saying that drugs (chemicals, including toxins) always affect *that* track, or might they inflict Stun (or even Phys)? Because being sad and being drunk are different mostly in degree (a largish degree, maybe), but being mad and being Narcojected are pretty different (not to mention Cyanide).

I'm not saying 'you said this and you're wrong and dumb', I'm just checking these points with you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Personally, I'd be cool with chemicals being able to inflict any of these kinds.

[Draco18s]

But the aspect I'm unclear on is how exactly the chemical side of 'emotio-chemical' comes in. Are we saying that drugs (chemicals, including toxins) always affect *that* track, or might they inflict Stun (or even Phys)? Because being sad and being drunk are different mostly in degree (a largish degree, maybe), but being mad and being Narcojected are pretty different (not to mention Cyanide).

I'm not saying 'you said this and you're wrong and dumb', I'm just checking these points with you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Personally, I'd be cool with chemicals being able to inflict any of these kinds.

It'd depend on the drug. Knock-out drugs, recreational drugs (of which alcohol and tobacco are two), and some others would effect this track.

It's for those things that aren't directly causing physical harm to your body (at least, not in the single-dose increments, ignoring long term effects, such as cancer and liver damage).

There's probably going to be a few substances for which the track isn't as clear cut (all I can think of at the moment is Mustard Gas*), but a lot of our "not supposed to kill you" drugs will fall into this category.

*Mustard gas might actually inflict wounds onto each of the three tracks, depending on level of exposure, concentration, etc. etc.

[Yerameyahu]

Mhm. So your super-safe NeuroStun, that's just massive Chemical DV; KOs you, but can't overflow to Physical (maybe it overflows to Stun!). While cyanide probably is correctly P damage. I could see some more dangerous drugs (KO drugs are basically 'magic', compared to RL) doing Stun-with-overflow, I guess.

To avoid re-DV-ing everything, it might be best to *start* from the position of Chem damage doing the same wound penalty as Stun. I'm good with Phys being 1 worse, though.

[Hamsnibit]

BAD THINGS happen to your character while unconscious. Bad things...

I've been showing my fellow PCs how bad Stick-n-Shock and Stunbolts can be. There is no arguing now. Unconscious can be every bit as bad as dead. The difference is that you may live, wishing that you weren't...

- J.

Care to share the story?
Sounds interesting and you know ...
im always looking for some .. inspiration (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[The Jake]

Care to share the story?
Sounds interesting and you know ...
im always looking for some .. inspiration (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Well I am normally the GM but finally got a chance to play, so I switched to playing a shaman who generally (but not always) eschews lethal combat.

So I started using S-n-S and Stunbolt as my only combat spell and went to work. One of our earliest fights was against an Ant Shaman and his small-ish hive (long story short). Overcast stunbolts and some judicious use of Edge (no reaction/Initiative enhancement either) I took out two spirits (a flesh form and a true form I think) and knocked out the shaman. I had help mind you from the other PCs but in all three instances I made the finishing move. I think only the first spirit I took out fully on my own.

Anyway what we've found is that stun is great - Willpower is often the lowest attribute, Stick-n-Shock halves impact armor and even if they resist that, they still need to make the "twitch roll" as we call it (to see if you can still move after being zapped). Also not many people have "nonconductivity" mod for their armour. Heck, I even shot another PC with Stick-n-Shock for his character being an asshole. He soaked the damage and he made his twitch roll and he was NOT happy. LOL.

Spirits just take damage - stun or physical - its the same to them. They get disrupted. People, we just stun them and if we really want to take them out, we just execute them after. We've only done that a few times and they were to people smugglers so we didn't feel particularly strongly about doing them a disservice. But stun damage means you can make the decision what you do after. We've been able to interrogate people this way and its worked quite well for us.

Unfortunately, the door swings both ways. NPCs might use stun when they want to capture you alive -- and that is never a good thing. Also, depending on how nasty your GM is, if he's pulling this on you then you can almost bet death would be a kinder fate.

- J.

[Yerameyahu]

Yup. That's why everyone (almost (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ) says S&S and Stunbolt are overpowered.

[The Jake]

Yup. That's why everyone (almost (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ) says S&S and Stunbolt are overpowered.

I actually don't think they're overpowered at all. Spirits being disrupted by Stun damage is no another thing entirely but that isn't the fault of Stunbolts or Stick-n-Shock.

I can do equally nasty tricks with chemical weapons (gas or liquids) too.

- J.

[Yerameyahu]

Not as easily, and that only says they're *both* overpowered.

And I refuse to go into it again… but you're wrong. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[The Jake]

Not as easily, and that only says they're *both* overpowered.

And I refuse to go into it again… but you're wrong. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I'm sorry you feel that way. Maybe when you play the game a bit longer or think it through a little more, you'll see that isn't the case.

If you increase the cost of both, you then diminish the point of people using non-lethal means.

- J.

[Lantzer]

As for narrative. I always try to model my narrative (Character or GM<) on the results of what happened (Mechanics). Yes, the term "Haul Ass" is a poor choice of words for a character that has taken 9 boxes of Stun and 4 boxes of Physical. There is not going to be any such actions performed with those would levels. That is why I say that the Sheet should Inform the narrative. I don't care if you are the Terminator or Rambo, once you are on your last legs (and 9 boxes of stun out of 10 is nothing but), you are not likely going to be wading through the opposition. Unfortunately, How many times do you see that very circumstance crop up in your games? It has absolutely nothing to do with the splitting of the damage allocated between tracks. Many RP'ers do not take such things into account, because most of them have come from a DnD perspective, where you are good until you drop. This irritates me.

I've been lurking on this debate for a bit, and something seemed off. I finally turned my thoughts in the direction of why this has never been a problem in my games.

If characters are suffering from wound penalties on both tracks and don't really notice, your game's dice pools may be too big (GASP?). Dice Pools outside the game's intended range will cause unintended effects. In a more reasonably scaled game, the bloke who stayed conscious due to the physical wound should still be mostly incapable due to the extra penalties, if he was already highly stunned.

I'm with Tymeaus Jalynfein here on the interpretation of the damage and the intended consequences of armor.

[Yerameyahu]

There's really no call for that kind of ridiculous condescension, Jake. Especially from someone who admits to being an "asshole player".
Currently, there is no point to *not* using nonlethals. They're better in all ways; that's bad. This has been covered to death here on Dumpshock, so I'm neither expressing a fringe view, nor being unfair when I decline to rehash it.

--
Lanzter, that's still beside the point. The point is that there's KOd and there's not-KOd. It's not a question of how much they notice the wounds or not.