Physical and stun damage, Somtimes stun seems to be worse... Options

[Yerameyahu]

You could be grateful if your goal was to not be unconscious. This is a common goal, even though you might not share it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The fact is that players notice this (as evidenced by this thread). Such glitches hurt immersion and (yes!) enable metagaming. Therefore, the ideal situation is for such rule-world mismatches *not* to exist. This is not an unreasonable wish, or topic of thought. No, it's not the end of the world, but we're talking about a game anyway. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Right, which is a different point. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

One issue is that 2070 is a scientific world. It *is* theoretically possible that someone actually ran controlled experiments about how long subjects stayed conscious under damage. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) The same goes for overcasting, for the logical dominance of S&S, etc.

It is a Scientific and Magical World. And Magic is still not fully understood. And I would hazard to say that some of the Science is still nebulous as well, since it is constantly pushing forward. Fortunately, I do not see as many of the Issues that others claim to see. I have absolutely no issue with SnS rounds, for example, though if it were me, I would apply it as base damage of the weapon (s)e, rather than 6(s)e. The reason I have no problems is because it is not the predominant round at our table. Standard Ammo is. Followed by ExEx and APDS (or my favorite; A Capsule Round with DMSO/Narcojet).

I find it very entertaining/interesting when players try to exploit something, and yet when you apply it back upon them, they complain about it as being unfair. In the end, I am pretty fortunate that I do not game at a table where exploiting loopholes is the primary reaction to the ruleset. We are all capable of it, but it becomes unfun very fast. I play for the story and the fun.

That said, occasionally, we do try to make characters that are so gonzo, over the top, action heroish that it is ridiculous. Sometimes, That is fun. But it is not my preferred mode of operation.

[Yerameyahu]

You're exactly right: you're *always* blind to issues that *many* other people see. That doesn't mean they don't exist.

Again, this is not at all about exploiting loopholes. It's about the principle that loopholes shouldn't exist. Even loopholes that never ever affect you.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You're exactly right: you're *always* blind to issues that *many* other people see. That doesn't mean they don't exist.

Again, this is not at all about exploiting loopholes. It's about the principle that loopholes shouldn't exist. Even loopholes that never ever affect you.

I think you took what I said a little out of context, there.

Loopholes ALWAYS exist. You will never eliminate all of them. I am not actually BLIND to them, I just do not care about them, and do not allow them if I GM. That is a Very Different thing entirely. And it IS about exploiting Loopholes, ask any of the longtime members of Dumpshock who tweak Characters often. Ask Neraph, he'll tell you. Hell, he is the King of Exploiting the loophole (No Offense Neraph). Otherwise we would rarely, if ever, have these conversations. How many times do you see that very advice here on Dumpshock? "Hey, here is a Loophole, exploit it so that you can be better, because that is what everyone else does."

I see it all the time here, and I am sure that you do too.

I have little issue with discussing the theory behind theoretical loopholes, but they should never be allowed into the game to start with, so I often have issues with others arguing that they are a valid tactic. You and I often see the same things, just from differeing perspectives. Where you see an actual issue, I do not, because I would never allow it in the first place. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

As someone else said (maybe it was even you, Yerameyahu). If there are two different interpretation of a rule, and one of them is asinine, then that is probably the wrong interpretation. With a little thought, and a look at the Shadowrun World, most of those "interpretations" vanish.

Could the rules be better? Sure. Unfortunately, with the written language in general (And English Specifically), the issue is that it would read very dry, and no one would actually play. Ever read a "perfect" technical manual? I have, and they really suck for gripping the reader, or for immersing them. I prefer what we have (flaws and all) to a "Perfect" ruleset, everytime.

[Yerameyahu]

Like I said a few times, I'm not talking about a gameplay issue at all. I'm talking about theory. I'm not even directly concerned with whether player-usable exploits exist, but whether bad mechanics (even 'anti-exploits') in the rules exist. So, no, it is not about exploiting loopholes. If it were about that, Wheaton's Law would indeed have already handled it.

But! That's no reason to ignore loopholes and errors; instead, it's a reason to identify and discuss them. I don't agree that 'cleaner' rules necessitates 'drier' reading. For example, the WoD condition monitor is not drier. (I'm not saying it's perfect or even the right solution, of course.)

[Irion]

I do not think anybody is dropping his armor mid combat. It would be silly and actually it would take longer than a single action anyway.

The main issue with how stun and physical damage is handled is when you get both kinds of damage.

And it is not only the fact, that you may fall unconcious from stun, while physical damage is still killing you.

Also stundamage becomes incredible deadly as soon as you are passed out.

If you are passed out it does not matter if you get shot with life amunition or gel rounds. Thats silly too.

Add to this the fact, that you have not only stun and physical but also stun(magical), physical(magical), physical(Spine, Brain), physical(vulnerability)...

[Draco18s]

My god, I never thought I'd say this, but....

....The Dresden Files RPG has a wonderfully great damage system.

[Warlordtheft]

I use a modified armor degredation rule in my games and it does help mitigate this as the PC is evetuall going to get hit with a lot of P damage. Basically after every time the PC or NPC misses his dodge roll for an attack, all worn armor is reduced by 1 impact and 1 ballistic. So yeah, eventually it wiil catch up to the PC/NPC if they have taken alot of stun damage from getting hit.

[Draco18s]

I use a modified armor degredation rule in my games and it does help mitigate this as the PC is evetuall going to get hit with a lot of P damage. Basically after every time the PC or NPC misses his dodge roll for an attack, all worn armor is reduced by 1 impact and 1 ballistic. So yeah, eventually it wiil catch up to the PC/NPC if they have taken alot of stun damage from getting hit.

All I can think is, "Wow, what a way to dick over low body characters even more. And give reaction monkeys more candy."

[Warlordtheft]

All I can think is, "Wow, what a way to dick over low body characters even more. And give reaction monkeys more candy."

Not really. I tend run less mohawk more mirroed shade, so the NPC's (and PC's) tend to avoid getting into gunfights. The best way for a 1 or 2 bod character to survive a gunfight is not to get into one or find a nice quiet spot in the shooting gallery where they can hole up. And for that part--dodge/gymnastics dodge is a useful skill.

[snowRaven]

Loopholes ALWAYS exist. You will never eliminate all of them. I am not actually BLIND to them, I just do not care about them, and do not allow them if I GM. That is a Very Different thing entirely. And it IS about exploiting Loopholes, ask any of the longtime members of Dumpshock who tweak Characters often. Ask Neraph, he'll tell you. Hell, he is the King of Exploiting the loophole (No Offense Neraph). Otherwise we would rarely, if ever, have these conversations. How many times do you see that very advice here on Dumpshock? "Hey, here is a Loophole, exploit it so that you can be better, because that is what everyone else does."

I see it all the time here, and I am sure that you do too.

While I agree with you regarding loopholes and metagaming, this particular question DOES become a game play issue even if you ignore the active loophole exploits.

For one, there will be in-game reasons for people to want to stay fighting: say you're up against feral ghouls - you know you're dead if you drop, and if you have observed that you can take a lot more damage if every other attack penetrate your armor, you will want some attacks to go through so you can stay on your feet long enough to kill them. That would be a very valid in-game view, caused by following the rules-gap from an in-game-consistent point of view.

But, even more ridiculous:

You have armor 8, and the attacker does 6P.

You've taken 8 boxes of stun and no physical, and he shoots at you. If he rolls enough net successes to up the damage beyond your armor value, you're almost certain to stay standing for a counterattack. If, however, he only gets one net success, you're quite likely to drop from the damage.

It's the same bullet from the same gun, but you're more likely to stay on your feet if the attacker rolls more successes and the bullet actually penetrates into your body, than you are if the armor stops the bullet.

Or - even worse: if the guy shoots a burst at you, he's LESS likely to drop you than if he shoots a single bullet, assuming an equally good hit with the burst.

This is illogical even from an in-game point of view.

If someone hit Mr. Security Guard with a taser, and he's getting up again, you're less likely to knock him out if you make a called shot for more damage, or to circumvent armor, than you are if you use two guns and divide your dice between him and someone else.

Say you are being shot at, and you have Body and Willpower scores of 4. Both damage codes go over your armor. One guy has gel rounds and the other has normal rounds, and you take 3 boxes of damage on each hit.

If they alternate, you won't drop until after being hit a total of 7 times. If they both were using gel rounds, you'd drop on the fourth shot. If all you want is to make the other guy stop shooting at you, one gel round bullet is equal to three normal rounds in this case.

Any time you can expect better results using fewer dice, or fewer bullets, or rolling fewer successes, it is a clear sign that something is off...

[bibliophile20]

If this came up, and the scene was dramatic enough (but only if the Rule Of Drama was at stake) I'd allow the player to either make a Dead Man' Trigger roll or to roll Body+Willpower to heroically stay conscious despite crippling pain for a single pass's worth of action.

If someone tried to use the metagame exploit of "remove armor to take Physical damage" in a game I was running, I think my NPCs would whisper a silent prayer in thanks that 'runners are stupid SINless, all praise Mother Megacorp, and shoot to kill (Called Shots to bypass armor and/or to target the newly exposed vulnerable areas--y'know, what armor covers--for increased damage).

That's my $.02. *goes back to spectating* (We need a :popcorn: emoticon...)

[NorthernWolf]

I have to admit, after reading snowRavens example of this, it makes me think deeply on the damage system. To me, that seems extremely off. Havent played much yet so have not seen this in action, though I am sure it will come up. (The instance of stun and physical, vs stun only, not my players taking advantage of it, thats laughable)

Do many people house rule this? If so with what methods? (other than those presented already i guess)

[Draco18s]

I also like the blue planet system of damage. A character dies/falls unconscious when they can no longer make basic checks because penalties are too high and even if they roll max on the dice, they still get a 0 or lower.

[snowRaven]

I have to admit, after reading snowRavens example of this, it makes me think deeply on the damage system. To me, that seems extremely off. Havent played much yet so have not seen this in action, though I am sure it will come up. (The instance of stun and physical, vs stun only, not my players taking advantage of it, thats laughable)

Do many people house rule this? If so with what methods? (other than those presented already i guess)

In all honesty, it's not much of a problem in our games. We're aware of the issue, and sometimes a player will 'cheat' the system by planning according to damage taken (by intentionally overcasting if they have too much Stun, or by focusing lethal vs nonlethal attacks on separate opponents to take them out faster). Once, and only once, did the issue I mentioned above appear: guy in really heavy armor had taken a lot of hits that obviously didn't penetrate, and one player decided to single shot him instead of shooting a burst to increase their chances of just inflicting a few points of stun.

Occasionally, a player will go: 'no, don't shoot him, he's only taken stun damage - shoot someone undamaged!', or vice versa if someone uses stun weapons. No one strips off armor mid-combat, however.

Every now and then, there's a bit of groaning about it, but we accept the failing of the system there (and in other places...) and move on.



I like the One Roll Engine's system for damage, personally. Been toying of doing an SR convertion for that system, but it'd change the tone of the game a lot...

[CanRay]

My group did question it for a bit, until I pointed out the difference in healing times between Stun and Physical damage tracks. And what they signify. They shrugged and went, "OK, that makes sense. It's the will to go on versus the physical ability to keep going. Mental courage versus physical courage."

EDIT: I also said that the physical track delivered less PAIN because it would kick in the endorphins and adrenaline and such, but you crash hard when you're no longer on the Jazz. That got a lot of nods.

[snowRaven]

My group did question it for a bit, until I pointed out the difference in healing times between Stun and Physical damage tracks. And what they signify. They shrugged and went, "OK, that makes sense. It's the will to go on versus the physical ability to keep going. Mental courage versus physical courage."

EDIT: I also said that the physical track delivered less PAIN because it would kick in the endorphins and adrenaline and such, but you crash hard when you're no longer on the Jazz. That got a lot of nods.

Yeah, that's a good way to explain away most of the strangeness... =)

[CanRay]

The "Tony Montana Rule". (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[OneTrikPony]

First: Are there no STIM PATCHES in SR4?

Second: Really the problem is the stun damage and physical damage are very different things but they don't really have different effects in the game. Access to magical healing is the default of the game and that makes physical damage not scary at all.

Magical Healing should be more costly or more difficult.

Another issue is that physical healing even without magic is comically fast. Some people would argue that this keeps the game playable. My argument is that this is a role game not a board game. If your character gets seriously hurt the player should have to deal with having a wounded character for a couple of sessions.

The biggest issue, in my opinion is that the modifiers for physical and stun wounds are the same. There are several ways to deal with this.

Do allow a character to make a roll to remain concious after the stun monitor is filled. But double the damage when the character takes physical damage at that point.

increase the modifiers for physical wounds.

Basically what I'm trying to say is that Phys damage should be more scary than stun damage. and having both at the same time should be more scary than that.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

There is no in-game reasoning for removing armor keeping your conscious longer under fire. You're talking about a different, distracting point: that there's an in-game reason no one would *notice*. You're right: it *is* exactly the same as Overcasting, which is equally an issue to be discussed. You can bet that 'in the world' some mage sometime would notice that they (inexplicably!) felt better casting at a certain level.

Once again, it is nothing to do with curbing metagaming. It is about the rules failing to produce a coherent effect; bad rules. We don't *want* any disconnect (actually, conflict) between the rules and the reality. Sure, they work fine *if you ignore it*. You shouldn't have to ignore it. You shouldn't have to have gentlemen's agreements. You shouldn't have to have GM intervention. So, here in this discussion forum, where we discuss theory, this is an issue worthy of discussion.

Well, I'm usually one to just roll with the rules and say "that world doesn't work like ours". Because that's a better solution than simulating your way to perfection. In light of this, there are many in-game reasons to want to distribue physical and stun, which don't involve tons of metagaming.

Obviously, I'm always in favour of a house-rule, though, that removes strangeness. From a pure game perspective non-lethal and lethal damage should always stack on your way to unconsiousness.

Heheheh... I guess we have to agree to disagree on this then. I don't see an Issue of "Avoidance", where you do. It is discussed, I (or another GM) beat people about the head and shoulders with a heavy Tome for being crazy, and then it is not allowed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

And I was also arguing that there was no in-game reasoning to remove armor. There is EVERY in-game reason to NOT do so, though. Which was my point. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

No worries. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

That's a common fallacy: If a rule is bad you can't say it's not bad, and then disallow it. If you don't actually care that its bad, then you absolutely SHOULD allow it, or else you're being completely inconsistent. Obviously you do care, because you disallow it, you're just being a lazy GM. I do agree that fixing SR takes more commitment than some other games... so I'm generally also too lazy to fix everything.

I personally really don't care (enough), and if any time my players were to try taking off armour I would simply roll with it. Taking off armour usually also means fewer soak dice, which generally means you're now taking more physical than you would have taken stun. I know my GM dice, and my playes know that they can be deadly. Do you really want to risk suddenly taking 11P instead of 11S?

NO... Physical Damage HURTS me much more than Stun Damage Does. I can never see a time where I would be grateful to have Physical Damage over Stun Damage. But then, I do not care if I am captured or not.

Actually, it really doesn't, within the game. Damage mods are basically pain mods, and they are identical. So again, the game world works differently. Personally, the healing time approach is what sells me not to take physical damage.

First: Are there no STIM PATCHES in SR4?

Second: Really the problem is the stun damage and physical damage are very different things but they don't really have different effects in the game. Access to magical healing is the default of the game and that makes physical damage not scary at all.

Magical Healing should be more costly or more difficult.

Another issue is that physical healing even without magic is comically fast. Some people would argue that this keeps the game playable. My argument is that this is a role game not a board game. If your character gets seriously hurt the player should have to deal with having a wounded character for a couple of sessions.

Preferences aside, actually physical treatment and magical healing are handled the same in the game, which IMHO is a bit of a break: I'm fine with magic being magic, and anyway Magical healing does/can cause quite a lot of drain. Now Frist Aid is really ridiculously easy, even with the threshold of 2, because you can get so many dice so easily.

[CanRay]

Rating 6 MedKit, best investment any 'runner can make! I typically buy multiple ones and keep them around a lot of places. (One in the car, a few at home, a few in the safehouse, one to carry on 'runs, lower rating and smaller one to put into the GoTH Plan Long-Term Bus Locker.).

[thorya]

I have to admit, after reading snowRavens example of this, it makes me think deeply on the damage system. To me, that seems extremely off. Havent played much yet so have not seen this in action, though I am sure it will come up. (The instance of stun and physical, vs stun only, not my players taking advantage of it, thats laughable)

Do many people house rule this? If so with what methods? (other than those presented already i guess)

I'm sure if you go back through enough threads, you can find the multiple ways people have done so.

I personally say make physical damage do both physical and stun damage, so there is no incentive to take armor off or need to divide up your stun and physical attacks, if you're just trying to disable someone. To compensate for this I would just make the Stun = 12 + Willpower. That way if one more attack would someone out, it doesn't really matter whether the last attack is stun or physical. This also has the nice effect of making stunball less instant knockout powerful and making players actually stop and think whether they want to use stick-n-shock or regular ammo, since disabling someone without killing or seriously harming them becomes harder. And if we are at all trying to model our world, this is what we see. It's much easier to kill or seriously wound someone then to disable them without lasting harm.

[Yerameyahu]

I'm good with making knockouts less trivial. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Yeah, Brainpiercing, I'm not a 'simulationist'. My goal isn't to make the damage mechanic realistic (or detailed) per se, just consistent. Abstract and consistent is fine (probably preferred).

CanRay, you definitely can do that, but it certainly sounds like a post hoc explanation. It is indeed possible to just ignore or rationalize it, but (given enough boredom) it can be nice to consider alternatives that might be smoother. Damage resolution and tracking is probably one of the stickier aspects of RPG theory, because it's where the realism/game aspects really collide negatively.

[Udoshi]

It is NOT an issue. That is Gaming the System, pure and simple. In no way is it ever better to take Physical Damage than it is to take Stun Damage.

Except if you are the mage. Then you probably WANT to overcast so you don't drop unconscious and stop counterspelling.

[Saint Sithney]

Personally, I think giving effectively double damage for physical unnecessarily punishes players. Also, modifiers would then end up doubled.

I've got no problem with physical damage causing more DP penalties.
Loss of blood and physical integrity is a pretty big deal.

This sort of thing could potentially be used in a revamp of the damage rules for weapons. At the least, things like shotguns or wide bursts could do some simultaneous combination of physical and stun.