Physical and stun damage, Somtimes stun seems to be worse... Options

[Mäx]

No, its not. It is a Better result. It may be an unfortunate result, but if your goal is to take someone down non-lethally, use Non-lethal (Less Lethal?) rounds. Problem solved. If your goal is to kill them, then the result you claim is worse, is, in fact, better.

In what bizarro word do you live in that having a guy still standing and trying to kill you is better then him lying in the ground unconscious.
For normal shadow runners, who are not specifically trying kill or not kill the security guards, dead or unconcious doesn't matter, only think that matters is that the guy isn't capable of shooting at them any more.

[Draco18s]

Not to mention that if you are trying to kill him, an unconscious body with no physical wounds is easier to "make dead" than a conscious one with both physical and stun (the latter tends to resist).

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

In what bizarro word do you live in that having a guy still standing and trying to kill you is better then him lying in the ground unconscious.
For normal shadow runners, who are not specifically trying kill or not kill the security guards, dead or unconcious doesn't matter, only think that matters is that the guy isn't capable of shooting at them any more.

Context Matters Max... Bleeding is always better than bruised, from the shooter's standpoint. If you are going to make the target bleed, then make him bleed. But you cannot argue that because the round impacted on the armor the first few times and the third time you actually penetrated and caused real wounds that the system sucks. It functions as it was intended to function. Armor keeps wounds from being lethal, boith in the real world and in Shadowrun. If you don't like it, then use a round that either causes Stun all the time, or use ammo that will reliably penetrate armor. That is Life, both in the Shadows and outside of them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Not to mention that if you are trying to kill him, an unconscious body with no physical wounds is easier to "make dead" than a conscious one with both physical and stun (the latter tends to resist).

But then you are NOT trying to kill your target, you are trying to make them unconscious, and then you have the luxury to decide what to do with him after he is down.

That is NOT the same thing, Draco18s. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[BishopMcQ]

Pure theory, straight off the cuff, never been tested.

Give a single damage track of Body+Willpower. Stun damage does a / across the box. Physical Damage does an X on the box.

When the last box is filled in with a / you fall unconscious, if it is filled with an X you die. (If you really need an overflow chart, add Body extra boxes on the side.)

When you take Stun damage, you have the choice of either putting a second slash in a box with Stun, and rendering it Physical, or you can keep climbing the chart. (That first punch knocked the wind out of you, the second cracked a rib)

So let's say that Johnny has a Body of 4 and a Willpower of 3. [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] He gets attacked by a pair of Halloweeners.
After taking two punches for 3 boxes of Stun damage each, he decided it's going to ring his bell but not do lasting damage. (Option A) [/] [/] [/] [/] [/] [/] [ ]

Or he could take a few sprains and cracks (Option B) [X] [X] [/] [/] [ ] [ ] [ ]

Physical damage adds at the base of the track and pushes stun higher.
The gangers up the ante since Johnny still hasn't handed over the keys to his car. One of them stabs him for 2 boxes of Physical.
Option A-[X] [X] [/] [/] [/] [/] [/] {Here the overflowed stun rolled over into Overflow boxes.} Johnny passes out but will come to in a few minutes.

Option B-[X] [X] [X] [X] [/] [/] [ ] Johnny can keep fighting and has the strong possibility of dying.

The damage system is dynamic without really bogging things down and adding tons of extra paperwork. If players really want to game the system and transfer Stun into Physical to stay standing, they can--though it's a damgerous game because it could mean the difference between "Dead" and "Able to Fight Another Day"

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Which is a viable solution, ala NWOD. Though the damage in Shadowrun is still a lot more deadly (as in Hits + Base Damage) than in NWOD (Which is just Hits). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

It's not a mechanics perspective, it's a metagame (mechanics+world) perspective. That's the point. There is a mismatch, and there should be no mismatch. The question is not 'how often does this come up in play?', 'can this be abused?', 'how can abuse be avoided?', etc. It is 'do the rules match the world coherently, or not?'; the fact is, they don't quite. Not unplayably, but noticeably (because people manifestly do notice it).

[Warlordtheft]

Or we could go with a hit location system like pheonix command. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) Not that combat needs to be anymore complex. Plus, I'm not sure that system has stun and physical charts.

Come to think of it P damage definitely has some location to where it happens, whereas stun seems to represent overall fatigue, shock and concussion damage.

[BishopMcQ]

Tymaeus--I've never played NWOD, but I can see what you're saying. A simple option would be to do 5+Bod+Will, similar to the current tracks being 8+(1/2 Bod). Alternately, the soak mechanics may help compensate for the damage difference.

Yerameyahu -- Alright. I've never had it come up as a problem with my tables, or heard folks complain about it when running convention games. If it is a problem for your group and others, due to the rules not matching a coherent world view, how can we change the rules to make it match? If we argue about perspectives, our work will never be done.

[thorya]

But then you are NOT trying to kill your target, you are trying to make them unconscious, and then you have the luxury to decide what to do with him after he is down.

That is NOT the same thing, Draco18s. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Okay Tymeaus Jalynsfein, I can accept that in your games, people continuing to shoot at you and potentially killing you is a good thing as long as it means they'll feel it more the next day. It's clearly not the world anyone else is playing in, but each game is different.

How do you justify the casting problem though? If I'm a mage that has 9 boxes of Stun damage (Let's say I drop at 10 for the sake of this scenario) and no physical damage. I've fired off a few stunballs already and took out most of the gang, casting conservatively so that I wouldn't hurt myself (hence the stun). My street sam partner is down (having drawn most of the fire in the first few passes), so I'm facing the last three guys by myself. It looks like they'll tear me to shredds and I can feel that I'm hurt and near my limits, but I know that if I push it and put myself in some serious physical danger with this next spell, I'll take them down with me and our hacker buddy can come haul us out of there. Narratively, I let loose with my last bit of effort and knock those guys out then collapse from exhaustion and pain. Mechanically, I overcast stunball at force 10 and roll to resist 6 drain. The three guys drop, I end up taking 4 boxes of physical damage and I . . . am still standing and can haul out of there no problem. Whereas if I had decided that it's better to try to stay on my feet with these guys in case someone shows up before our hacker friend, I cast at a conservative force 5 and have to resist 3 drain, I take 1 box of stun damage, I'm unconscious and the three guys are still up. They shoot me and my sam buddy a few more time and our hacker gets to come in and recover our bodies later. Narratively, it doesn't make sense. I was doing something more dangerous, putting out my last bit of effort and I'm fine. But if I had done something less dangerous, it has worse consequences. Sure I'll need to heal 4 boxes of physical damage, but that's nothing compared to being riddled with bullets while I'm unconscious. There was no metagaming BS there. Either choice is justified from a player perspective, but the one that should be more radical and dangerous narratively is less so mechanically.

[Draco18s]

Narratively, I let loose with my last bit of effort and knock those guys out then collapse from exhaustion and pain. Mechanically, I overcast stunball at force 10 and roll to resist 6 drain. The three guys drop, I end up taking 4 boxes of physical damage and I . . . am still standing and can haul out of there no problem.

This, so much this.

[Yerameyahu]

I mentioned some things way back at the beginning, Bishop. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) There are certainly other ways, as well, and we would've been proposing and critiquing those methods if we hadn't wasted all this time, hehe.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Okay Tymeaus Jalynsfein, I can accept that in your games, people continuing to shoot at you and potentially killing you is a good thing as long as it means they'll feel it more the next day. It's clearly not the world anyone else is playing in, but each game is different.

How do you justify the casting problem though? If I'm a mage that has 9 boxes of Stun damage (Let's say I drop at 10 for the sake of this scenario) and no physical damage. I've fired off a few stunballs already and took out most of the gang, casting conservatively so that I wouldn't hurt myself (hence the stun). My street sam partner is down (having drawn most of the fire in the first few passes), so I'm facing the last three guys by myself. It looks like they'll tear me to shredds and I can feel that I'm hurt and near my limits, but I know that if I push it and put myself in some serious physical danger with this next spell, I'll take them down with me and our hacker buddy can come haul us out of there. Narratively, I let loose with my last bit of effort and knock those guys out then collapse from exhaustion and pain. Mechanically, I overcast stunball at force 10 and roll to resist 6 drain. The three guys drop, I end up taking 4 boxes of physical damage and I . . . am still standing and can haul out of there no problem. Whereas if I had decided that it's better to try to stay on my feet with these guys in case someone shows up before our hacker friend, I cast at a conservative force 5 and have to resist 3 drain, I take 1 box of stun damage, I'm unconscious and the three guys are still up. They shoot me and my sam buddy a few more time and our hacker gets to come in and recover our bodies later. Narratively, it doesn't make sense. I was doing something more dangerous, putting out my last bit of effort and I'm fine. But if I had done something less dangerous, it has worse consequences. Sure I'll need to heal 4 boxes of physical damage, but that's nothing compared to being riddled with bullets while I'm unconscious. There was no metagaming BS there. Either choice is justified from a player perspective, but the one that should be more radical and dangerous narratively is less so mechanically.

The problem, thouygh, is that you resorted, at the end, to a mechanical and not narrative resolution. Yes, Mechanically, you have 4 Physical and 9 Stun. But Narratively, you still are exhausted and copllapse from the pain. This does not mean that narratively, you cannot actually help your friend, nor get away. But if you just "Stand up and put him over your shoulder, hitch up your pants, and walk 3 miles to your vehicle, all the while whistling a tune" then you have just metagamed the scenario. Why? Because you do not take into consideration the World Impact of what just happened, you are only looking at the mechanical perspective.

There is a ton of narrative license that can be taken in the game, if you but do so. Defaulting the mechanical descriptions is a cop out, and a metagame issue.

In the end, both scenarios result in the same net damage to the character. But one is completely narrative, and within the scope of the Worldview, and the other is complete Metagame BS and is from a Player, not character, perspective.

Unfortunately, we are not really solving anything here. They are ultimately two different ways of looking at the rules, and they generally never meet in the middle. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

TJ, once again, you have exactly illustrated the problem: at no point should a player be required to narratively compensate for broken rules (in fact, actually defy them). That's like saying players should be able to say, 'no, that guy didn't hit me, it doesn't fit my narrative'. That's the *point* of RPG rules.

[Draco18s]

The problem, thouygh, is that you resorted, at the end, to a mechanical and not narrative resolution. Yes, Mechanically, you have 4 Physical and 9 Stun. But Narratively, you still are exhausted and copllapse from the pain.

"Really? My sheet says I'm still conscious."

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

This, so much this.

But it is not that...

Why when it is narratively described does it all of a sudden change when it is Mecahnically resolved. I know that you say it is because the mechanics do not relate to the description. But I disagree... Descriptively, the character IS exhausted, and has, on top of it, effectively given himself an anneurism/stroke to deal with. At what point is he still "Standing"?

He has Hurt himself significantly (9 Stun and 4 Physical). How are you now saying the he is "Okay"?
This is a disconnect between GM's, Players, and their characters. Not the rules and the World View.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

TJ, once again, you have exactly illustrated the problem: at no point should a player be required to narratively compensate for broken rules (in fact, actually defy them). That's like saying players should be able to say, 'no, that guy didn't hit me, it doesn't fit my narrative'. That's the *point* of RPG rules.

It is not narrative compensation, as far as I am concerned. It is a view of the world FROM THE CHARACTER'S POV. NOT FROM THE PLAYER'S.
THAT is where the issue resides.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

"Really? My sheet says I'm still conscious."

And gravely hurt. So much so, that you should be almost unable to stand, much less carry a 100 Kilo friend to safety. But that is my point. PLAYER's Don't care about that, they go "to the Numbers" to resolve something rather than the Character's Viepoint in the World. It is very DnD, actually, where you are totally unhurt until you take that last HP of damage. I call BS on that type of mentality.

[Draco18s]

He has Hurt himself significantly (9 Stun and 4 Physical). How are you now saying the he is "Okay"?

No, he's not "OK" but he's conscious and capable of carrying out further actions (albeit at a stiff penalty).

Whereas if he'd been unconscious (due to using a lower force spell), he'd have been captured and/or killed (because his enemies were still conscious and his rigger buddy isn't capable of picking him up first).

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

No, he's not "OK" but he's conscious and capable of carrying out further actions (albeit at a stiff penalty).

Whereas if he'd been unconscious (due to using a lower force spell), he'd have been captured and/or killed (because his enemies were still conscious and his rigger buddy isn't capable of picking him up first).

I agree that he is conscious. But if you perform actions that are not commensurate with your wound levels (especially ones that require minimal or no rolls) then you are "Playing the character sheet and the numbers" rather than playing based upon what the CHARACTER knows/can perform.

As for captured... So what?

As I said... Two completely different Perespectives.

[Yerameyahu]

You can't not go by the rules, TJ, just to serve your own roleplaying vision. If the condition monitor says you're conscious but wounded, you're conscious but wounded. It is not up to the players to say, 'no, I think I'm actually unconscious, guys', just as much as it's not okay for the player to say, 'no, I think I'm actually still conscious, GM'. You're asking something that's literally impossible, and rightly so. That's why there are rules, instead of being freeform. This is not 'playing the wrong perspective', it's broken rules. There is no perspective involved here at all.

[Faraday]

Faraday, any playtesting on that? I noticed that you didn't round up, though. 5/2 = 3 stun, 3 physical.

Sadly, no. I think you transposed the numbers in my post, no rounding up needed to occur. (5 physical, 6 armor. 6/2=3. So 3 Stun, 2 Physical)

I might try it when I GM again with my group, still trying to figure out what to do with burst fire. Maybe have it add to physical if base DV+hits>armor, stun if=<armor.

[Yerameyahu]

OH! I thought you meant 'take the incoming P, send half to S'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Totally misread, sorry.

[Faraday]

OH! I thought you meant 'take the incoming P, send half to S'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Totally misread, sorry.

No worries. The idea is to make personal armor protection more granular. Makes combat more costly, but also less dangerous to an extent. In general, if bullets are flying, wound modifiers will get to stacking pretty quickly and one side may well give up before going unconscious.

[snowRaven]

Add a mage with "Reduce Willpower"

Shhh! Don't tip off my players to it! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
But yeah, that works - and it's part of my point, actually... There is precedence for 'negative modifers > Willpower = no actions' - Spells like Agony, for instance. I think it works even for damage, though you can rule that the target is conscious but in too much pain to act. It adds flavor, as there is a real reason to use stim patches and drugs or anything else that gives you pain tolerance beyond getting 'more dice'.

No, its not. It is a Better result. It may be an unfortunate result, but if your goal is to take someone down non-lethally, use Non-lethal (Less Lethal?) rounds. Problem solved. If your goal is to kill them, then the result you claim is worse, is, in fact, better. Now, if you are going to metagame, then yes, you could argue your point, but it would still have absolutely zero validity. You have inflicted a wound that heals on the increment of a day, vs a wound that would heal on an increment of an hour. Sounds like a more successful result to me. Again, people are arguing from a metagame POV, not a World POV. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I agree that he is conscious. But if you perform actions that are not commensurate with your wound levels (especially ones that require minimal or no rolls) then you are "Playing the character sheet and the numbers" rather than playing based upon what the CHARACTER knows/can perform.

As for captured... So what?

As I said... Two completely different Perespectives.

The character doesn't really have to know either way - even if the player plays the character according to the in-game facts, the problem is there. Even if your goal is trying to kill the bad guy, you end up in a situation where a better roll gives a less desirable result - whether the character knows it is irrelevant.

If the target has high levels of pain tolerance and high skill ratings, it may be quite costly for the character to make a 'great shot' and get through the armor rather than a mediocre one and drop the villain with stun damage. The character will likely never know this, of course - but it is possible even from an in-game perspective to discover this phenomenon. It could be easy, as well - 'hmm, whenever I throw a manabolt at the guy my friend has been ripping to shreds with his claws, he drops, but when I do the same to the guy that the troll has pummeled with his fists, it seems no different than if I had done it against an unwounded fellow...that's odd.' or 'if I've been shot and I'm bleeding, I never pass out when I come down from the Betameth, but if a round got stuck in my armor, or I was punched hard in the face, I always pass out...why is that?'

Using narration to complement the rules is a great tool and goal for RPing, but if you have to use it to override the rules just to avoid weird situations, then it's a sign that the rules are flawed.