Shiva Arms: Practical or Just Fun? |
Shiva Arms: Practical or Just Fun? |
Jan 27 2012, 04:35 AM
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#1
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Target Group: Members Posts: 67 Joined: 17-June 09 From: Maine Member No.: 17,288 |
I've always had a thing for characters with extra arms. Don't know why but I do. My question is are there any good way's to build a character around the Shiva Arms meta-quality in 4E.
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Jan 27 2012, 04:40 AM
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#2
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,782 Joined: 28-August 09 Member No.: 17,566 |
Yes there is.
I have, as an experiment, made a six-armed gunslinger. Its actually brutally effective. You basically have to load up on all the dice POOL modifiers you can possibly get, so they apply after the two-gun dice split, and then do your best to cancel out any other modifiers that can tank your dice pool into glitch-heavy territory. (a means of getting guard is HIGHLY recommended) When you put out 6 shots per simple action at 6-7 dice each, its a lot of hurt. Not because each shot does a lot of damage, but because you can very quickly whittle a defenders dice pool down to nothing, even if on a full defense, and either nickle-and-dime them to death, or just put all of your dice into one shot with your other action. Just keep in mind that if you can put out a potential 12 shots each turn, and kind of stack the odds up just enough so each of them gets at least one hit, then that is a potential -12 to someone's defense pool from subsequent attacks. The other real use of shiva arms is to put arms on critters so you can get monster people. |
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Jan 27 2012, 06:31 AM
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#3
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Target Group: Members Posts: 3 Joined: 5-November 11 Member No.: 42,804 |
QUOTE You basically have to load up on all the dice POOL modifiers you can possibly get, so they apply after the two-gun dice split... Wait, really? I wasn't aware there were any modifiers that were added after you split your pool. In fact, as far as I know, RAW says specifically to add all positive modifiers before you split your pool. |
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Jan 27 2012, 07:32 AM
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#4
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,507 Joined: 11-November 08 Member No.: 16,582 |
Wait, really? I wasn't aware there were any modifiers that were added after you split your pool. In fact, as far as I know, RAW says specifically to add all positive modifiers before you split your pool. Read the rules. All modifiers are added after the split:QUOTE ('SR4A p. 150') Split the pool before applying modifiers. There is no differentiation between positive and negative modifiers.
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Jan 27 2012, 07:43 AM
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#5
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,782 Joined: 28-August 09 Member No.: 17,566 |
Wait, really? I wasn't aware there were any modifiers that were added after you split your pool. In fact, as far as I know, RAW says specifically to add all positive modifiers before you split your pool. Hell-no. You ONLY split Stat+Skill. There are ALSO special restrictions that makes smartlinks and laser sights also not apply. |
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Jan 27 2012, 09:30 AM
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#6
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Immortal Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,358 Joined: 2-December 07 From: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada Member No.: 14,465 |
Fun and difficulty of six arms, in webcomic form. (Hint: Keep an eye on lower-lefty!)
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Jan 27 2012, 09:42 AM
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#7
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,236 Joined: 27-July 10 Member No.: 18,860 |
@Udoshi
QUOTE You ONLY split Stat+Skill. Not quite. You split Stat+Skill+Diceboni and afterwards you add dicepool modifier. All ranged modifiers are to be found on the table on page 140. There are additional in the arsenal as far as I know... Most boni from Bioware, Cyberware and Magic etc. are Dicepool boni and not modifiers. (Some are, but if so it is mentioned) |
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Jan 27 2012, 09:55 AM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 881 Joined: 13-November 11 From: Vienna, Austria Member No.: 43,494 |
You split Stat+Skill+Diceboni and afterwards you add dicepool modifier. This is plain WRONG. There are only DP modifiers, skill (incl. skill modifiers) and attribute (incl. attribute modifiers). QUOTE (SR4A p.150 Attacker Using a Second Firear m) Doing so, however, requires that the character split his dice pool between the attacks. Split the pool before applying modifiers. QUOTE (SR4A p.60 Dice Pools) When a player makes a test, she rolls a number of dice equal to her dice pool. The dice pool is the sum of the relevant skill plus its linked attribute, plus or minus any modifiers that may apply. |
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Jan 27 2012, 10:27 AM
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#9
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
@Udoshi Not quite. You split Stat+Skill+Diceboni and afterwards you add dicepool modifier. All ranged modifiers are to be found on the table on page 140. There are additional in the arsenal as far as I know... Most boni from Bioware, Cyberware and Magic etc. are Dicepool boni and not modifiers. (Some are, but if so it is mentioned) Probably the RAI, and how I would run it myself, but unfortunately not how the rules are actually worded (although I still think that the intent - for it to only mean things like light, cover, etc. is clearly discernible). And so you have ludicrous munchkin exploits such as this, or, on the magical side, a multi-casting mage adding the full rating of his Force: 4 power focus and mentor spirit bonus to each of the spellcasting tests. |
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Jan 27 2012, 10:29 AM
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#10
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,236 Joined: 27-July 10 Member No.: 18,860 |
For example:
QUOTE ("Reflex recorder") The reflex recorder adds a +1 dice pool bonus to a specific skill or skill group If it would be a modifier, why did they not call it like that? QUOTE The dice pool is the sum of the relevant skill plus its linked attribute, plus or minus any modifiers that may apply. So the reflex recorder would not give you any bonus by Raw. Thats right, but it is silly. I guess they just used modifiers here as a general term. But yes, it should have been written differently. |
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Jan 27 2012, 10:38 AM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 881 Joined: 13-November 11 From: Vienna, Austria Member No.: 43,494 |
Well, you use an old book. SR4 Errata changed it to a skill modifier.
QUOTE (SR4A p.347 / SR4 Errata) The reflex recorder adds 1 to the rating of a specific skill or skill group (Combat and Physical skills only) Edit: Also, i would say everything that is not a skill or attribute mod, is a DP mod. |
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Jan 27 2012, 11:06 AM
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#12
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,748 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Good ol' Germany Member No.: 7,015 |
Hello everybody (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
QUOTE My question is are there any good way's to build a character around the Shiva Arms meta-quality in 4E. Yes there Is I'm playing a Nartaki Elf (Gunslinger Adept)myself and he's (now after ca 100 KArma) quite effective and especial versatile as well as in close Combat (4 Kukri ) or with 2-3 SMGs etc @Splitting the Pool There are Modifiers (positive like Specialisation,Tracerammo or in close Combat Reach and personalised Grip) that are added AFTER splitting the Pool.Negative Ones like Wound mod, Distance,Visibility,Cover are subtracted from all Pools (of course) and Skillmodifiers (Adept improved Skill, Reflexrecorder, some pos.Qualities) that raise the Skill and these are included BEFORE splitting the Pool And Yes I know the FAQ but they... Generally speaking/writing Akimbo shooting,especially with 4 Arms, is great if its a High Noon Situation and with a optimised Char or if its against a small Number of Mooks He who Dances like Shiva Medicineman |
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Jan 27 2012, 11:46 AM
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#13
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,700 Joined: 1-July 10 Member No.: 18,778 |
One of the interesting things about the six-armed shooter is that you end up not actually needing to be better than passable with guns in the first place; stat+skill of 6 is fine, you really just care about getting modifiers.
Udoshi, I'm curious what modifiers you had in mind. The ones I managed to dig up were: Red Dot Sight Tracer Ammo Specialization TacNet My thought was to make a Technomancer; use a TacNet CF to get a 5+ rating Tacnet, have tricked-out drones that can stay on it, and hopefully have teammates who are willing to jam a pile of sensors on themselves to be able to run a rating 6 TacNet or something. You only need to be meh alright at shooting on its own to kamurder people, and you can still be a decently good hacker (although you probably say screw rigging and just have pokesprites do it for you). |
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Jan 27 2012, 12:44 PM
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#14
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,803 Joined: 3-February 08 From: Finland Member No.: 15,628 |
Tacnet has a max rating of 4.
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Jan 27 2012, 02:33 PM
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#15
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,507 Joined: 11-November 08 Member No.: 16,582 |
Where's the red dot sight from?
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Jan 27 2012, 02:57 PM
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#16
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,236 Joined: 27-July 10 Member No.: 18,860 |
@Medicineman
QUOTE ("FAQ") A dice pool is generally Skill (+ Specialization) + Attribute + anything else that adds directly to the dice pool but is not listed as a dice pool modifier (foci, certain augmentations, etc.). When splitting the pool the player divides these dice however they want, keeping at least one die for each test. Dice pool modifiers (from certain augmentations, darkness, smoke, etc.) are then applied to each test separately. Thats actually what you wrote, exept for the secializations. I reread the rules and they are not called dicepool modifiers. (So if only modifiers are added afterwards, they are added before splitting the pool. But it is dubious, because they are neither called dicepool boni just told they are added to the test...) Would have been great if they really made a list of which boni is what for the FAQ. So you had one source to look in... I am a bit under the impression the whole thing was a bit overlooked. So modifiers where supposed to be only what is written down in the modifier table but then they kept adding... (Becuase if you follow the logic all dicepool modifiers for ranged combat in the core book, need by definition to be in this table on page 140.) @Dakka Dakka I guess he is thinking of laser sight. |
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Jan 27 2012, 03:18 PM
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#17
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,803 Joined: 3-February 08 From: Finland Member No.: 15,628 |
Where's the red dot sight from? Gun Heaven And Irion specialization is a dice pool modifier, as per the following rule QUOTE (SR4A 61) Unless otherwise stated, any modier mentioned is considered to be a dice pool modier The FAQ just utterly fails to follow the actual rules, once again. |
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Jan 27 2012, 04:12 PM
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#18
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,236 Joined: 27-July 10 Member No.: 18,860 |
QUOTE ("Corebook") These modifiers can result from injuries and situational factors that affect what the character is trying to do. Please quote the sentance above too... They are talking about injuries and situational factors. (Visibility etc.) Like I said, thats quite questionable with specialisations. |
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Jan 27 2012, 04:57 PM
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#19
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,700 Joined: 1-July 10 Member No.: 18,778 |
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Jan 27 2012, 09:46 PM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 983 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 326 |
My question is are there any good way's to build a character around the Shiva Arms meta-quality in 4E. Are there any answers to this question that don't involve the number of attack dice such a character might roll? [Um, and is there a less dickish way to ask that question? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ] |
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Jan 27 2012, 10:01 PM
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#21
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Advocatus Diaboli Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 |
No, and no.
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Jan 27 2012, 10:03 PM
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#22
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Immortal Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,358 Joined: 2-December 07 From: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada Member No.: 14,465 |
The advantage is pistol in one hand, magazine in second hand, grenade in third hand, and soykaff in fourth hand. Combat and kaff at the same time!
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Jan 27 2012, 10:23 PM
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#23
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Advocatus Diaboli Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 |
Agreed. It's silly enough to use 2 guns at once, let alone more. Be creative about extra arms, and remember there's a reason most people don't have them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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Jan 27 2012, 10:26 PM
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#24
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,803 Joined: 3-February 08 From: Finland Member No.: 15,628 |
With 4 hands you can suppress 4 corridors at the same time, if you find yourself in the intersection with baddies coming from every way (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)
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Jan 27 2012, 10:44 PM
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#25
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Immortal Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,358 Joined: 2-December 07 From: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada Member No.: 14,465 |
With 4 hands you can suppress 4 corridors at the same time, if you find yourself in the intersection with baddies coming from every way (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) Four arms, standard stereo vision.Still, if you go for blindfire with some Yamaha Sakura Fubukis with EX-ex or Suppression Rounds (One of the NON-Munchie items in War!) and that might actually be effective. Especially if you mod them for Full-Auto and have some gear to handle the recoil. (Or just don't care because it's suppressive fire.). At the very least, it'd really increase you P2.0 Rating if you had a cool Muzzle Flare Effect from the Gas Port Compensators! And we all know that's more important if you're 'Running in LA! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) EDIT: Or make like Revy @ 1:20. |
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